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Don't Change Player Choice With Nerfs


Nrininy
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Once upon a time, Trini was the only frame that could heal and be immortal.

Then Valkyr and Oberon came out, received buffs/reworks from DE designers.

 

Once upon a time, Excel was the only frame that could CC a huge load of mobs by using Radial Blind before the players are detected.

Then Mirage came, with a high damage plus relatively low mana cost huge blinding Disco Ball.

 

Now all those "Immortals" no longer exist. Frost needs duration, range, strength and probably efficiency at end-game; Nova needs all except for range if she could sacrifice her exploding chain (Which was one of her identity); Trini can no longer be a end-game frame because of the 90% damage reduction cap (Which does nothing for her teammates when they can't even take 10% damage from a 60+level frame), and was demoted to a busy healer that needs to spam EV, Link and Blessing to keep her energy control, her own and her whole squad's safety.

 

What now? Excal, a low cost CC frame for late game can't blind a sneaky target that hides behind a block and 1 shot you in the face after the cast.

He now cannot compete with Loki and Mirage. They can both effect enemies behind walls. Why not "Balance" them?

 

Trini can't even be a healer now because of the long duration on her Blessing or the low health and shield restore. She can't CC, she is squishy, and now she can't even heal properly. Is this a hard sell for Oberon, who can heal, remove debuffs, huge AoE CC and others? Why not nerf Hysteria when Valkyr is already tanky af and don't really need that invulnerability?

 

These nerfs doesn't make any sense. Excal is a starter frame, and you nerfed him to make newbies' days even harder? The first "Rework" (AKA nerf) on Blessing pretty much destroyed the identity of Trini already, along with the insanely overpowered Oberon buffs, here came the real nerf to her?

 

There are waaaay more overpowered AoE abilities that should be nerfed before Excal's Blind, like the recent rework for Oberon, he don't even need the strength if he only want to CC all the time without any delay between casts. Ash's Blade Storm only does massive damage and bring no benefits to any of his teammates but it got buffed instead. Ember've been a useless squishy frame for a long long time because her power is stopped at ~level 40. Mag's Pull does similar effect as Banshee's Sonic BOOM however does a huge load of damage instead of almost 0. Saryn has a real high burst and is really tanky. ......

 

The list can go on. It should be the players' choice to choose between frames that has similar effect, instead of deploying nerfs to force players changing their favourite frames.

 

REWORK abilities if they don't feel like in your meta, dear Devs, instead of keep nerfing, adding other requirements or even just REMOVE the best from frames.

 

-A long time Trini, Excal and Loki lover

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My mains are Excaliber and Trinity, and I have found no problem with the reworks. Radial Blind now makes sense for the cast (Light cannot go through objects irl) and Trinity's blessing just requires a different strategy to use. I would hardly call Oberon hard CC, because his abilities do not actually last for more than a second. Not to mention it's a good thing that "Immortal Frames" do not exist - the game's not supposed to be a cakewalk.

 

As for Ember... Yes, needs a buff. lol

 

However, a change in how an ability works is not a nerf; it merely requires adaptive build structure.

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I can understand the need to nerf/buff stuff to make game more balanced but please, please be transparent about it. I don't want to be surprised in T4 S. No to stealth buffs. It will also be good to open up a general discussion on the said nerf/buff before it is applied to collect feedback and more ideas.

Edited by kurohelios
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My mains are Excaliber and Trinity, and I have found no problem with the reworks. Radial Blind now makes sense for the cast (Light cannot go through objects irl) and Trinity's blessing just requires a different strategy to use. I would hardly call Oberon hard CC, because his abilities do not actually last for more than a second. Not to mention it's a good thing that "Immortal Frames" do not exist - the game's not supposed to be a cakewalk.

 

As for Ember... Yes, needs a buff. lol

 

However, a change in how an ability works is not a nerf; it merely requires adaptive build structure.

 

 

You are making a lot of sense, because as it seems enemies eyes are positioned around their knees ...

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I don't even understand why DE bothers with Line of Sight Mechanic anyway ? This game's engine is based on Unreal Tournement 3 (or so I heard) so of course it can't handle complex crap, this is why RAGDOLLING LOOKS AND FEELS like crap I mean, seriously, look at enemeis going up or down a ledge, they spazm like hell.

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The list can go on. It should be the players' choice to choose between frames that has similar effect, instead of deploying nerfs to force players changing their favourite frames.

 

REWORK abilities if they don't feel like in your meta, dear Devs, instead of keep nerfing, adding other requirements or even just REMOVE the best from frames.

I don't see anything wrong with your second paragraph, I would totally love to see a few skill reworks to make them more relevant for Warframe combat as it stands.

The problem I see with your logic in the first paragraph is that the point of skill changes (ostensibly) isn't to change player choice. It's to change the reason why players choose what they choose because of an objective problem, admitted or not, in the consequences of that choice. It's an abstract, indistinct difference that'll be missed by a looooot of people, but it's there.

 

The devs clearly aren't directly forcing player choice in any case, and this is where your logic - I find - starts to melt down. 'Reworking' and 'nerfing' have often confused meanings, and so it becomes important to make the distinction above to be able to draw the line. Otherwise the next time a skill is reworked, people will be assigning it the label of 'buff' or 'nerf' without looking at it objectively from the standpoint which differentiates 'forcing player choice' and 'changing consequences of said choice'.

 

Nitpicky, I know. But I reckon it's applicable when we're talking about these situations.

 

Which weren't not, if we're referencing the changes to Excalibro's Radial Blind. See Einde's comment here.

Edited by Vastaren
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Exactly, they just keep ruining frames that people like, First it was ember, then it was vauban, then it was frost, then nyx, now trinity and excalibur. They aren't balancing, they are just eliminating  player choice.

 

It is ridiculous to say that Excalibur's nerf was warranted to radial blind when a parasitic eximus can drain  your energy in seconds from 30 meters and without line of sight.

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Once upon a time, Trini was the only frame that could heal and be immortal.

Then Valkyr and Oberon came out, received buffs/reworks from DE designers.

 

Once upon a time, Excel was the only frame that could CC a huge load of mobs by using Radial Blind before the players are detected.

Then Mirage came, with a high damage plus relatively low mana cost huge blinding Disco Ball.

 

Now all those "Immortals" no longer exist. Frost needs duration, range, strength and probably efficiency at end-game; Nova needs all except for range if she could sacrifice her exploding chain (Which was one of her identity); Trini can no longer be a end-game frame because of the 90% damage reduction cap (Which does nothing for her teammates when they can't even take 10% damage from a 60+level frame), and was demoted to a busy healer that needs to spam EV, Link and Blessing to keep her energy control, her own and her whole squad's safety.

 

What now? Excal, a low cost CC frame for late game can't blind a sneaky target that hides behind a block and 1 shot you in the face after the cast.

He now cannot compete with Loki and Mirage. They can both effect enemies behind walls. Why not "Balance" them?

 

Trini can't even be a healer now because of the long duration on her Blessing or the low health and shield restore. She can't CC, she is squishy, and now she can't even heal properly. Is this a hard sell for Oberon, who can heal, remove debuffs, huge AoE CC and others? Why not nerf Hysteria when Valkyr is already tanky af and don't really need that invulnerability?

 

These nerfs doesn't make any sense. Excal is a starter frame, and you nerfed him to make newbies' days even harder? The first "Rework" (AKA nerf) on Blessing pretty much destroyed the identity of Trini already, along with the insanely overpowered Oberon buffs, here came the real nerf to her?

 

There are waaaay more overpowered AoE abilities that should be nerfed before Excal's Blind, like the recent rework for Oberon, he don't even need the strength if he only want to CC all the time without any delay between casts. Ash's Blade Storm only does massive damage and bring no benefits to any of his teammates but it got buffed instead. Ember've been a useless squishy frame for a long long time because her power is stopped at ~level 40. Mag's Pull does similar effect as Banshee's Sonic BOOM however does a huge load of damage instead of almost 0. Saryn has a real high burst and is really tanky. ......

 

The list can go on. It should be the players' choice to choose between frames that has similar effect, instead of deploying nerfs to force players changing their favourite frames.

 

REWORK abilities if they don't feel like in your meta, dear Devs, instead of keep nerfing, adding other requirements or even just REMOVE the best from frames.

 

-A long time Trini, Excal and Loki lover

can agree with you on almost all points except Ash imo he was designed to be a solo frame and because there was to much butt hurt he was nerfed to the point where bladestorm is all but useless for solo missions.

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Removing player choice? Not really. Rhino used to be immortal with Iron Skin now he isn't. He is still the frame I see the most.

 

Trinity still works fine.

 

Ember is also still usable (don't use WoF for late game).

 

Nyx is also still fine as is Vauban. Hell I'd say Vauban is still $&*&*#(%& good.

 

If you really think Excal is broken (he isn't) just wait for his rework.

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What now? Excal, a low cost CC frame for late game can't blind a sneaky target that hides behind a block and 1 shot you in the face after the cast.

He now cannot compete with Loki and Mirage. They can both effect enemies behind walls. Why not "Balance" them?

And there will be a new hate why Nerfed Loki and Mirage?! 

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Players shouldn't be able to choose to be immortal and make enemies stand still forever. That's not good game design. I believe the player choice argument has some merits, but what you're using it to argue for is a bit flawed. The end goal of balance is to make it so that choices have equal "weight", and one choice does not overshadow all others.

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Players shouldn't be able to choose to be immortal and make enemies stand still forever. That's not good game design. I believe the player choice argument has some merits, but what you're using it to argue for is a bit flawed. The end goal of balance is to make it so that choices have equal "weight", and one choice does not overshadow all others.

Mirage's always been a great choice for CC. I like her more than Excal on this because she has good utilities.

Why make Excal only be able to blind the first enemy in any angle?

 

Trinity's main point is to protect teammates by healing them (Or making them invulnerable before the "Rework") instanly, however that doesn't really help anyone when their teammates are rather squishy and got the focus by enemies.

The Oberon rework already made him shine really brighter than Trini, with his extra tankiness and CC. He heals, he removes debuffs, he does CC, he does damage. I can't see any reason behind this to continue lower Trini's power.

 

If I could start everything again, I would definitely choose Mirage and Oberon over Excal and Trini, just by knowing what their skills do and their viability. When there are already some stronger frames, why bother changing some "weaker" frames? They are already struggling on their current position, and the Devs still want to lower their value?

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