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To Everyone At De Who Reads The Forums


Metalarcher
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For a long time I did not fully understand the problems you all face when using the forums for feedback, but today I have seen, firsthand, the amount of problems your players can make for you based on the smallest possible slip-ups...or even based on reasonable changes made to the game.

 

Excalibur's Radial Blind.  Of course you knew that's what I was referring to.  The original bug (being that enemies behind other enemies could not be affected) was the part plenty of people had a gripe with, and with the acknowledgement of this they did not care that enemies behind cover would not be getting hit by it, because it makes sense from a gameplay standpoint that enemies should be able to avoid certain death sentences like Radial Blind (if the enemy cannot shoot and thus defend himself, he is as good as dead).

 

But then there are others thinking that Radial Blind should stay as it was, that this change was ridiculous and unreasonable.  Why did they think that?  Because it takes away some of their "power."  What they fail to understand about "power" is that it is only good to the point that you can use it to compete with your enemy.  Beyond that it is excessive.  A metaphor I use often is that many portions of the game make the Tenno feel like a large person with a heavy boot, and the Corpus or Grineer or Infested feel like ants.  Removing some of that and bringing those ants to a more reasonable level with us is something I've always wanted to see, and it's changes like Radial Blind's (hopefully in tandem with others in the future) that make me have hope that the "game" of fighting our enemies will become more balanced and meaningful instead of a pointless steamroll, as many players would rather have it...

 

I'm writing this because I care about the game, and thus I care about the game's developers.  You may not really need a pep-talk from me (you've gotten this far largely on your own, haven't you?) but I figure it couldn't hurt.  Do what you think is right, make the game you want to make, and make it well.  That's all I can ask of you.  If it clashes with any of your players--including myself--but is a step forward in the way of whatever kind of "fun" you want to create, do it.  People have this uncanny notion that they know exactly what this game is supposed to be, but then you examine them on their reasoning and most if not all of it is subjective.

 

I understand that there's a tinge of irony here--I'm obviously writing this because I agree with the Radial Blind nerf as you intended (all aware enemies in a radius affected except those behind cover) and want to see more of that in the game.  But regardless, whether something specific is or isn't fun for me, if you can do what you want to do well and without the criticisms of opposing and irrelevant viewpoints intruding on your creative ideas, I think you will make a far better game than if you allow them to take control of the game simply because they "want it."

 

In summary, anyone who's given it any thought knows that Warframe is a game, and, like all creative works, whenever you make a game it isn't for the players.  It's for you.  If other people who share your tastes like it, then you can make money, but of course that's not the main point--it just allows to to work on it more frequently and more carefully.  If you want to make Warframe an incredibly ambitious 3rd person PvE shooter/hack and slash with many subgenres integrated to fan out the gameplay (dojos, birdlifters, conclaves, etc.) do that, and do it well.  Make sure it's about what you want it to be about.  For example, do not make grinding and RNG important to the game if they do not factor into your vision.  If you wanted to make a sandbox, make that, and make it well.  If you want to make Warframe into an RTS even, do that, and do it well.  Make whatever you want, but make it well in the same respect.

 

Do not compromise your inspired vision for the sake of the many who simply want to use you to get the game they would've made out of you, and likewise do not turn away those who truly care about your vision and give feedback that will help you meet your goals more effectively.

 

But of course, that's just assuming you didn't already think of all that...

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Most of the nerfs come from people asking for them in the first place... (unconceivable imo)

 

Besides sure they should respect their vision but if no one likes the game and no one plays it because of bad changes, will they be able to make any money and go on ?

 

Probably not professionally, but why should that matter?  If they try to make a game everyone likes and compromise in doing so, whether they succeed or fail they will still have wasted their potential by creating a work that was insincere.

 

For example, if any great painter suddenly started painting cats because the internet likes cats and they wanted to monetize that, would he have any authenticity as a painter anymore?  He would become a businessman.

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For a long time I did not fully understand the problems you all face when using the forums for feedback, but today I have seen, firsthand, the amount of problems your players can make for you based on the smallest possible slip-ups...or even based on reasonable changes made to the game.

 

Excalibur's Radial Blind.  Of course you knew that's what I was referring to.  The original bug (being that enemies behind other enemies could not be affected) was the part plenty of people had a gripe with, and with the acknowledgement of this they did not care that enemies behind cover would not be getting hit by it, because it makes sense from a gameplay standpoint that enemies should be able to avoid certain death sentences like Radial Blind (if the enemy cannot shoot and thus defend himself, he is as good as dead).

 

But then there are others thinking that Radial Blind should stay as it was, that this change was ridiculous and unreasonable.  Why did they think that?  Because it takes away some of their "power."  What they fail to understand about "power" is that it is only good to the point that you can use it to compete with your enemy.  Beyond that it is excessive.  A metaphor I use often is that many portions of the game make the Tenno feel like a large person with a heavy boot, and the Corpus or Grineer or Infested feel like ants.  Removing some of that and bringing those ants to a more reasonable level with us is something I've always wanted to see, and it's changes like Radial Blind's (hopefully in tandem with others in the future) that make me have hope that the "game" of fighting our enemies will become more balanced and meaningful instead of a pointless steamroll, as many players would rather have it...

 

I'm writing this because I care about the game, and thus I care about the game's developers.  You may not really need a pep-talk from me (you've gotten this far largely on your own, haven't you?) but I figure it couldn't hurt.  Do what you think is right, make the game you want to make, and make it well.  That's all I can ask of you.  If it clashes with any of your players--including myself--but is a step forward in the way of whatever kind of "fun" you want to create, do it.  People have this uncanny notion that they know exactly what this game is supposed to be, but then you examine them on their reasoning and most if not all of it is subjective.

 

I understand that there's a tinge of irony here--I'm obviously writing this because I agree with the Radial Blind nerf as you intended (all aware enemies in a radius affected except those behind cover) and want to see more of that in the game.  But regardless, whether something specific is or isn't fun for me, if you can do what you want to do well and without the criticisms of opposing and irrelevant viewpoints intruding on your creative ideas, I think you will make a far better game than if you allow them to take control of the game simply because they "want it."

 

In summary, anyone who's given it any thought knows that Warframe is a game, and, like all creative works, whenever you make a game it isn't for the players.  It's for you.  If other people who share your tastes like it, then you can make money, but of course that's not the main point--it just allows to to work on it more frequently and more carefully.  If you want to make Warframe an incredibly ambitious 3rd person PvE shooter/hack and slash with many subgenres integrated to fan out the gameplay (dojos, birdlifters, conclaves, etc.) do that, and do it well.  Make sure it's about what you want it to be about.  For example, do not make grinding and RNG important to the game if they do not factor into your vision.  If you wanted to make a sandbox, make that, and make it well.  If you want to make Warframe into an RTS even, do that, and do it well.  Make whatever you want, but make it well in the same respect.

 

Do not compromise your inspired vision for the sake of the many who simply want to use you to get the game they would've made out of you, and likewise do not turn away those who truly care about your vision and give feedback that will help you meet your goals more effectively.

 

But of course, that's just assuming you didn't already think of all that...

This is awesome. But I would like to add to your statement and that. Yes it is conceivable that cover should block attacks in whatever aspect of the game that they are delivered in. But to be fair in the name of Balance shouldn't it also be taken into consideration that if the player are also using cover that they should not be successfully attack by enemies, If this theory is sound then why has it not been address in that aspect and why is it that we the players can be harmed by AOE attacks from the enemy but we are not allowed to attack those that use cover? Please answer that question for me. But don't do it here do it in the Game and as the OP said do it well.

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 whenever you make a game it isn't for the players.  It's for you. 

 

Metalarcher, while I agree with the spirit of the Radial Blind nerf (if not the execution, or timing, or priority compared to other frames, and fixing his kit overall)...the statement you've written above is incorrect.

 

DE is not a group of buddies sitting around making a game in their basement because they think it's fun. They are a huge global corporation with shareholders, investors...and dozens of employees who have families to feed.

 

Yes, a game is part art. But running a company also makes it part business.

 

I'm not suggesting that DE should cave to the loudest segment, especially when that segment is requesting changes that would hurt the game. DE should always do what's best for the success of WF.

 

And despite the cries of pain whenever something is reduced in power; balance will add to the longevity of the game.

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Probably not professionally, but why should that matter?  If they try to make a game everyone likes and compromise in doing so, whether they succeed or fail they will still have wasted their potential by creating a work that was insincere.

 

For example, if any great painter suddenly started painting cats because the internet likes cats and they wanted to monetize that, would he have any authenticity as a painter anymore?  He would become a businessman.

I understand your point but DE is a ''for profit'' business, wether you want it or not they are making the game to MAKE MONEY and nothing else.

 

This can apply to lots of things in this world but sadly its all about money these days.

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I agree with OP.
Furthermore I think that there was an excessive amount of post whining and moaning about a change, that if you ask me, only makes sense. Unless the flash from radial blind is so strong, that it litterally lights up every surface to such an extent, that it'll blind you even in cover, but that seems like a far-fetched explanation, even in this space-magic governed game.

All in all, more balance and reasonable changes, less OP and steamrolling.

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I understand your point but DE is a ''for profit'' business, wether you want it or not they are making the game to MAKE MONEY and nothing else.

 

This can apply to lots of things in this world but sadly its all about money these days.

 

If that is truly the case, then life is not worth living.  Money is an arbitrary standard, and a means instead of an end at that.  Do you know to what end money is a means to?  Experiences.  A life devoid of that is nothing at all.  And what is a game, really?  A means to experiences for the player.  It is a creative work.  Even a form of art in that respect (oh that debate has gone on for so long, but isn't art just anything created which gives meaning and an experience to and for the viewer?).

 

So the way I see it there are four (six, but the extra two are negligible for the sake of this example) possible outcomes regarding money vs. art:  It is created for art and makes money, and is successful in both ways.  It is created for art and does not make money, and is successful in one way.  It is created for money and inadvertently makes art (a very unlikely scenario mind you, and at which point it may as well have been created for art anyway unless it was completely by accident) and succeeds in both ways, or it is created for money and makes no art (far more likely) and succeeds in one way.

 

So if we assume that if it is created for art, it will always be art, and if it is created for money, it will always make money, then what should be pursued?  "Money," which is more important to survival, or "art," which is more important to living?

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Just a note, DE said that it was actually test balancing stuff from a dev build that they did not intend to go out, thus it not being in the patch notes.

 

The changes were intended on DE's side, but the changes were not finished and were not intended to make it into the public build just yet.

 

Probably slipped in with the Trinity changes they did intend to push out or something.

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If that is truly the case, then life is not worth living.  Money is an arbitrary standard, and a means instead of an end at that.  Do you know to what end money is a means to?  Experiences.  A life devoid of that is nothing at all.  And what is a game, really?  A means to experiences for the player.  It is a creative work.  Even a form of art in that respect (oh that debate has gone on for so long, but isn't art just anything created which gives meaning and an experience to and for the viewer?).

 

So the way I see it there are four (six, but the extra two are negligible for the sake of this example) possible outcomes regarding money vs. art:  It is created for art and makes money, and is successful in both ways.  It is created for art and does not make money, and is successful in one way.  It is created for money and inadvertently makes art (a very unlikely scenario mind you, and at which point it may as well have been created for art anyway unless it was completely by accident) and succeeds in both ways, or it is created for money and makes no art (far more likely) and succeeds in one way.

 

So if we assume that if it is created for art, it will always be art, and if it is created for money, it will always make money, then what should be pursued?  "Money," which is more important to survival, or "art," which is more important to living?

I agree with you completely, money is not my priority in life at all.

 

Like my friend Bill Hicks one said (about music mind you) play from your @(*()$ heart !! I believe this 1000%

 

This is the way it should be but all business have one single goal: MONEY.

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I understand your point but DE is a ''for profit'' business, wether you want it or not they are making the game to MAKE MONEY and nothing else.

 

This can apply to lots of things in this world but sadly its all about money these days.

 

DE is a for profit business, true. But warframe is their baby and they put care into it most games will never see. It's not like they're just doing this to make cash, they care about this game on a personal level. Read any interview with them, it's obvious. Plus if they were just looking for money there would be no forums and no devstreams or primetime.

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DE is a for profit business, true. But warframe is their baby and they put care into it most games will never see. It's not like they're just doing this to make cash, they care about this game on a personal level. Read any interview with them, it's obvious. Plus if they were just looking for money there would be no forums and no devstreams or primetime.

Yes thats undeniable, they love their baby for sure and the game is oozing art everywhere it is gorgeous indeed, but every business is the same afterall, no clients = no money = no business.

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snip

 

In the end the format is only a bit more "legal" and "professional" than the "friends making a game because it's fun" scenario.  For example it is possible that DE may have to compromise their vision (if only temporarily, as is the nature of this specific game) to acquire funds with which they will create the game they wanted to create from the beginning, but lacked the money for it.

 

So I will amend my statement by saying that they should not compromise because they could make more money one way, but should if it gives them an opportunity to better the game that they would not have had if they had not compromised.  As you said, for the good of the game.  But not for the good of money.  Use it as a means, not an end.  The ideal "end" for money in this scenario is self-sustainability, such that they can work on the game using money as a means without having to worry about being able to feed and clothe themselves.

 

Running a game company is all well and good, but if the game serves the company instead of the company serving the game, then I can't imagine any good will come of it.

 

Also, on a lighter note, I do wholeheartedly agree with you on the "spirit of the Radial Blind change," in that I too would like to see more balance in the game as it will create a more meaningful challenge and, as you said again, longer-lasting gameplay.  Of course, that can only exist if DE is able to look past the players who only want to win and find the players who only want to have fun separate from them.

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Yes thats undeniable, they love their baby for sure and the game is oozing art everywhere it is gorgeous indeed, but every business is the same afterall, no clients = no money = no business.

 

I think you have it reversed.  No business = no money = no game.  In a math equation that would be saying the same thing, but order is very important in debates.  If the primary goal is the game, then money is an object which contributes to the game, but the game is what the money is going towards.

 

So I agree with you in the sense that a business should be created to make the money to fund the quality of the game, but money should never be the end.  The business, because it deals with money, should be used as a tool instead of as the product.

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People are silly. For the most part they cannot see the forest beyond the trees.

Having blind work on enemies hiding behind walls was a joke. The degree of the change is a little much as far as enemies behind enemies go, but apart from that it was fully justified

What even more people fail to realise is that this means excalibur is on the rebalancing table.

His super imba ggnore skill has been toned down, and now it is time to bring him up to par.

Blind had to be fixed and tested by us first so that his level of playability could be accurately judged and adjusted accordingly.

De know what they are doing, after all this is their job.

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...

DE is not a group of buddies sitting around making a game in their basement because they think it's fun. They are a huge global corporation with shareholders, investors...and dozens of employees who have families to feed.

...

I agree to most of what you said, but DE is not a huge corporation.

About the OP's. I'm sure DE is very appreciated for such thread, and I think they deserve it, too. But there are couple assumptions that are less than accurate. For one, "glitch" with regarding to Excal's RB; sliding and coptering were two of many accidental creations that DE later admitted and "legitimized" the utilities as parts of the game mechanics. About every players just love those utilities... it's like the iconic of the game.

On the other hands, about nothing for or in WF is set and stone. DE has been doing a lot of experiment with contents, updates and fixes and they are mostly built or created based on the community ideas, suggestion and responses. And someone who writes a page praising DE today could tomorrow writes up 50 pages complaining how DE is doing things wrong, when touching his favorite things in the game. It's all about building and making Warframe the best game tomorrow together with major consensus.

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