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Hey You, Let's Just Exchange A Few Words About Saryn Ok?


Lvl99Gamer
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Hey there random person on the internet,

 

Yeah you.

 

Here's how this is gonna play out ok? I'm gonna express a little discontent about the state of Saryn after which you can join this lovely discussion and even throw your opinion in as well if you so desire.

 

Because there's some stuff that frustrates me.

 

So let's get this show on the road shall we? You and me.

 

First off, lets do a quick overview of her skills.

 

Contagion: As we all know this skill is terrible. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily, I'd love to have this skill changed but it's far from my main concern so let's move on.

 

Venom: (Can we finally have these 2 skill names be changed pls? They're each other's definition) While not as terrible as Contagion. It's not really worth the mod slot which can be used to improve her ult. But you know? A lot of the top tier frames have 1 or 2 useless abilities and I can totally live with that for Saryn.

 

Molt: then? It's the only other skill that I might consider using a mod slot for actually. It's not worth using at high tier missions but its sort of a fun skill and the proc removal is a nice little touch, if a little situational. 

 

And while I would LOVE a buff to these skills or even her base stats, none of them are frustrating enough to make me stop playing Saryn. As you may have concluded by now dear reader the only skill left is Miasma.

 

Yes, Miasma is the skill frustrating the most by FAR.

 

 

 

 

 

''What...''

 

-Random internet person, 2014

 

 

 

Now now, don't press that ''X'' button just yet. Hear me out. Miasma is indeed Saryn's most powerful and even most FUN skill and about as signature a move as they get.

 

But why for the love of all that is holy must it scale positively with negative power duration? And while it's WONDERFUL that Fleeting Expertise is twice as effective on Saryn it has one enormous drawback.

 

 

The Arcane Chlora helmet.

 

 

I'm a man whose ever fiber screams to get the most out of the stuff I love and sadly that includes this abomination of a helmet as it not only improves Miasma's damage by a fair amount it also increases a very slow frame's stamina as a bonus. 

 

I made a little something in Paint to illustrate the gravity of the situation.

 

 

 

 

do6mnd.png

 

 

 

I rest my case... as for you dear reader? Do you not agree that though the double effectiveness of Fleeting Expertise is a blessing it is also a worthy sacrifice to make sure Saryn can properly be minmaxed without having to look at the terrible abomination that is the Arcane Chlora helmet?

 

I look forward to your messages of agreement.

 

But seriously though please if you have any suggestions to improve this awkward scaling issue (of which only Hydroid's tempest barrage suffers as well in this game as it is negatively affected by positive power range scalings) As it is just weird to build around.

Edited by Lvl99Gamer
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Well, her other abilities would shine if people were not pigeon holed into just building for Miasma. Tis the deal with every frame; you find the best ability, make the most out of it, then you want the other abilities to be better because you're bored but don't want to change your frame.

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Venom is great for CC, since it spreads. Extremely effective with crowds and when you use shotgun. It could use a bit of damage buff, though.

 

Contagion is nearly useless, I agree. It could use a total rework, maybe a toggle with energy drain + being a team buff + status chance buff

 

Molt is extremely useful, it draws enemy aggro and then explodes procing Toxin to all enemies in range. And the range is huge.

 

Miasma melts Grineer like they were made of butter. Plus it stuns them and deals DoT damage. It could use a guaranteed Corrosion proc, though.

 

 

Also - don't like the helmet? N obody forces you to use it. I am running around with Arcane Hemlock and I'm a hapy guy.

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I like that helmet.

 

As for saryns abilities, I would like to see her get a bit more... something.

 

I was thinking that Saryn could get an extra ability layer, where for every X points of power damage she deals, she gains additional %health damage.

 

Also bringing Venom back to where it was originally would also be nice.

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Well Molt is actually pretty good now, except for the fact that it works a bit randomly and doesn't regenerate enough aggro for all ennemies to focus on the skin.

Miasma is fine I think, even if the range is pretty short, but it does good damage so it is fair

Venom though, now it is pretty useless, I liked it a lot more before they stealth nerf it a while ago. That was the reason why I stopped playing saryn. I was so funny popping all thoses spores and see millions of ticks. This ability made her unique, but decrease computer performance and occasionally crash. But instead of fixing it (maybe less tick but more damage) DE decided to nerf it. 

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The only aberration I see there is that color choice. The helmet looks great.

 

Out of the two colour schemes I use on frames this is probably my favourite. (red blue and yellow is also pretty swag but who can't love 90's?)

 

You'll be happy to hear I use it on about 75% of my frames.

 

5ts7xv.png

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I have a few ideas on how to fix Contagion.

 

I’m sure most of us agree that Contagion is an awful ability to use as of now, but let’s get constructive. It seems that the most popular suggestions as to how to fix Contagion is to use a derivative of the old Overheat. I will consider this retired ability along with current in-game warframe melee abilities of similar nature to come to an agreeable conclusion.

 

The most ideal comparison for a melee ability to start with as a base is Valkyr’s Warcry, with consideration of Ash’s and Loki’s melee bonus limits. It has the same point cost as Contagion, and is accepted as a balanced melee ability.

 

At base, the bonuses this ability contributes are:

50% ally speed buff

50% ally armor buff

30% enemy debuff

The ability has a 25 meter range, and lasts for 15 seconds. It costs 75 energy.

 

Compared to Contagion’s single 75% poison damage for 20 seconds, it’s far superior. I’ll do my best to approximate these bonuses to Saryn, and find some alternatives.

 

Our community seems to want most of all, damage reduction and toxic emanation from Saryn, which is definitely within the domain of Overheat. However, this ability was retired, due to the nature of the warframe it was applied to, and possible imbalance. I’ll list the bonuses just the same. The bonuses are:

 

200 fire damage within 0.5 meters of the caster (not scaled off power strength or power range)

40% damage reduction (scaled with power strength)

For 20 seconds (scaled off power duration), for a cost of 50 energy.

 

That’s Overheat. Clearly it confers a bonus for being close to enemies, but it did not give incentive to be close all the time or perform melee, so players just put it on for protection and kept using guns. A true melee ability has to have melee incentive.

 

I’m pretty sure 50 energy is too cheap for what Overheat did, so 75 energy is the first adjustment.

 

Secondly, it goes without saying the fire damage will be changed to toxin, but to make this ability appeal to melee, it must be merged with properties similar to Valkyr’s Warcry to give this ability melee incentive.

 

The damage reduction should also scale with power, but the base amount needs to be discussed for balance. Alternatively, we can go the route of buffing armor, similar to Valkyr’s Warcry. The following discussion will compare the warframes, assuming maxed Vitality, Steel Fiber, and Redirection is worn by both.

 

Let’s consider Valkyr first.

 

She has 600 base armor, and 100 base health. She will gain an additional +200 HP at rank 30.

 

The calculation for effective health points (EHP) is:

Effective Health = Base Health * (1 + (Armor / 300))

 

So Valkyr has with maxed Vitality and Steel Fiber: 3848 EHP, plus 370 shields with Redirection, she will have 4218 points of damage resistance.

 

While under the effect of Warcry, at base power strength she will have 5402 effective health.

She will have a mild 370 shield afterwards.

This totals to 5772 points of damage resistance.

 

If Warcry is maxed in power strength, Valkyr will have 7406.66 EHP, and the shields will bring her damage total to 7776 points.

 

Saryn has more health points, but lower armor. Her base EHP with Vitality and Steel Fiber is: 2314.35 EHP, with 740 shields on top, she will take 3054 damage before she gets floored.

 

With Warcry at base, she has 2916.525 EHP, and with power strength maxed Warcry, she has 3693.33075 EHP, and with 740 shields on top, 4433 damage.

 

Saryn with this armor boosting scheme will have 57% Valkyr’s damage limit before getting floored. To approach this limit, the armor multiplier needs a significant buff, but the only reason why Valkyr’s buff was shared amongst the team was because it was planned that no other warframe would have so much armor, and therefore an adjusted version for Saryn could not share its benefit with the team for reason of being too powerful. Other bonuses will have to be conferred to the team.

 

Let’s try to bring Saryn between 80% to 85% of the damage tolerance Valkyr has. We’ll cover the remaining lost portion with a small ability bonus later. If this draft is used,

Saryn’s self-applied armor boost from Contagion would need to be…

 

150% armor boost at base cast of the skill would confer 4120.875 EHP, and with 740 shields added on top, she will have 4860 damage. This will bring her to 84.199% of what Valkyr can tolerate at Warcry’s base armor buff. Alternatively, the buff can be 120%, and she will have 3759.57 EHP plus 740 shields, 4499 damage cap, which is 77.9% of Valkyr’s damage cap.

 

The power maxed version of the 150% draft would give Saryn 6451.29 EHP, and the 740 shields stacked on top will confer7191 damage tolerance. This is 92% of what Valkyr can tolerate with her version of this ability, Warcry. Alternatively, the 120% draft version will be power maxed to give 274.8% damage reduction, which will confer 5623.9 EHP, rounded down then boosted by 740 shields to give 6363 damage cap, which is 81.8% of Valkyr’s ability. So for better balance, we’ll take the draft that gives Saryn an initial armor boost of 120%, which is modifiable by power strength. The lost percentage can be compensated for by adding a small fun effect.

 

Alternatively to the above, we can go the simpler route and attempt to achieve the same effect using total damage reduction instead of armor boosting. Within the discussion of comparative buff effects from the original Warcry, Saryn had only 57% of the durability Valkyr has when the ability had maximum power strength. To achieve even protection from her skill using pure damage reduction, the power strength maxed iteration of the new Contagion would confer just over 75% damage reduction, so reverse-calculating down from maxed power strength, the starting damage reduction would be about 33% base. We can lower it down to 30% damage reduction, which is a loss to Saryn but otherwise the numbers are cleaner. This version is a simple, yet well-balanced approach to rebalancing Overheat’s damage reduction. It will cost 75 energy as opposed to 50, and it will confer 30% damage reduction as opposed to 40%, keeping the ability within balance of Valkyr’s Warcry. This is supposed to be a melee skill however, so it’s time to give melee incentive.

 

Valkyr can already boost other Valkyr players and take turns giving buffs, so we wouldn’t want to superbuff Valkyr to insane armor levels. Based on whichever one of the three drafts that are selected from what I suggested above, we’ll have the remaining to balance out:

 

If using the 150% base armor increasing version, we’ll have a minor 8% of Saryn’s defense to compensate for.

 

If using the 120% base armor increasing version, we have 20% of Saryn’s defense to compensate for.

 

If using my 30% base damage reduction version, we have practically nothing to cover for, and the additional effect can be left on the cutting room floor.

 

Regardless of which option you and/or the developers choose to use, we still have to compensate for that large chunk of team defense utility that was scrapped from Valkyr’s original Warcry, to suit Saryn’s personality—we’ll get there soon enough. As the original Warcry did, this will only apply to teammates and enemies within range of the initial skill cast, and will last for the duration of the ability on those affected targets. Contagion already has a timer between reuse, so appropriating a derivative of Warcry+Overheat splicing to her will work without need of adjustment, and players can use the ability as they already have been.

 

Valkyr’s ability granted 50% additional melee speed at base power strength, and granted 114.5% melee speed buff with maxed power strength. Enemy speed at base power strength is reduced by 30%, and at maxed power strength reduced by 68.7%.

 

Observing our melee mods, Attack speed is at a higher premium per percentage added than base attack damage, and elemental damage costs a bit more per percentage than base damage. So the ratio of base speed (Fury)/base damage (Pressure Point)/base element damage (Fever Strike) in the mods is 30/120/90, which is factored down to 1/4/3. So for every one percent of attack speed percentage added, we can add three percent toxin damage. So simply speaking, we take Valkyr’s melee speed boost, and convert it to toxin damage on weapons, multiplied by three. So Saryn’s conversion of this skill would confer 150% additional toxin damage at base, power strength maxed to 343.5% toxin damage added to melee weapons, for all of your teammates. This converts Valkyr’s team bonus to something that makes sense for Saryn’s slower, toxic nature, and is still within limits of Ash’s and Loki’s cloak melee damage buff of 400%.

 

We still have to compensate for the missing half of team bonuses. It’s fair to say that team bonuses are worth as much as enemy debuffs, so this is an option to consider. This all has to happen within range of the ability itself.

 

To compensate for half of the team bonus lost, I’ll convert it directly to harmful effect applied to enemies. I opt for 200 toxin damage impact applied to all enemies within the area with a 100% forced proc chance. Toxin proc deals 50% the initial damage, so enemies will generally take 100 damage per second for 9 ticks within 8 seconds, which will be 900 damage total after 8 seconds. The logic for this skill is Ember’s Fire Storm ability with partial effectiveness. Fire Storm deals 150 damage per tick base. It deals one tick at the start, and one tick per second thereafter, for a total of 21 ticks of damage at base, equating to 3150 damage. Since Warcry has 25 meters initial range, Saryn’s new Contagion will also have this range. The 25 meter instant effect with range scaling is weighed against Ember’s persistent trap with duration scaling, on equal basis, then divided by three since this feature is supposed to be worth a third of an established warframe ability of equal point value. Alternatively, this damage feature can be replaced by a 4% per hit lifestrike bonus to all teammate melee weapons. Alternatively, a potent damage aura of 200 toxin damage per second within 0.5 meters can emanate from Saryn. All effects can even be included depending on how the overall warframe buffing pattern happens which may raise the power ceiling for what abilities are expected to do for their energy cost.

 

So far so good, all that’s left is to consider a unique effect applied to Saryn herself to cover the missing chunk of the defense value the skill should have given. What we have so far is…

 

Contagion:

 

Within 25 meters instantly, applies various effects to teammates and enemies, which once applied lasts for a duration of 15 seconds if the effect is meant to be persistent. This ability scales with power strength, range, and duration.

 

To teammates:

Instead of a 50% speed buff to team melee weapons, grant a 150% (strength modifiable) toxin damage buff to team melee weapons. This damage effect should not combine with already existing elements on weapons, but should be added separately after. It will last for the duration of the ability.

 

Instead of granting a 50% armor increase to allies, apply 200 toxin damage (strength modifiable) with 100% proc chance to enemies within ability range. It is an instant effect, so it will not be affected by power duration. It is a single hit of toxin with 100% status chance (always happens), and the status will only last for 8 seconds. Alternatively, % life strike per hit for the duration of the ability.

 

Both Warcry and Contagion will apply the same 30% debuff to enemy speed. This effect will last for the duration of the ability.

 

All that’s left to cover for is the possible loss of Saryn’s defense from the adaptation of Warcry, based on which draft you chose to use. A mild yet helpful offensive effect should do the trick. If you used the 150% armor buff base, we compensate for the 8% defense loss with 10 toxin damage per second aura around Saryn within 0.5 meters of herself. This range does not scale with power range mods. If you went with the 120% armor buff base, it should be a 25 toxin damage per second aura within 0.5 meters of herself. If the 30% damage reduction draft was chosen, I suppose this feature need not be here.

 

This is my first draft of my Contagion overhaul, kept within balance best I could. It’s still a work in progress, so do offer constructive guidance, and hopefully [DE] will consider these ideas for the Contagion rework, because it sure needs one.

 

 

And maybe a few more ideas on the rest of her.

Edited by MechaKnight
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I agree Contagion really needs a rework, it's next to being useless as it stands now. Venom could do a minor tweak here and there, maybe increase the damage more? Moulth should just use the Saryn's health/shields/armor times 2 instead of having it's own standalone health/shields/armor and I think that would already solve it. I like Miasma I don't really want to change it's mechanics but if all her skills would aim towards increasing the duration then I have to agree about what the OP said.

Edited by mcryseria
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Damage 2.0 did seem to negatively impact Venom. It was relatively powerful even with the performance nerf on it that prevented it from scaling exponentially into infinity which crashes and heats up a lot of rigs...

But then Toxin damage types came into play and...well...armor mitigating damages...Venom does need relooking into as the once universal armor-ignoring skill now deals a near laughable damage/tick even at just level 25 content...It doesn't spread well now considering how fast even Phage melts enemies and even if it does spread, it's AoE damage over time is heavily outdone by multiple Slash Dashes...and it's harder to get that momentum going when everything's exploding in a few hits......

Edit:

Since CC is relatively important, why not have Venom some semblance of Slow? 6%/spore, scalable with power, might be nice.

Edited by Erusa
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Well, as for Hydroid, it seems to me that His powers are really not meant to have Power Range int he first place, considering you can activate the power on the reticle, pretty much as far as you can see. I would not bother with power range at all.

 

I do agree about most of her, Saryns, abilities though. Venom seems to have little effect, and Contagion is the same. As for Molt, I find this ability to have great utility. It's far better than Decoy, IMO, as you can cast it while doing anything and not interrupt it. It helps drastically while doing captures in the void, making all enemies fall behind you at a seamless swipe of the touchpad.

 

Personally, I dont see much of a reason to mod her lesser powers. Other frames, like Hydroid, Zephyr, and Volt, have such utility in their abilities that all four are worth keeping on, but frames like Saryn, Valkyr, and Oberon, sadly only have around two powers worth actually keeping on. So long as you have a good rage build, you can keep on with their more useful abilities going throughout the entire match.

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Contagion definitely needs a rework I agree with you, its right up there in the list of dumpster mods next to Super Jump.

 

Venom maybe a few tweaks to how it does damage as Molt aoe and Miasma aoe work much better than Venom spamming in the grand scheme of things. It does have a niche in dealing with crowds a bit further away than the Molt and Miasma aoe though.

 

Molt is quite live saving to be honest. Assuming you're not a player who is completely brain dead and uses Molt and then stands in front of it and its attackers then its quite handy as a shield as well as a way to recover in large open fights and remove those nasty procs.

 

Miasma is amazing in my books. Not only does it do a very nice aoe damage but it can also be used to easily stun lock a group of enemies. That can then be killed with weapons.

 

Concerning the duration thing with Miasma I really don't see the problem. Fleeting doesn't really cause a huge issue with your other abilities expecially if you are running max energy efficiency. I run a rank 4 of both Fleeting and Streamline as those are universal for most of my warframes and I don't run into any problems. I recently just started leveling my Saryn and soloed a Corpus T3 Defense without a problem. Even those pesky Techs at level 40 were no match and I was only around level 20 with only a few mods on.

 

Whats wrong with the Chlora helmet? I mean its personal preference really. I wasn't lucky enough to be around during the arcane helmet days but I still use the Chlora over the default as I think it looks better. And don't get me even started on Garlic Head Hat Helmet for Saryn that thing is weird. But still thats just opinion and preference.

 

 

I feel like Contagion needs to be replaced by something else entirely. Perhaps an activatable aoe toxin cloud or something. At the moment its one of the only warframe abilities that buff a certain weapon type (melee) and quite frankly I would like to just have warframe abilities that have realy nothing to do with the weapons you choose to use.

 

The reason being that if I even used Contagion it would mean that I have to run at enemies and melee them within a set duration and I have 3 other abilties that can kill them much faster so why would I waste the effort? It could be said that this can be combined with Molt but unless its really high level enemies my Molt at the moment kills them when I just recast it.

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Out of the two colour schemes I use on frames this is probably my favourite. (red blue and yellow is also pretty swag but who can't love 90's?)

 

You'll be happy to hear I use it on about 75% of my frames.

 

5ts7xv.png

I think I finally lost my sight great. Alright time to go ray Charles besides that I like using contagion to go corrosive viral since it combines with your last element so you can have two toxic combos its nice with that plus molt deprocs any and all effects you had and you can self.detonate it making it like a proximity mine venom deals viral so you can halve those gunners HP in voids with them.

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Contagion definitely needs a rework I agree with you, its right up there in the list of dumpster mods next to Super Jump.

 

Venom maybe a few tweaks to how it does damage as Molt aoe and Miasma aoe work much better than Venom spamming in the grand scheme of things. It does have a niche in dealing with crowds a bit further away than the Molt and Miasma aoe though.

 

Molt is quite live saving to be honest. Assuming you're not a player who is completely brain dead and uses Molt and then stands in front of it and its attackers then its quite handy as a shield as well as a way to recover in large open fights and remove those nasty procs.

 

Miasma is amazing in my books. Not only does it do a very nice aoe damage but it can also be used to easily stun lock a group of enemies. That can then be killed with weapons.

 

Concerning the duration thing with Miasma I really don't see the problem. Fleeting doesn't really cause a huge issue with your other abilities expecially if you are running max energy efficiency. I run a rank 4 of both Fleeting and Streamline as those are universal for most of my warframes and I don't run into any problems. I recently just started leveling my Saryn and soloed a Corpus T3 Defense without a problem. Even those pesky Techs at level 40 were no match and I was only around level 20 with only a few mods on.

 

Whats wrong with the Chlora helmet? I mean its personal preference really. I wasn't lucky enough to be around during the arcane helmet days but I still use the Chlora over the default as I think it looks better. And don't get me even started on Garlic Head Hat Helmet for Saryn that thing is weird. But still thats just opinion and preference.

 

 

I feel like Contagion needs to be replaced by something else entirely. Perhaps an activatable aoe toxin cloud or something. At the moment its one of the only warframe abilities that buff a certain weapon type (melee) and quite frankly I would like to just have warframe abilities that have realy nothing to do with the weapons you choose to use.

 

The reason being that if I even used Contagion it would mean that I have to run at enemies and melee them within a set duration and I have 3 other abilties that can kill them much faster so why would I waste the effort? It could be said that this can be combined with Molt but unless its really high level enemies my Molt at the moment kills them when I just recast it.

 

Contagion is unsatisfactory compared to Volt's Speed, Loki's Invisibility, Ash's Smokescreen, and Valkyr's Warcry.

 

Molt is decent, but can do more, particularly to interact with the currently defective Venom. As of now, players generally choose between Molt for a pseudo-defense offensive ability with an energy cost, or a more standard defense mod like Steel Fiber, or Vigor.

 

Venom doesn't proc appreciably unless using Continuity, Constitution, and near-maxed Narrow Minded, as shown in this post with three videos here. Combine that with how many players find Venom extremely difficult to spread because most players don't use shotguns or Phage, and that's a major problem. Not even

herself could spread Venom--she failed 100% of all her attempts.

 

Miasma is only good when modded for minimum duration, which trashes her other three abilities in the process, which isn't so bad as of now considering her other three abilities weren't so good in the first place. That said, it is safe to say that all four of Saryn's abilities could use a rework.

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I actually quite like the Chlora helmet, to each their own I guess :/

 

Venom- I think what this skill needs is better ease of use. First you have to tag an enemy, which can be extremely difficult when they're skittering to and fro. Then you have to shoot a fairly small pustule while they're still skittering to and fro and it may not even pop if you're weapon doesn't have punch-through (clipping into the enemy model I presume). Then if you do pop it their isn't even a guaranteed chance that a decent chunk of enemies will be infected. The only real upside is that you can get a Viral proc on some enemies, but overall it just feels like an inferior yet harder to use version of Sonar.

 

My propositions to help improve it would be:

-Make the targeting range for this skill (and all aimed skills) the outer semi-circle on the reticule, so that you don't have to have pin-point accuracy just to tag the enemy in the first place. If there's multiple targets in your reticule, the selected one will be the one closest to the center dot.

-Make it easier to spread spores. Right now your target will get killed by your teammates half the time right after you infect them, ending the chain before it even begins. I think killing the enemy without popping any spores should still have a chance to spread the infection, but the range and spread chance aren't quite as high if they would be if you popped one. If you do pop one, the spread chance and range should be substantially higher, and it could possibly even deal moderate damage to anyone caught in the initial blast in addition to infecting them.

-I could be wrong about this one, but I'm pretty certain the spores have a hard cap on their duration, meaning that they'll abruptly dissipate even if you have a decent chain going. If that's the case it shouldn't be so; the spores should continue to spread so long as you keep up with them, justifying their low damage and proc chance (again I could be wrong about this, I'll have to test this one).

-I know it;s a glitch, but it would be nice if punch-through wasn't a necessity in order to pop the spores half of the time.

 

Contagion- I don't have quite as much to say about Contagion since I'm not much of a melee aficionado, but it definitely is a lackluster skill. I suppose my only suggestions to possibly make it better would be:

 

-Make it a team buff, the whole team may as well share in the caustic shenanigans.

-Possibly include a movement speed and/or armor buff upon casting. Nothing quite as potent as Volt's Speed or Valkyr's Warcry, but Saryns base movement speed leaves a lot to be desired for moving from enemy to another, and as a health-based tank she could use all the additional armor she could get while going toe to toe with the enemy.

-Maybe give her melee attacks a substantially improved proc chance while Contagion is active. After all, the selling point is poison damage that combines with any elements you have equipped to your sword, I think a near guaranteed chance to proc Viral, Corrosive, Gas, etc. with every strike would be a good reason to actually slot this one.

 

Can't honestly complain about Miasma and Molt though. The former does it's job and is decent enough as far as damage abilities go, and Molt does have some synergy with Contagion (if anyone actually uses that), removes procs, and explodes for a decent amount of toxic damage, pretty good for a decoy skill. Plus with Fleeting Expertise you can essentially use them as toxic time bombs, fun stuff :)

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