Nekros Rework - With A Neat Little Synergy I Thought Of Too!

[Navhkrin]

You are increasing the profit from their death.  It fits.  A thief would not fit that.  A thief theme would be more give to unlocking locked things, like lockers or vaults.

The word "profit" doesnt fit.   Gaining power from corpses, Like enegry , Would fit. Profit, Does not.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

The word "profit" doesnt fit.   Gaining power from corpses, Like enegry , Would fit. Profit, Does not.

Money, or in this case mods, does equate to power.

[Navhkrin]

Money, or in this case mods, does equate to power.

We both know what i meant from power. Money or mods are not that kind of "power", I mean pure direct power. Like filling his energy bar. Somethink that has direct effect. 

Profit is job for thiefs, Not death themed necromancers

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

We both know what i meant from power. Money or mods are not that kind of "power", I mean pure direct power. Like filling his energy bar. Somethink that has direct effect. 

Profit is job for thiefs, Not death themed necromancers

"Power" from death is the realm of necromancers and liches.

[Archwizard]

"Power" from death is the realm of necromancers and liches.

 

Like he was saying, that would make sense if we were just talking about health, energy and ammo; deaths causing a boon to the player in the form of an immediate mission performance boost, one that fulfills his support role but need only be cast in emergencies.

 

However, this (as with the rest of his skillset) is overshadowed by his metagame value.

 

We're referring to the physical or magical might that is important to a character class in an RPG, which is the realm of a necromancer. Tank, mage, assassin, cleric, the hallmarks; PVE and PVP, the pillars.

Metagaming, the "power" you're referring to, is like adding a bank system to each mission that can foreclose your Warframes; Nekros is the loan shark as a competitive class. PvIRS.

 

Okay, not a 1:1 metaphor, but you're still referring to his economic power rather than his value in the actual missions you're playing. Your actual enemy here is the excessive use of RNG, and Nekros is both the sole combatant you're allowed, and a mere bandaid on the problem.

 

Do you benefit? Yes, nobody's arguing that. Is it befitting the game? That's a staunch no. Is it befitting the class? Only if you squint, and I like to keep my eyes open when I'm shooting [size=2]oh what's that I'm not Desecrating right now too bad[/size]. Is it fun? Only in the sense doing taxes and not going to jail is.

 

Half the point of threads like this is that it would be a better game if we didn't have to worry about this... at all.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Archwizard

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

 

 

Like he was saying, that would make sense if we were just talking about health, energy and ammo; deaths causing a boon to the player in the form of an immediate mission performance boost, one that fulfills his support role but need only be cast in emergencies.

 

However, this (as with the rest of his skillset) is overshadowed by his metagame value.

 

We're referring to the physical or magical might that is important to a character class in an RPG, which is the realm of a necromancer. Tank, mage, assassin, cleric, the hallmarks; PVE and PVP, the pillars.

Metagaming, the "power" you're referring to, is like adding a bank system to each mission that can foreclose your Warframes; Nekros is the loan shark as a competitive class. PvIRS.

 

Okay, not a 1:1 metaphor, but you're still referring to his economic power rather than his value in the actual missions you're playing. Your actual enemy here is the excessive use of RNG, and Nekros is both the sole combatant you're allowed, and a mere bandaid on the problem.

 

Do you benefit? Yes, nobody's arguing that. Is it befitting the game? That's a staunch no. Is it befitting the class? Only if you squint, and I like to keep my eyes open when I'm shooting oh what's that I'm not Desecrating right now too bad. Is it fun? Only in the sense doing taxes and not going to jail is.

 

Half the point of threads like this is that it would be a better game if we didn't have to worry about this... at all.

 

Mods are real power not economic. Can you really say that you don't greatly increase in power after finding Serration versus not having it? Just dropping orbs makes him a less desirable Oberon, and Oberon is already pretty bad.

[Azamagon]

Mods are real power not economic. Can you really say that you don't greatly increase in power after finding Serration versus not having it? Just dropping orbs makes him a less desirable Oberon, and Oberon is already pretty bad.

Just orbs (and ammo)? Guess you forgot the CORPSE EXPLOSION that I suggested...

 

Mods have power yes. But a mod you pick up has no value right away WHILE YOU FIGHT. Yes, it might (big MIGHT here, RNG and all ya know?) help your next fight, but so what? Your abilities are supposed to aid you in the fight you're in, otherwise you are just a scavenging liability.

 

EDIT: And Oberon isn't bad anymore. Only Renewal is wonky at the moment, everything else has their uses for sure.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Azamagon

[Navhkrin]

Mods are real power not economic. Can you really say that you don't greatly increase in power after finding Serration versus not having it? Just dropping orbs makes him a less desirable Oberon, and Oberon is already pretty bad.

Power of death is indeed, But desecrate is no "power" its loot drop. Completely diffrent and logicless. Power as magical or physical. Pure power, Not somethink you can atrach to your rifle.  Direct enegry.  Extra loot is job of thiefs and that kind of roles, Necromancers are completely diffrent.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Power of death is indeed, But desecrate is no "power" its loot drop. Completely diffrent and logicless. Power as magical or physical. Pure power, Not somethink you can atrach to your rifle.  Direct enegry.  Extra loot is job of thiefs and that kind of roles, Necromancers are completely diffrent.

Spawning mods from corpses is no different than corpse explosion of bone armor.

[Archwizard]

Mods are real power not economic. Can you really say that you don't greatly increase in power after finding Serration versus not having it?

 

The power the mods provide affect your performance in the next mission, not even the one he cast Desecrate in. You'd think something was off if that rule were applied to any other frame - "I cast Roar this mission and it gives me a stacking power boost FOREVER. Yeah, next round too."

 

We're not saying "mods are bad, destroy mods".

We're not saying "mod generation is useless, remove it".

We're saying "The way Nekros generates mods is boring, and overshadows everything else about his arsenal, but apparently nobody cares because they're swimming in the platinum they made off that rare stance the exasperated Nekros just pulled up for them. Allow people to work for themselves and let Nekros off the hook, please."

Edited September 16, 2014 by Archwizard

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

The power the mods provide affect your performance in the next mission, not even the one he cast Desecrate in. You'd think something was off if that rule were applied to any other frame - "I cast Roar this mission and it gives me a stacking power boost FOREVER. Yeah, next round too."

A Lich planning a head to make himself nearly invincible?  [sarcasm]Yeah, that has never happened before. Nope, a phylactery is not a thing at all. [/sarcasm]

 

[Archwizard]

A Lich planning a head to make himself nearly invincible?  [sarcasm]Yeah, that has never happened before. Nope, a phylactery is not a thing at all. [/sarcasm]

 

 

Alright, then why can't Vauban "plan ahead" in a similar manner? He's supposed to be a combat engineer, after all.

How about Loki? His skills were designed for strategic use, much the same way. Not to mention his act of stealing guns!

Banshee can put enemies on her radar from a mile away, certainly planning for inevitable attack is something she can do.

Nyx is psychic and mute, who's to say she can't literally see the future?

 

You're saying planning ahead is both a feature unique to liches, and a justification for the single frame that plays a totally separate game from the other 19?

Edited September 16, 2014 by Archwizard

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Alright, then why can't Vauban "plan ahead" in a similar manner? He's supposed to be a combat engineer, after all.

How about Loki? His skills were designed for strategic use, much the same way. Not to mention his act of stealing guns!

Banshee can put enemies on her radar from a mile away, certainly planning for inevitable attack is something she can do.

Nyx is psychic and mute, who's to say she can't literally see the future?

 

You're saying planning ahead is both a feature unique to liches, and a justification for the single frame that plays a totally separate game from the other 19?

Vauban is an engineer not an inventor.  Loki is a prankster god, and he does that well. Lel, telepathy =/= clairvoyance.

 

Liches are all about planning ahead.  It's how they become liches in the first place. That phylactery isn't going to create and protect itself.

[Archwizard]

Vauban is an engineer not an inventor.  Loki is a prankster god, and he does that well. Lel, telepathy =/= clairvoyance.

 

Liches are all about planning ahead.  It's how they become liches in the first place. That phylactery isn't going to create and protect itself.

 

Engineers are all about planning new solutions for problems (even if they don't build them with their own hands), trickster gods play the long con (longer with immortality), and telepathy (which I will grant, we don't even know she has) tends to come with exerting brainpower. But I'm sure only Nekros, favored of the mindless 3-spamming plat farmers, is the sole recipient there, no?

 

Funny thing is, I think Nekros has just as much trouble dying (and staying dead) as any other frame. Barring that oh so undesirable orb generation, of course.

 

Lel, necromancer =/= lich. He doesn't even properly command the dead well enough to be either.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Archwizard

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Lel, necromancer =/= lich. He doesn't even properly command the dead well enough to be either.

A lich is a very powerful, undead necromancer.

[Archwizard]

A lich is a very powerful, undead necromancer.

 

And clairvoyance is typically paired with other psychic powers, be it the lowest level of attunement (ie vague psychic dreams) or the highest form of mental extension (ie total omniscience). You cling tightly to the belief that one does not always mean the other, so I responded in kind.

 

We're just arguing semantics, now, and driving further away from the point: Even if Nekros were a full-blown "lich" rather than a mere necromancer, there are better ways to represent it than smashing a pinata (or 3 key) until candy pops out - for example, the ability to actually revive himself from death via phylactery.

Unless you're saying that he does exactly that (between missions) through platinum sales of the mods he conjures. But of course, he's not tied to the economy at all!

Edited September 17, 2014 by Archwizard

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

And clairvoyance is typically paired with other psychic powers, be it the lowest level of attunement (ie vague psychic dreams) or the highest form of mental extension (ie total omniscience). You cling tightly to the belief that one does not always mean the other, so I responded in kind.

 

We're just arguing semantics, now, and driving further away from the point: Even if Nekros were a full-blown "lich" rather than a mere necromancer, there are better ways to represent it - for example, the ability to actually revive himself from death via phylactery.

Unless you're saying that he does exactly that (between missions) through platinum sales of the mods he conjures. But of course, he's not tied to the economy at all!

Clairvoyance is seeing the future.  Telepathy is communicating with your mind.  They are not related at all.

 

Nekros looks like a lich, right down to his "boney" design.

[Archwizard]

Nekros looks like a lich, right down to his "boney" design.

 

Good, you're getting to the right part. He looks death-themed. He's named with a death-theme.

 

So why does he play like a gimmicky farmer (can't spell corpse without crops!), rather than a minion-spamming, fear-mongering, soul-draining, magically-debuffing necromancer?

 

After all, you're caught on him not having a phylactery, so where in the necromancer handbook does it say 'wave your hands over a corpse until loose change falls out'?

Edited September 17, 2014 by Archwizard

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Good, you're getting to the right part. He looks death-themed. He's named with a death-theme.

 

So why does he play like a gimmicky farmer (can't spell corpse without crops!), rather than a minion-spamming, fear-mongering, soul-draining, magically-debuffing necromancer?

 

After all, you're caught on him not having a phylactery, so where in the necromancer handbook does it say 'wave your hands over a corpse until loose change falls out'?

He plays like a lich.

[Archwizard]

He plays like a lich.

 

Liches have some control over the actions of the minions they summon. Nekros does not.

Liches have a life-draining physical touch. Nekros does not.

Liches have phylacteries from which they can revive and re-form if their physical body is destroyed. Nekros does not.

 

Nekros can head out to the farmers' market with a full selection of fresh Serration mods. The presence of a lich would cause everything organic in the vicinity to wither and rot.

 

Simply, no. No he does not.

[Aumaan]

He plays like a lich.

Quite simply, no he doesn't.  He plays like a necromancer, just a crappy one currently.

 

He is currently nothing but a frame for farming.  I'm re-leveling Nekros right now and practically all of his abilities are useless sans desecrate.

 

Soul Punch is practically pointless and for anything above level 14 it's just a single target stun (yep, so necromancery right there).  

 

Terrify is alright theme wise but mechanically it's worthless because it makes it harder to kill things; pretty strange for someone who's supposed to control the dead right? How's he supposed to control things if he can't kill them.

 

I really love Desecrate, I love making it rain mods and resources but even I realize that it isn't as necromancery themed as it could be.  Getting mods and resources is more like grave robbing for trinkets instead of for bodies.  At least energy and health orbs could be spun as draining the remaining life force.  

 

Shadows is his most Necromancer-like ability and even it really needs work. What kind of necromancer can't command his troops? What kind of necromancer summons troops of such incompetence (seriously, other than infested they're all mostly useless as shadows because they can't shoot worth a damn and hide instead of shooting)?

 

 

And, most basic of all, there is not a phylactery-like ability on him which is the main aspect of a Lich.

 

 

 

Give Terrify some kind of Viral proc while they're in the area and a weakening aura, make it a toggle and you've got a nice undead withering aura.  To keep the fleeing aspect just change the animation so the enemies slowly back away in fear instead of sprinting.

 

Either make Soul Punch proc something and buff it's AOE (either on contact or make the target explode on death) or buff the damage and buff the AOE (Seriously, that thing is garbage right now).  Also, remove the precision needed to hit something with the ability.  It' easier to kill things room away with a bow than it is to hit something with Soul Punch.

 

Fix the Shadows AI and buff them a bit so they can take much more punishment than their living form (zombies can take much more punishment after all). Make it so enemies killed by shadows are added to the next Shadows of the Dead queue so Nekros is more of an undead commander who doesn't even have to kill enemies himself because he has undead troops to do that for him.  Maybe prioritize heavy units above normal units for summoning no matter the order they're killed in (also buff the number of the souls he can have at the ready) And give us a way to command them.  Make it so pressing the power button while the power is in use while targeting something makes the shadows target that or something like that.

 

Again, I would love for Desecrate to stay the same but if we're making Nekros fit his theme like he should it needs to change.  Making corpses explode would be a good addition or maybe give them a damage/viral proc aura for a few seconds after desecrating. 

 

 

EDIT: As for thoughts on OP's changes.

 

 

Soul Punch: Like I said above, it needs a proc and AOE or a damage boost so I definitely agree with that.  Spawning a Shadow definitely sounds like a very good idea, I just don't know how balanced it would be. It would need a limit on the number than could be summoned but it would need to be more than 1 otherwise it would probably be useless.

 

Terrify: Terrify synergizing with Desecrate is interesting and it would definitely help with the running issues Terrify has, but the range of corpse detection would have to be high. Also, with how fast some bodies disappear it might just be better to Desecrate and explode them and not worry about Terrify.

 

Desecrate: Stuff I posted above basically covers this.

 

 

Shadows: Again, we seem to agree on everything.  I really like the idea of some kind of visual indicator for the number of available souls. It would be a nice little thing to give the frame something...more.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Aumaan

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Liches have some control over the actions of the minions they summon. Nekros does not.

Liches have a life-draining physical touch. Nekros does not.

Liches have phylacteries from which they can revive and re-form if their physical body is destroyed. Nekros does not.

 

Nekros can head out to the farmers' market with a full selection of fresh Serration mods. The presence of a lich would cause everything organic in the vicinity to wither and rot.

 

Simply, no. No he does not.

He does have control over them, it is juct obscured by gameplay mechanics. He is basically choosing which ones to revive and controlling them to work for him.  Notice how they only attack enemies.

Soul punch.

You ever notice how Nekros never dies?  Even if you run out of revives, you just exit the mission then can do it again.  A lich's body will regen. That doesn't mean it will regen instantly; it can take up to 10 days..

 

A lich is not anti-life. They also have increased charisma and searching ability.  That search bonus sounds an awful lot like desecrate, huh?

 

EDIT: They also have double goods and items.

Edited September 17, 2014 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[Archwizard]

He does have control over them, it is juct obscured by gameplay mechanics. He is basically choosing which ones to revive and controlling them to work for him.  Notice how they only attack enemies.

Soul punch.

You ever notice how Nekros never dies?  Even if you run out of revives, you just exit the mission then can do it again.  A lich's body will regen. That doesn't mean it will regen instantly; it can take up to 10 days..

 

A lich is not anti-life. They also have increased charisma and searching ability.  That search bonus sounds an awful lot like desecrate, huh?

 

EDIT: They also have double goods and items.

 

1) I said actions. Yes, you can control what to summon, but only if you're being picky with your kills. (Granting, if you're just spamming Desecrate, not like you need to worry about any kills at all.) His abilities have little synergy with the pets themselves; he can't heal the pets, the armor reduction is as laughable as it is difficult for his pets to benefit from, etc.

2) Soul Punch isn't a life drain, it's a targeted ragdoll.

3) So does every other frame. Does that mean they're all liches? Is Ordis a horcrux?

 

At this point, I think we're delving into a very specific edition of D&D for the definition of Lich, despite its now more prominent usage in literature and varying RPGs...

 

4) Not really. Locate Corpse does exactly what it says on the tin, Desecrate disintegrates corpses if it works.

5) Only from their own deaths. Not something I imagine you'd want to invoke often.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

1) I said actions. Yes, you can control what to summon, but only if you're being picky with your kills. (Granting, if you're just spamming Desecrate, not like you need to worry about any kills at all.) His abilities have little synergy with the pets themselves; he can't heal the pets, the armor reduction is as laughable as it is difficult for his pets to benefit from, etc.

2) Soul Punch isn't a life drain, it's a targeted ragdoll.

3) So does every other frame. Does that mean they're all liches? Is Ordis a horcrux?

 

At this point, I think we're delving into a very specific edition of D&D for the definition of Lich, despite its now more prominent usage in literature and varying RPGs...

 

4) Not really. Locate Corpse does exactly what it says on the tin, Desecrate disintegrates corpses if it works.

5) Only from their own deaths. Not something I imagine you'd want to invoke often.

1.) He is controlling them as in making them only harm enemies.  The rest is gameplay mechanic limitations.

2.) A Lich's touch doesn't drain life it paralyzes, just like soul punch.

 

DnD goes the most in depth with them.

 

4.) I didn't say locate corpse.  I said search.

5.) They had to get that extra loot somehow. 

[Archwizard]

1.) He is controlling them as in making them only harm enemies.  The rest is gameplay mechanic limitations.

2.) A Lich's touch doesn't drain life it paralyzes, just like soul punch.

 

DnD goes the most in depth with them.

 

4.) I didn't say locate corpse.  I said search.

5.) They had to get that extra loot somehow. 

 

I'm honestly not sure what amount of willful ignorance is required to still be arguing about this, using only limited or explicit definitions, in spite of all presented evidence to the contrary and additional opinions chiming in.

 

Nekros is a lich in looks only. He's nominally a necromancer, but the act of raising the dead only enters gameplay in one skill, which doesn't nearly live up to its full potential - which this thread is requesting a buff for, as with several others. He also has very little interaction with his minions once they're up, which is half the point of necromancer gameplay: buffing or healing your zombie hordes while they whittle down your foes for you. 

 

Otherwise he's just a poorly-designed 3-spamming farmer with soul gimmicks, and we need to stop humoring Scott about his present state.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Archwizard