Pigeon Holed While Coptering...

[Ryouhi]

What's coptering?

Is it when you slide and then jump?

 

If so, then I think it's fine. Parkour seemed like an afterthought. Coptering, sliding, etc. does ruin the need for speed/sprint mods though.

No, that's 'butt-sliding'

Coptering is using the spin-attack of a usually fast melee weapon to fling yourself through a tile at ridiculous speed.

[UncommonUnicorn]

Coptering is when you jump, slide and slide-attack with certain weapons.

[cedekane]

Good afternoon,  

 

Question:  Is coptering advantageous as the sole mode of transportation.

 

Following are the race results I conducted.  The tests were conducted on Tesera Venus a tileset with both large and small rooms.  Tesera had only 2 types of elevators.  The 2 types of elevators took either 8 or 18 seconds depending on the elevator type, so that time was removed from the final time depending on the type of elevator encountered.  I tried to reflect realistic gameplay as much as possible and so falling into pits, running into laser doors, etc. were kept in the final times.  I used Loki Prime on all tests, all mods were maxed.  Invis was used for 99.999999% of the time.

 

Mod Loadout:  E. Siphon, Invis, Constitution, Quick Rest, Continuity, Mag Lev, Marathon, Rush, Streamline, Rage.

 

I ran 14 runs for both sets and pulled out the 2 fastest and slowest times to remove any outliers.  On Set 1 only sprinting, sliding and slingshotting were used.  On set 2 only sprinting and coptering.

 

Test run results:  

Set 1:  

2:30.3

2:15.2

2:00.9

2:12.6

1:53.5

2:43.5

2:46.8

2:10.8

1:52.3

2:23.4

2:50.1 - S

2:51 - S

1:45.2 - F

1:38.3 - F

AVG: 2:16.9

 

Set 2:

2:34.4

2:04

2:03

2:26.5

1:59.3

2:26.7

2:16.7

2:09.6

2:17.1

2:10.7

1:33.5 - F

2:36.6 - S

2:34.7 - S

1:40.4 - F

AVG : 2:14.76

 

The sample size is small.  If the trends continued into the hundreds, my results would suggest coptering used as the sole mode of transport does not have any advantages.  

 

(On a different note, running these has made me realize how much worse the movement system has gotten since I started playing.  The input for sprint in particular isn't very tight.  Wall running was tackier and sling shotting didn't used to "dud" as much as it does now.  Shame.)

 

The next test I want to shed some light on is whether movement is situational as others have suggested.  I'll be running Tessera again using copters (long halls, through laser doors) and sliding (shorter halls, when pits are present).  Logic says that this should be the fastest of the 3, but we should let the numbers speak for themselves.  I will be running these either later today or tomorrow.  Thanks.

 

TEST 1a

Question: Is coptering situational?  These reflect perfect or near perfect runs.  They imply the player knows when to copter and when to slide to maximize their speed and avoid traps.  There is just one set of results which I'll compare with the other results from test 1.

 

Test Results:

1:58.6

1:48.6

1:56.6

1:52.7

1:48.3

2:22.5

2:02.1

1:38.0

2:09.5

2:08.9

1:37.5-F

1:20.5-F

2:27.5-S

2:22.6-S

AVG:158:6

 

My results suggest that a combination of slides/sprints/copters does yield the quickest time.  By about 12-14% depending on which test you compare it to.  I also had the quickest individual time of the trials at a blazing 1:20.5.

 

I will note that this is probably going to have different results based on the tileset your running.  Coptering shines in mid to long stretches where there aren't a lot of curves.  Because of coptering's lack of accuracy, running or sliding can mean you won't fall into pits, or fall off stairs and have to do whole sections over again.

Edited September 17, 2014 by cedekane

[vleessjuu]

Honestly, I don't have anything against coptering per se, but what I don't like is that the most efficient form of movement basically requires you to spam the same button combination over and over. You know, like those adventure games where rolling (or something like that) is inexplicably faster than running and you just end up rolling everywhere, getting cramped fingers spamming the buttons.

Again, coptering is ok in my book, although I would be fine with it being taken down a notch. Other forms of movement just need to be up to par with coptering. In my opinion, running should always be the most efficient movement method for long distances, while other maneuvers should be for burst mobility.

Edited September 15, 2014 by vleessjuu

[BrazilianJoe]

Cedekane, you analysis is interesting, your effort is appreciated. But it has some flaws. 

 

A better comparison would be:

a) Rush+Maglev build using no coptering

b) Dual Zoren or Dual Ichor unmodded using only coptering

c) Dual Zoren/Dual Ichor with attack speed mods using only coptering.

 

The crux of the case is: 

 

You have to use up 2 Warframe slots with Rush and Maglev, while coptering comes in free, and can be further improved with mods which also improve attack.

 

This is the single most important distinction.

 

I actually like coptering as a movement model, but it overshadows the other valid movement modes. I am a procopter, but I also think it should be balanced with the other methods to get from point A to point B as fast as possible (bar skills).

 

Maglev and Rush are also Warframe mods, and slots are at a premium. The Warframe has only 6 slots to mod, unless you sacrifice skill slots to add other mods, so it's 2 less than Melee. And the correct weapon speed modded will fly you to the other side of the room. 

 

That's why I think that coptering should have mods specifically for coptering FORWARD SPEED. Weapon attack speed currently also affects forward momentum on coptering, and that's what makes it so OP.

[UncommonUnicorn]

Nice stats there, how about some without coptering/slingshotting to see the real difference?

[Damagedice]

I first would copter like a lot of people did, using average speed weapons and lengthening my slide slightly. Then I tried zoren, and ichor, and scoliac, and amphis, etc. Atm I just have a scoliac that i use to mid air whip myself into brakk range, before i burst the offending heavy gunner with ice storm for mag size, lethal torrent for speed, and corrosive.

Im not gloating my build off, im just saying that the biggest threat a heavy gunner had, even, was shooting me before i killed it. They barely get to react to such a combo as I said above. Really, its probably the one case that it does more than mobility's sake (fly up and burst, fly out). It's pretty easy with only a bit of dexterity and some bravery.

Place that into the entire run and its a big fast paced MLG flip and shoot spree where i barely am still long enough to truly get surrounded or bursted or trapped or anything. It's immensely fun-- I'd say the true toxic things are those which are so op, I'm ruining my own engagement-- but it has certainly permanently changed the way I play.
I would kind of fall into a category as someone who would like to see it changed, and somehow integrated into the game better, but not destroyed. 

[(PSN)Alphapsykongaroo]

sprint speed is still very important to move somewhere with precision. if you copter with reckless abandon, you're very likely to just crash into a wall or end up going or falling somewhere unintentionally. even in a pvp scenario, the best players know the timing is more important than spamming slide attacks.

[cedekane]

Alright right guys.  First off I've fudged my math by not converting my values into minutes and seconds:\  Let me fix all that first off, I'm just going to edit in the new numbers...I've also run the situational tests so I'll post those results.  Then I'll get to some comments and figure out where to go from here.  Thanks for your patience:)

 

EDIT: Ok, fixed.

Edited September 16, 2014 by cedekane

[cedekane]

Honestly, I don't have anything against coptering per se, but what I don't like is that the most efficient form of movement basically requires you to spam the same button combination over and over. 

Again, coptering is ok in my book, although I would be fine with it being taken down a notch. 

I'm going to say that initially before running the tests i thought I would need an ice pack for my wrist after these, that didn't happen and after a while it was second nature.  The awkward control patterns do kind of highlight coptering's origins as a bug and it's unintended repurposing as a form of mobility.  I bet it feels a lot better on a controller.

 

As to your second comment, the suggestions I'm kicking around in my head are based on fixing what is broken, buffing some things, and closing the mod gap.  I also want to try and focus on integrating coptering to be more in line with the other systems.  By doing this, i think we can change the argument from being coptering vs everything else. I think it can be done without changing how coptering works, which is great for those of us who have gotten really attached. 

[cedekane]

Cedekane, you analysis is interesting, your effort is appreciated. But it has some flaws. 

 

The crux of the case is: 

 

You have to use up 2 Warframe slots with Rush and Maglev, while coptering comes in free, and can be further improved with mods which also improve attack.

 

This is the single most important distinction.

 

I actually like coptering as a movement model, but it overshadows the other valid movement modes. I am a procopter, but I also think it should be balanced with the other methods to get from point A to point B as fast as possible (bar skills).

 

Maglev and Rush are also Warframe mods, and slots are at a premium. The Warframe has only 6 slots to mod, unless you sacrifice skill slots to add other mods, so it's 2 less than Melee. And the correct weapon speed modded will fly you to the other side of the room. 

 

That's why I think that coptering should have mods specifically for coptering FORWARD SPEED. Weapon attack speed currently also affects forward momentum on coptering, and that's what makes it so OP.

Thanks BrazilianJoe,

 

My tests are incomplete for sure.  One thing I'm finding while running test after test is that after a while your mind goes to mush, and you start thinking  "Ok, all these numbers are great and interesting, but what was i trying to prove?"

 

Trying to highlight a mod gap, if one truly exists is going to be daunting and comes with a set of problems.  

 

The tests that I ran proved that the original means of movement(solely using sprinting/sliding/slingshotting) can be as fast as coptering, but that is with a cherry loadout.  It's not really realistic in normal gameplay.  Logically, we know that a mod imbalance should exist between the 2 modes of transport, because coptering gives an innate speed boost without relying on any mods heavily.  The problem is trying to find the extent of that imbalance.  This could potentially require a lot of tests : ( 

 

In any case, I think your right, back to basics is a good place to start.  

 

As to your suggestion, that could work but there seems to be a lot of resistance to adding a coptering specific mod to the game.  There are 2 sides to balance, so we may be able to achieve our goal by making the original methods of travel more appealing. Making the maglev bonus innate to all warframes and remove it from the game would also shorten the mod gap.  I'll tackle the speed inconsistency in another test possibly and will include a suggestion that addresses it.

 

TYVM.

Edited September 16, 2014 by cedekane

[cedekane]

Nice stats there, how about some without coptering/slingshotting to see the real difference?

Thanks, 

 

Slingshotting really did used to function a lot better way back when...(I think I stopped playing the first time around update 10?)  You stuck to the intended walls more often, and the distance you came off the wall was pretty much the same everytime.  I really liked it because you have to look for angled surfaces to jump off from.  It changes the monotony a bit.  Someone did mention that you can chain coptering off of a slingshot for extra speed which is kinda cool.

 

Because walls to jump from are intermittent, and slingshotting itself seems somewhat broken, I can't see any reason where you would use it over coptering.  Except style.  

[cedekane]

I would kind of fall into a category as someone who would like to see it changed, and somehow integrated into the game better, but not destroyed. 

Well then, I think you're in the right place. 

 

I'll say that I would be fine if coptering was gone.  It sure would fix a lot of....imbalances.  It won't be destroyed at this point in any case, and I'm trying to brainstorm some things that can fix the system without even messing with coptering...too much.

 

That is why your opinion is so important.  Some of the procopter's came in here and I got the feeling that they didn't like the idea of adding a mod specifically for coptering.  So I'm not really thinking about that as a solution.

Edited September 16, 2014 by cedekane

[cedekane]

sprint speed is still very important to move somewhere with precision. 

Thanks.  If I were a Procopter, I would think I would want rush in my loadout as well to eek out a few extra seconds.  Testing it to see how much of a difference it makes would be interesting.

 

EDIT:  btw, your comment also reminds me that experience is most likely going to come into play.  I view this as a plus for a movement system.  Mastery 16 Tenno should look more comfortable with movement than noobs.

 

A question I would have then which I'm not going to try and prove in any test.  Are newer players getting a good grasp on the other movement types before they can get there hands on coptering?  I mean, sliding isn't rocket science here...still :)  

 

For sure they can learn.  If they want.

Edited September 16, 2014 by cedekane

[VergilDT]

Coptering is in truth a slide attack right? wouldn't slide attacks have to be removed to stop coptering if so desired?

[BrazilianJoe]

Coptering is a slide attack, and needs to stay. 

 

I just think it shouldn't overshadow other movement types. That's why it needs a nerf, because it requires less skill than other movement types, and just works so much better as is. 

 

BUT I also think that the current coptering speed should still be achievable. So, the player should have the option to sacrifice some mod space on the weapon to bring coptering back up to current levels. 

 

I want mods to coptering forward momentum and coptering attack power, and for attack speed mods to affect rotating speed, but not forward momentum. 

[cedekane]

BrazJoe,

 

What if forward momentum(basically movement speed) functioned off warframe speed instead of attack speed?  Would that get to a portion of what your after?  

 

I like it because it also addresses a bypass of movement speed which coptering has introduced.  It also helps shrink the mod gap a little(or at least makes it more transparent) because coptering would be more dependent on the rush mod.

 

Any other procopters see this and want to answer, be my guest.

[Jinryusai]

[Mesyra]

I dont copter much anymore, I just slide flip. much more effective. :)

[Magarthryx]

SPIN TO WIN BABY

 

YEAH

YEAH

YEAH

 

SPIN-SPIN-SPIN

 

LASER DOORS?

LOL

MAP BOUNDRIES?

LOL

SLOWEST FRAME ON THE TEAM?

NOT ANY MORE

 

now the fun thing is that DE put a delay on sliding and front flipping, BUT THIS IS STILL IN

 

SPIN-SPIN-SPIN

[cedekane]

Flipping, eh?  When i started playing Mirage I for sure had the thought "How come all frames aren't this fast?", it's fun.

 

I'm digging the positive attitude, I think I need more of the copter juice.  The enthusiasm that you share with a majority of the community has reinforced that any nerfs or major changes to coptering are not an answer worth pursuing.

 

Thanks you for your responses.

[BrazilianJoe]

DE made coptering as a function of weapon weight. Lighter weapons copter faster. I don't really see a problem with that, and I feel has this as a staple of the skill, it would be very hard to convince DE to remove that. 

 

I think coptering forward momentum should take into account:

 

Warframe speed

Arcane helmets with speed

Weapon weight

Weapon coptering speed mods (none exist currently)