Major Change Should = Forma Refund/re-Forma

[(PSN)atpbx]

Leveling a frame to 30 again and again is easy? Pretty sure it's actually quite time consuming.

 

Especially seeing as we seem to be on subsistence XP for kills these days.

 

And for situations like this, with major stat changes to a weapon or frame, I would be allowing the item/Frame in question to remain at its current rank and Forma status and then allowing the player to change the polarities of those slots that he has paid for to take into account the stat changes.

 

So If I have a 4 forma Braton Prime, and they eventually get round to buffing it, once its done, the first time I select it after the changes I am presented with an option to change the polarities of the forma I have invested (while keeping my current points as well) to take into account the nerfs/buffs.

 

Its not rocket science, it doesnt cost anyone any money, but most importantly, it generates good will among the player base which is always a good thing.

Edited September 11, 2014 by (PS4)atpbx

[Loswaith]

a good example of this is with the developers of path of exile. when vaal was released and the whole passive skill tree was changed, every character was offered a one time respec.

...

The equivalent for warframe however is that you can change your warframe "skilldrasil" at any time you want by simply changing mods.  The Radial Blind change was the equivlent of changing the value of one node/path on the skilldrasil.

 

 

Honestly you dont need to forma to make any builds (sure you cant always use max rank mods to make it though). 

You can happily make a blind build on an unformaed Excal , while you forma to specialise into maxamising that build.  It doesnt prevent you from making any other build either, you just cant make them as strong as a maximised one or in some cases even a generalised frame that you have focused into a specialisation.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Loswaith

[Azawarau]

That is not an argument, honestly. Courts regularly throw EULA's out the window because they are often deceptively introduced and not explained clearly to the end user.

 

Aside, refunding Forma I do not think is the answer... Longer-sighted Forma placement is, however.

 

I rarely put more than 2-3 Forma in 'frames because I like to build them in different ways, and those 2-3 Forma usually have at least one Tactical (~) and one Defensive (D) polarity. 

Im calling BS

 

Mot players dont read

 

They just scroll tot he bottom and agree

 

This gets its own response.

 

2 things you need to understand.

 

Beta is not some special shield games that are released make drastic changes to their game play constantly. Archeage 1.2, GW2 ele nerfs, WoW vanilla shammy nerfs, etc, Being in "Beta" is not some special status that means major changes can only happen during that time. During the lifetime of a game major changes will happen regardless of being in Beta or released.

 

The second I didn't ask for a physical money back refund but a refund of the polarity spots. I said it should be locked to the frame you originally spent the formas on in the first place. You say adapt. All I asked DE was to facilitate that rather than forcing us ot buy new forma to do that.If we make a major investment into a frame and they choose to change what it scales with or how it works in a certain perception one could accuse them of doing so to nickel and dime us for formas. I do not think this is the case but if one doesn't realize that this is a side benefit to DE making changes then the do not understand the value of a dollar.

Ok screw the Beta shield

 

"Warframe" itself is known and has been known for a long time to make major changes

 

And honestly

 

Chances are you can reuse your polarized slots fo the most part

 

An entire redo isnt likely needed and you can likely forma once or twice to make up for the loss

[Monolake]

No, or they wont change anything and the game will rot.

 

Also consider all these free giveouts as your refund.  DEL is too generouis, most of the F2P games would make you pay or grind for days for the stuff that you can easily obtain in WF. Formas are easy to get now in T3S

Even all these never-dropping mods like Crimson Dervish and Bite are being given out on 24h alerts. 

Edited September 11, 2014 by Monolake

[TwiceDead]

I don't think that's right. 

You chose to Forma whatever you chose to Forma, DE didn't make that choice for you, hence you're just going to have to deal with whatever changes DE makes. 

 

Leveling a frame to 30 again and again is easy? Pretty sure it's actually quite time consuming.

It's definitely not hard, it's just time consuming. Hell it's not even time consuming if you buy a booster. This is all thanks to the payment model DE has chosen, and it's what we're stuck with. It's either your money or your time. 

[DSpite]

1. Need =/= should

 

2. That analogy doesn't hold. Stores don't break into your home and smash your purchases with a hammer.  Whatever physical item you bought can't be changed by them after you already purchased it.

 

3. You lose what you paid for.  It no longer functions as it did before the nerf and the polarity setup that worked so well before can be total garbage after the change.

 

You obviously have not played EvE Online, where you can buy $1000 in Plexes, undock with them in your ship, and find out that $1000 of your real money that was converted to Plex is now totally destroyed from the game system and gone forever, and NON REFUNDABLE.

 

You can also buy a ton of ships with real cash, park them for 2 months, and come back and find them changed horribly.

 

If you don't like this thing to happen you should stop playing games right now, seriously.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

I find it amusing that some players do not understand how changing how power strength or duration affects an ability would have a dramatic impact on the polarity of the installed forma(s).  In some cases the only way to make a specific build work is by using multiple D or V polarities, which are entirely limiting for other mods.

 

Think about it... say you want to maximize range on a skill that doesn't use power strength.  Obviously you are going to use Overextended (D) and Stretch (-).  Now say you want more survivability so you can use Redirection (D) and either Vitality (D) or Vigor (D).  Now say DE makes Power Strength actually affect the ability in question.  Obviously you no longer need Overextended (D) so what do you do with that polarity slot?  In this case you are not forced to use Quick Thinking (D) or use both Vitality (D) and Vigor (D).  Worse yet, the ability now requires Power Strength mods which both use V polarities so you have to add forma to compensate for these as the costs are 11 mod points or higher.

 

As you can see, changing how an ability works has a dramatic effect on which mods, and thereby which polarities, are required for a specific build.  It is only fair that if DE is going to continue to balance their game that they allow players the means to make changes to the very same things.

 

My solution:  500k credit cost to change the polarity of an installed forma and a 48 hour stasis period to make the change during which the affected warframe is not usable.  If you want to change 2 forma polarities this process will cost you 1 million credits and 96 hours of not being able to use the affected warframe.  Still, it is a small price to pay for DE ruining your build with a balance change, especially in the case of a frame like Trinity where they continue to make changes.  Also, note that if Trinity Prime is released, she will require all new forma invested so this solution would not allow players to remove installed forma, only make changes to the installed formas' polarities.

[Kestral9999]

Actually does anyone read them? even yourself you know no one read them most of people skip it , and it's not like we have the right to decline it

You absolutely do have that right. You just can't play the game.

[TrinityPrime]

Ya, I'd love to get one or more Forma Primes for having to respec my Trinity.

 

Forma Prime: Change polarity on a weapon or frame without resetting its level.

[Janzer]

Trinity got "ruined" for some players with the Blessing nerf. It provided 28 secs of godmode to the whole team. It even got nerfed again this update.

 

Ember got "ruined""  for others with the Overheat removal. Provided 94% damage reduction to a caster frame and dealt 200 flat damage per sec. That's more reduction than Valkyr with maxed Steel Fiber and maxed power str Warcry.

 

Now Excal supposedly got "ruined" with the RB nerf. I agree his other abilities aren't good but RB made enemies standing targets that couldn't fight back and you had a 4x melee multiplier. All of this in a 50m range by using 12 energy. It was beyond op.

 

Either keep playing him or choose another frame and wait for his rework.

 

Thank you.

[Davoodoo]

-snip-

I really wonder what build do you use that you need that many formas...

http://goo.gl/zCc5ze

My ember build, 2 forma. 15 sec wof, 60% efficiency,+30% power, -21% range.

Near instant stun from accelerant boosts survi so high range isnt needed, fleeting is a must especially for accelerant/wof combo, natural talent is a must, range on wof is sufficient.

Only real improvement that could be made here is adding streamline, which would replace redirection and still fit with non matching polarities.

Blind rage sacrifices too much efficiency to be worth it on ember, overextended nerfs accelerant and wof, duration is sufficient already for wof and ring of fire, accelerant is not affected.

Build with improvement

http://goo.gl/BKPia3

Still 2 forma and required only additional forma after corrupted mods were added, rework didnt require any changes at all.

[Phatose]

I actually think the system is fine the way it is.

 

Different games approach this from different angles, and easy refunds of time and investment are hardly guaranteed.  For example, the recent 2.1 patch in Diablo 3 changed a fair number of skills, and certainly changed builds. 

 

While you can change your characters skill set in D3 at the drop of a hat, the majority of your build is effectively determined by your equipment.  Blizzard has been only too happy to require players to re-gear when mechanics change, as any wizard who's had to go from Frozen Orb to Conflagrate to Firebird's in that game is well aware.

 

Changes requiring players to invest additional time and energy to switch to a different build happens in retail games all the time.  It's not a big deal, and a couple of Forma and re-levels is actually a tiny investment compared to what some other games - like D3 - have required.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Phatose

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I actually think the system is fine the way it is.

 

Different games approach this from different angles, and easy refunds of time and investment are hardly guaranteed.  For example, the recent 2.1 patch in Diablo 3 changed a fair number of skills, and certainly changed builds. 

 

While you can change your characters skill set in D3 at the drop of a hat, the majority of your build is effectively determined by your equipment.  Blizzard has been only too happy to require players to re-gear when mechanics change, as any wizard who's had to go from Frozen Orb to Conflagrate to Firebird's in that game is well aware.

 

Changes requiring players to invest additional time and energy to switch to a different build happens in retail games all the time.  It's not a big deal, and a couple of Forma and re-levels is actually a tiny investment compared to what some other games - like D3 - have required.

No one is asking for new weapons and or new mods here. We are asking for a skill reset (i.e. forma reset).

[Phatose]

I'm not at all convinced that forma reset is equivalent to a D3 skill reset.  Rather, it's equivalent to a re-gearing.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I'm not at all convinced that forma reset is equivalent to a D3 skill reset.  Rather, it's equivalent to a re-gearing.

skill reset = re-forma

 

re-gearing = getting new weapons and mods

[Phatose]

I'd say a skill reset is simply swapping around your mods. 

[Loveshack]

*writes "wash me!" in the dust on my forma'ed Galatine*

[Sev7n]

I'm sorry but forma's are not hard to acquire, they take 24 hours to make, and leveling a frame to 30 is not difficult. You can reach 30 after a few runs on sechura.

 

yes it sucks when you forma your gear to have it tweaked down the road making your forma's on it useless but its not difficult or as time consuming as your making it out to be. You can easily fix your frame or weapon over the weekend in 1 day.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I'd say a skill reset is simply swapping around your mods. 

Which polarities have a very big effect on.

[Phatose]

Let's not continue this.  I feel expecting players to invest a few hours after a change if they are intent on keeping at the absolute maximum effectiveness is OK.  You don't seem to.  We disagree, that's cool.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Let's not continue this.  I feel expecting players to invest a few hours after a change if they are intent on keeping at the absolute maximum effectiveness is OK.  You don't seem to.  We disagree, that's cool.

It's cool.  You are wrong and want to back out of the discussion.  I understand.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

@Davoodoo

 

1) When did Ember enter my post?  She's one of the few frames I have mastered and sold as I find her mostly pointless for end-game content.

 

2) Just because you only use 2 forma for one frame does not invalidate other builds that use more forma.

 

3) My point stands that V and D polarity mods are extremely limiting so any balance changes that alter how power strength works can dramatically impact what polarities are needed.

 

4) My solution only enhances the players' experience as it allows them to learn from previous mistakes and improve as they play instead of penalizing them.

[ra9una]

They don't have to do anything. You signed the EULA.

They now also own all your blue ballpoint pens.

[Loswaith]

skill reset = re-forma

 

re-gearing = getting new weapons and mods

Polarities arent a skill they are a bonus that lets you specialise.

 

You can have just about every mod combination (warframes 'skills') on a frame with out any polarities, you cant have them all maximised though (and quite frankly for the game proper you dont need them maximised).

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Polarities arent a skill they are a bonus that lets you specialise.

 

You can have just about every mod combination (warframes 'skills') on a frame with out any polarities, you cant have them all maximised though (and quite frankly for the game proper you dont need them maximised).

You can't de-level mods.