Endgame: How It Is The Root Of Some Issues.

[R34LM]

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT

VIEWER DISCRETION ADVISED

 

In case you choose not to read all the way through, keep response posts as constructive, respectful and clean as possible.

 

　

After seeing a lot of the Blessing and Radial Blind controversy, I began to ponder what the big deal was. I didn’t use either frame, but I tried to imagine that Radial Disarm got a similar beating to put myself into the mindset. Radial Blind received much more rage than Blessing, so I’ll be using that to open my argument.

 

Why is Radial Blind so important to players who want to run as Excalibur? Most people came out and said, “It’s his only good ability!”. Slight correction: it is the only ability that Excalibur has that is viable for certain missions. What missions might we be talking about? When people build their equipment they usually consider effectiveness in high level play over anything else, because, eventually, that’s where you would end up. What’s the most popular high level play, known as endgame, in this game? Any mission that allows enemies to reach high levels over 30, 40, 50 and upwards. Now, as we know, there are currently only two mission types that have the category of “endless” to allow enemies to scale up that high: survival and defense. No other mission type has the “endless” tag, so they have a set level for the enemies which (not including T3/T4 keys) maxes out at around 30. Having such high quality gear makes players immediately go to the higher level enemies because it presents more of a challenge. The challenge that players usually go to are, you guessed it, survival and defense, thanks to their endless scaling.

 

All the endgame that players will get is survival and defense.

 

That’s it.

 

.....and there is the problem...here’s why.

 

To clarify, I will not be mentioning PvP at all, because that is an entirely different system.

 

Survival and defense at higher levels has a clear cut “requirement” (not the best word but most could agree) to be able to finish the mission, let alone get the most reward out of it. Firstly, you have to ditch most damage abilities because they don’t scale that high. Secondly, your frame needs to be able to either resist/heal damage taken or avoid damage entirely. These “requirements” severely limit what players can use, as only a few frames fit that description. To name a few:

 

Excalibur: Radial Blind

 

Loki: Invisibility and Radial Disarm

 

Nyx: Chaos

 

Rhino: Iron Skin, though that loses its charm the higher you go.

 

Trinity: Blessing mainly, Energy Vampire helps as well.

 

While I’m not going to name every frame and ability that fit, you get the idea.

 

So, I predict Excalibur fans were upset over the recent change of Radial Blind because it makes it more difficult to effectively use it for higher level play. Before, you could hide behind cover and safely cast it; now, with the LOS rule, you need to risk going out into the line of fire to get the most punch. That’s not a good tradeoff, and his other abilities don’t help in the situation. While I do agree the change stated by DE was due, it does make things difficult for Excaliburs to hold their own at higher levels.

 

As it is all about either resisting or avoiding the most damage in endgame (limited to defense and survival) at this time, this severely pigeon-holes players to build frames in a very particular way to be successful. For frames that cannot allow this, they are left behind.

 

If survival and defense are the only source of endgame that the game offers, that’s all experienced players will play and will be forever stuck in the mindset of building only to resist or avoid damage.

 

Now, after all this, I finally suggest a solution.

 

What Warframe needs for its endgame is a lot more variety on how to approach a problem.

 

A simple fix is to have mission types such as exterminate, deception, spy, sabotage and capture have the higher level enemies that experienced players want to go up against. But I still don’t think that is enough, because it would still be about avoiding and resisting the most damage, with a few exceptions. What we need are missions with amplified difficulty in the procedure, not the combat.

 

For example (and these are just ideas, so some may work and some won’t):

 

Exterminate: Have a stealth requirement that forces players to be patient and time kills carefully. To make things more interesting, have a couple enemies in a room be equipped with a life sign reader, alerting nearby units if the target is killed and, therefore, raising awareness. This would require players to plan their shots. Very much Arkham, but think about it.

 

Deception: Have the context of the mission be about the ship traveling to a Tenno supply post with the objective to bomb it. You have a set amount of time to divert the ship’s trajectory before they drop the bombs. This would be more about getting to your destination fast and worrying less about clearing the room, perhaps warranting mobility builds opposed to ability builds.....or they'll just copter. To each his own.

 

Conclave Limit: This was introduced in Tactical Alerts and is definitely effective. Make players really think about what gear best fits the situation.

 

Solo Only: Perhaps the mission requires you to travel alone?

 

Limit The Kills: What if you were to limit how many enemies could be killed? If a player kills so many enemies, they start emergency procedures that either make the mission harder or fail it entirely. It is an extreme change in dynamic and would change build possibilities drastically, plus add a different outlook to the mission.

 

　

 

On the side, I think all missions in general should offer more routes. Give the players more options. Say a player has just entered the sector in which the rescue target is held and needs to proceed with caution. A simple vent can allow alternate access. Adding a slightly out of reach high rise will reward players who build for wall running or have Super Jump or Tailwind; they now get a bird’s eye view of the room.

 

To further this, why not have abilities affect things other than enemies? You’re in Ceres and a massive tub of melted metal is between you and where you need to go. Tailwind and Wormhole helps, but how about freezing a path with Ice Wave, or hitting a switch on the side with Psychic Bolts or Shuriken to extend a bridge, or Rhino Charge into a nearby support that holds up a ramp that distributes water. Make more abilities help progress through the missions to compliment their damaging qualities. While I don't suggest that certain abilities have an extreme advantage over othersin this, I suggest that a wider arrange of abilities, and playstyles even, be able to accomplish the same goal. I know that the devs are working on making "The Sword Alone" style more viable, so that's a great start.

 

 

　

　

These are just a few thoughts of mine, but more could be added. The game shouldn’t just test strength and resistance, but also cunning, agility, patience, stealth, observance and perseverance. Widen what the endgame can offer and just watch as single use frames are given more variety and dusty frames are brought out and given purpose.

 

Now, I can well imagine that putting any of this to practice would take a lot of time, including figuring out an actual plan of action and getting it working. But we can’t have experienced players be stuck surviving and defending all day to get a challenge.

 

　

If you read all of this, good for you!

 

Thanks for reading.

[Guest Tehnoobshow]

DE not knowing what the heck they want this game to be: The root of all issues.

[vaugahn]

Essentially, yes. Infinite scaling is the root cause of all of our balance problems.

 

We need to either fully commit to scaling and create an actual scaling system for abilities/health/damage, or cap enemy levels and balance inside that.

[TrollyTheSolly]

Some great ideas here, i think for the one where you shouldn't kill too many enemies this will be troll galore, this should be a solo mission.

 

Or maybe even scale your abilities to the wave you are on, making them useful at higher levels

Edited September 12, 2014 by TrollyTheSolly

[Davoodoo]

Really its not problem of players not getting enough options for top end game, there are just options which goes over every other option which makes players get wrong impression that its balanced and everything else isnt.

 

Power dmg wouldnt let you go as high as you can do now, but guns allow that and thus players go higher, defenses fail cause like power dmg werent designed to deal with such enemies, cc is a must cause enemies dmg becomes so high its impossible to survive.

If you were however to lower dmg accross all weapons you would suddenly find dmg based frames more interesting, since they would do as much dmg as weapons and there would be no reason to completely ignore them, defenses would also hold up.

 

Strangely enough de doesnt try to fix that(cause ppl would get upset and we even have evidence of that) but also encourages having such illusions by adding more powerful weapons and mods(im looking at you corrupted, you pushed powers more into spammy builds instead of quality build but still pushed guns further into overquality).

Edited September 12, 2014 by Davoodoo

[ThePredicament]

DE not knowing what the heck they want this game to be: The root of all issues.

Pretty much this.

 

We all know balancing the game shouldn't be so across the boards with what they are doing with the frames. Some frames were designed to do things others can't and some frames are just made to do those things that others can't. The intrinsic value of the frame (more like their skill set) can't be reliably measured like how weapon damage is. This is why there are objective tiers to weaponry, they don't need balance because there are weapons that are good than there are weapons that are great but there are only three (or two) factors that would make a weapon valuable. Proc and damage, basically, utility and dps.

 

Utility in high end gaming is the most important aspect of a weapon after a certain point and this is true for frames too. Unfortunately, frames aren't as customizable as weapons, so this brings the biggest problem with trying to balanced based on the supposed measured value of the frames. For example, Smite vs Mind Control vs Soul Punch. Mind Control can be used to target a heavier unit for smaller units to crush them, soul punch knocks targets down. With the recent patch, Smite pretty much does all of this in one go (that also doesn't interrupt firing/reload animation), is that balanced? Obviously not but what does DE need to balance towards? Awesome (Smite) or borderline useless (Soul Punch)? The latter is where the recent Blessing nerf and the upcoming Radial Blind nerf is going. Instead of working on ways to utilize the current skill sets and fix the ones that are lacking (Although gj on Oberon), they are balancing around idea of what this game is really about.

[Davoodoo]

DE not knowing what the heck they want this game to be: The root of all issues.

I really doubt that its that simple.

 

Its more of a trap of "our community pays us so we must do what they want or we wont get paid"

This goes to the point where they cant make any drastic changes and try to appeal to literally everyone.

 

Imo it doesnt feel like they dont know what they do, it seems more like they purposely do all these "visions" instead of truly caring for their game and its longevity.

Ofc im assuming that dev team got anything to say and its not shareholders calling for more and more money.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Davoodoo

[OHyeahWF]

Great post! 

Give a lot of thought, hope more ppl would see this post.

[Eyeless]

Instead of working on ways to utilize the current skill sets and fix the ones that are lacking (Although gj on Oberon), they are balancing around idea of what this game is really about.

 

But what is this game about? 

[Davoodoo]

But what is this game about? 

It was meant to be coop third person shooter with rpg elements.

 

Now its rather poor god simulator without open world and coop tackled on.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Davoodoo

[(PSN)i_illusion]

You pretty much nailed the lack of proper limitations/balance problem in the game.

 

- DE simply doesn't know whether everything should be balanced or if somethings should be better then others. (We have a Mastery Rank system that is heavily underused which is ridiculous, people can easily make some of the best weapons in the game week 1-2 because there is no cmastery rank for those items. Every weapon should have a mastery rank!)

 

-The only moves viable in end game are non damaging skills that abilities scale in usefulness towards end game. (This is why Nyx is Queen of end game, Loki is super viable, and Excalibur's blinding are actually usefull. You still need strong weapons, but you aren't able to survive without non damaging mechanics in our current end game.)

 

- Even with Rescue 2.0 requiring more stealth, people still use regular damage build Warframes to speed through those. The event that came out with the event actually rewarded people to use stealth, and made it more rewarding because it saved the player time in the long run for not being caught. I don't think every mission should require people to use these mechanics, but rather give them more benefits and overall more rewarding to do so. Even if it requires making enemies slightly stronger in the end if you don't use stealth or something else, you just don't want to make it mandatory in the end because everyone has different playstyles they like.

- Also while I love the idea of having to use abilities to progress through the mission. (Hitting switches, ect.) Not everyone has every single ability on, this would be an idea that would work better if Warframe abilities weren't mod cards and were just on the Warframe itself. (I never understood why Warframe abilities have mod cards in a first place, very counterproductive in the long run.) This idea would only work if abilities weren't optional to put on. But that would require even more rebalancing and debates whether if we want to remove the 4 slots we have for abilities, or whether we want to keep them, or just remove 2 Warframe slots.

[Davoodoo]

- DE simply doesn't know whether everything should be balanced or if somethings should be better then others. (We have a Mastery Rank system that is heavily underused which is ridiculous, people can easily make some of the best weapons in the game week 1-2 because there is no cmastery rank for those items. Every weapon should have a mastery rank!)

De can make game balanced and still keep some weapons better.

All that is required is proper tiering, that would mean that more than 1 or 2 weapons are viable for endgame but also make lvling much smoother with more options to choose.

Only problem i see is that it requires balancing process, nerfs and buffs, looking at current state of game nearly exclusively nerfs.

And as we know ppl dont like nerfs, even if they help them in long run.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Davoodoo

[R34LM]

- Also while I love the idea of having to use abilities to progress through the mission. (Hitting switches, ect.) Not everyone has every single ability on, this would be an idea that would work better if Warframe abilities weren't mod cards and were just on the Warframe itself. (I never understood why Warframe abilities have mod cards in a first place, very counterproductive in the long run.) This idea would only work if abilities weren't optional to put on. But that would require even more rebalancing and debates whether if we want to remove the 4 slots we have for abilities, or whether we want to keep them, or just remove 2 Warframe slots.

I didn't say it, but you would still clear the obstacle via parkour or an alternate route, but certain abilities would help in making the obstacle less of a hassle. Also, obstacles would vary (mission type, tileset, environmental hazzard card, etc.); the pool of abilities that could be used to combat the obstacle would vary with it. So on one you could use Shuriken, on others you couldn't.

 

A solo player with only a few abilities may have some trouble feeling the effect of all of this, but imagine the team synergy this would make.

Edited September 18, 2014 by R34LM

[Magarthryx]

DE not knowing what the heck they want this game to be: The root of all issues.

[Magarthryx]

but seriously, i wanted to do a post about scaling and non-numeric abilities (and will some time)

 

the issue you're poking at is that enemies can scale infinitely, but players dont

 

and DE has been nerfing all the scaling or non-numeric warframes abilities, which has really.... mucked up their end game

[Damuranashi]

The thing is that you do the exact same thing from the beggining to the end.

[Hawk197]

Im no Excalibur player but heres my thoughts:

 

Most of the outcry is because there are really only two mission types that people generally play right now, those being Survival and Defense. Radial Blind was extremely useful for these missions since it allowed you to stop incoming enemies attacking the pod or allowed you to rez safely while in survival. There is also the PvP elements to this, which could easily be remedied by reducing the effectiveness in PvP only.

 

However if you did play an Ext or Spy or such, theres no way to "cheese" it now since you cant hide behind a wall, pop the Blind and kill. Radial Blind really only serves its usefulness in the Endless missions.

 

Adding in ways to make X ability needed to complete a mission isnt a very good idea since it would make pub games nearly impossible to complete. "Should I go Ash to hit that switch on the wall? What if someone else is already Ash though? What about Rhino to break the tree and make a bridge? What if someone else is already Rhino as well? Gah, Ill just be Trinity!" *Gets into pub game* "Hey, is anyone an Ash to hit that switch? No!? Son of a biscuit!". Theres also the fact that not every tileset is the same. Sometimes you go left, sometimes you go right which makes predicting what is and isnt needed nearly impossible anyways. However, implementing secondary object effects, like having Ice Wave form hazardous spikes on the floor or walls, or have Shuriken be used like a distraction, throw it at something to create noise, enemies check it out allowing you to sneak past them or kill them from behind.

[(PSN)i_illusion]

 However, implementing secondary object effects, like having Ice Wave form hazardous spikes on the floor or walls, or have Shuriken be used like a distraction, throw it at something to create noise, enemies check it out allowing you to sneak past them or kill them from behind.

It would take a while to do something like this, but this would be a much better solution in the long run. Just those small things can add uses to Warframe abilities. Abilities 2.0 anyone? xD

[--Q--uaint]

I'm of the opinion that abilities and melee should have a % component to their damage. I say % instead of % of hp since I think it would be best to base the damage on some sort of baseline value for a given level so that TTK varies between a 9999 Heavy Gunner and a 9999 Shield Lancer. However, it would then be best to base the units' actual effective HP on that value so that that Heavy Gunner doesn't get too far ahead of the Lancer, but her TTK hangs out at (for example) 2.5 times that of the Lancer.

 

 

Then progression would then be something like:

 

total noob: powers (when usable) > melee > guns

midgame: powers > guns > melee

late game: guns > powers > melee

infinite scaling: melee > powers ..... guns are useless.

 

 

TTK with melee would approach a particular value based on the % it took out as the "normal" damage becomes more and more irrelevant.

 

Abilities would be not quite so good since their high AoE capability would be countered by the unspammableness caused by the need for Blind Rage so they actually kill things. I'm thinking most ults would have ~60% hp damage of heavies while at max power strength, and pretty well clear out all the trash. MPrime would not have any % damage component since it's a utility skill and a weapon damage buff, while Bladestorm at max power strength would OHKO any standard mob since it has a target limit. Radial Javelin would probably clear trash just Intensify and maybe get to ~80-90% of heavies' hp at maxed power strength since it has... other issues.

 

This would create squad-based gameplay where e.g. a Trin keeps up the team's energy while the Rhino/Excal/Oberon/[your frame here] clears out the trash and the Ash makes the heavies die. The other 'frame would probably be Nekros for life support or perhaps Loki for disarm, depending of gametype.

Suddenly, the team is sticking together and supporting each other and not just using OP guns to kill everything near them.

 

The only further revisions needed would be (obviously balancing) and access to whatever level mobs you want at the beginning of the fight >.>

 

 

 

The % thing would also help with people just using damage power spam builds to cheese low-level content since the % wouldn't be helping nearly so much unless they limited their spam by using Blind Rage.

[(PSN)Strifedecer]

Edited September 18, 2014 by (PS4)Strifedecer

[VergilDT]

Essentially, yes. Infinite scaling is the root cause of all of our balance problems.

 

We need to either fully commit to scaling and create an actual scaling system for abilities/health/damage, or cap enemy levels and balance inside that.

My first response was going to be to cap enemy scaling, because seriously at even level 100 enemies, how much freaking harder does the game really need to be. with a limit to enemy strength the frames/abilities/weapons damages can be balanced to that scale. Sure, you wont be one shotting a lv100 with slash dash but you'll at least be able to get some decent damage off the "really hard to kill guys" with a arguably cool &#! move. endless scaling is why, eventually, veteran players are forced to build around the 1 or 2 abilities and a small selection of "useful" weapons so they can survive absurdly strong enemies. Capping enemies at an albeit uber strong but still reasonable difficulty opens Variety in builds both for frames and weapons and that is key to having loads of fun with the full range of awesome stuff we have to choose from. Slash Dash for example is really cool but it's reduced to a movement tool in so called endgame. Radial Javelin also falls off like a brick of a cliff past about lv30 ish. When I ult(with any frame) especially if it's a straight damage dealing ability, I want dead enemies up to about mid level and significant if not severe damage at "endgame" level. With these possibilities a new kind of teamwork opens up where you can do stuff like " I'll CC, you pop ult, then you CC/escape while I ult to finish it off". It's just so lame to go into endgame and just survive instead of being able to use strategy and awesome looking stuff the devs worked hard on to make reality to isolate particularly powerful enemies and destroy them then deal with their lesser buddies.

 

Variety and reasonable effectivness of all our tools at a limited if indeed still difficult level is the key to immersing and having fun with the smorgasbord of baddassery in this game.

[ePilgrim]

Want the golden key to Warframe? Here it is... just come get it.



Late game Warframe, the very high end tier, the brink before the brick wall, is ALL ABOUT UTILITY. There reason Nova is great isn't just because she can set up a chain reaction nuke (which is far less effective late game) but because she increases damage and dramatically slows maybe up to 30 units. Bullets and all. There is also a reason why Rhino is better at both defense and survival then Frost (to the Veterans). Rhino's stomp time-locks (stuns) enemies in a very large radius for a large amount of time.

Q: So why is utility better?

A: Because Warframe is a gun game.

It's as simple as that. If you were unaware, in a gun game, the primary object is to shoot and not stop for anything. Sure, you can stop shooting your Quanta as a Mag Prime to use her 4th ability and yeah, that hits quite a bit. Or you know, you can just shoot each one twice while you're still moving and safe. And because of Warframes terribad mod / weapon system that was neevverrr intended to compliment each other at all.. specific weapon and mod combos boost the effectiveness of guns so high that a single bullet from a Boltor can do more damage then a max power 'ultimate' from Mag.

At the extremely high tier point of Warframe, stopping to cast a weak ability that is pure damage leaves you vulnerable to the 3 hit killing spray and pray Grineer. So the ONLY abilities that come in handy are those that buy you more time to shoot. Yeah I can use a Banshee ult and feel the rain of bullets dripping down my head (that Vay Hek swears to me is rain) as I cast it for a maximum of 500 damage per 1 second OR..

I can save all my energy for long lasting and constant Chaos's's's's's that allows me to take it easy, far away from the large fights. The biggest pure damage dealers lose an enormous amount of viability because the DPS of THE VIABLE (I hate that I have to say that) guns in only a few seconds will top any and all damage "ability casters" have while also being a lot more safer (because you're constantly using cover and moving). 

When the game has even just a minor overhaul a lot of these problems will simply disappear and Warframe will very quickly change. The only issue is that DE is obsessed with releasing content rather then fixing the flawed systems they have in place.

GOLDEN RULE: The more you're shooting, the more efficient you're playing. If you have to stop to cast for damage, you're not ready for high tier gameplay.

Nyx: Chaos > Piew piew piew > Chaos > Piew piew piew 

Nova: Prime > Piew piew piew

Rhino: Stomp > Piew piew

Trinity: 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 > piew

Mag: 1 > 3 > 4 > 3 > piew piew piew > 3

Loki: Max duration mods > Join recruiting for T4S > 2 > Find vent > Afk

Edited September 18, 2014 by ePilgrim

[Marthrym]

Yes. I have been saying that for a long time now. I know many others who have been saying it for ages as well. Alleluia. More people joining. Alleluia.

 

All that's left now is repeating it enough in enough thread (yeah SPAM it) and maybe, just maybe, we might see a light at the end of the tunnel. And Warframe will be saved. Alleluia.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Marthrym

[--Q--uaint]

<snip>

If you're referring to my post, there are a few other good ones I've made. I, uh.... pride myself?.... in hiding my solutions to problems in other people's threads :P

 

Loki: Max duration mods > Join recruiting for T4S > 2 > Find vent > Afk

Actually, Loki: Max range mods, max efficiency mods > join any survival > 444444444 > win game

 

I took an unranked Plasma Sword (and no guns) into a T3 defense. I didn't have a stance for it, either, so it had no mods at all. We went for 30 waves, and I got a rank 30 Plasma Sword. I wasn't leeching because none of the enemies could shoot :V

Edited September 23, 2014 by ChronoEclipse

[Azawarau]

Excavate and interception are both endless