Lex Prime And Marelok

[Arunafeltz]

Lato was buffed with U14; give it a try.

And the Aklato remains shet. I await the day where we finally get a pair of akimbo sidearms like the Aklato that doesn't feature any mechanics like non-hitscan, critical or status based etc. Just a pair of semi-autos with good fire rate, good magazine size, decent accuracy, decent recoil, decent damage and decent reload speed. Guns that don't excel in any particular area but don't outright suck either.

[Arabaxus]

And the Aklato remains shet. I await the day where we finally get a pair of akimbo sidearms like the Aklato that doesn't feature any mechanics like non-hitscan, critical or status based etc. Just a pair of semi-autos with good fire rate, good magazine size, decent accuracy, decent recoil, decent damage and decent reload speed. Guns that don't excel in any particular area but don't outright suck either.

 

Kind of off topic, but what's wrong with AKVastos or AKMagnus? Both are hitscan and respectable weapons.

[Arunafeltz]

Kind of off topic, but what's wrong with AKVastos or AKMagnus? Both are hitscan and respectable weapons.

They just don't have the same feel. Both are also crit-type(status for Magnus) kind of guns, they're revolvers, don't have as good a magazine size etc. Not saying that they aren't good of course, but they just can't replace the old Aklato in the old days.

[HollowExistence]

Your statement is nonsensical.  A "good" player doesnt need ridiculous weapons to kill things enmasse, where a bad one would.  Hence, a bad player would be fighting to keep the ridiculous weapons the same, and a "good" one would either leave it alone or call it a crutch..

 

As I have used neither, Lex Prime or Marelok at this point I have no input on this subject.

Nonsensical?

When you progress you start breakingyour limits and push survival, defense and interception more and more.

Good weapons are needed, can't fight with MkI Bratons all the time!

Some weapons will be stronger and some will be the strongest no matter what you do

[blade00000009]

This is getting off topic. I do not want to see people talking about the lato, akimbo secondaries and the seer. Make your own threads for that. Vote which the strawpoll and then any further comments on the matter reply here. I will post a screenshot of the results about 2 times a day. 

[Quizel]

Don't forget the coin flips, friend. It's also what is holding the sniper rifles back from being true skill-based weapons. Even after you line up your perfect headshot, you have to cross your toes(fingers busy aiming) and hope that the shot you just fired was a critical so you can score that sweet critical + weak spot damage multiplier that people want to 1-shot Void Heavy Gunners and tanky Eximi with.

Well, with a 1.8 multishot one can expect 1-2 crits per shot from Lex Prime fairly commonly. Here's a pic of my spreadsheet I decided not to post it in a similar Mareloc vs LP thread which I think is relevant here.  

 

Wep 1 is a ~15k sustained dps marelok build modeling chest shot estimates and wep 2 is a Lex Prime build with crit mods and modeling head shots. Enemy type not specified.

 

There's a ton of analysis one can pull from this but what is important to notice is that marelok's best scenario is reached and surpassed by Lexprime 79.7% of the time with much much much higher damage possibilities.

 

Granted take this printout with a grain of salt because of the things previously stated post #63.

[Azawarau]

Well, with a 1.8 multishot one can expect 1-2 crits per shot from Lex Prime fairly commonly. Here's a pic of my spreadsheet I decided not to post it in a similar Mareloc vs LP thread which I think is relevant here.  

 

Wep 1 is a ~15k sustained dps marelok build modeling chest shot estimates and wep 2 is a Lex Prime build with crit mods and modeling head shots. Enemy type not specified.

 

There's a ton of analysis one can pull from this but what is important to notice is that marelok's best scenario is reached and surpassed by Lexprime 79.7% of the time with much much much higher damage possibilities.

 

Granted take this printout with a grain of salt because of the things previously stated post #63.

Are you comparing chest shot marelok to headshot lex prime here....

[Quizel]

Are you comparing chest shot marelok to headshot lex prime here....

Yes, read post #63 for the reasoning. It was more of a response post to Arunafeltz about the rng crits.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Quizel

[Azawarau]

Yes, read post #63 for the reasoning. It was more of a response post to Arunafeltz about the rng crits.

It still feels like a really unfair comparison here

 

EDIT

 

Ill work on building a Marelok today and inputting my opinion o the two

Edited September 17, 2014 by Azawarau

[Arabaxus]

Yes, read post #63 for the reasoning. It was more of a response post to Arunafeltz about the rng crits.

 

Lex Prime base critical chance = .44

Base Damage multiplier = 3.2

 

 

Every single headshot immediately does 200% damage, assuming no helmets and stuff. So the base multiplier is 2.0x. Lex Prime has 44% chance to Crit for 320%, doubled on a headshot, so 44% chance to deal a 640% shot, or another base 2.816x multiplier. That said:

 

9477 * 4.816 = 45641 DPS assuming each and every single shot fired hits the head and rounds are fired at maximum possible fire rate.

 

Marelok

 

 

15% base Critical at 1.5x 

 

Base headshot multiplier =  2.0x

 

Stacked Critical multiplier (headshot crit) = 3.0x (1.5x * 2)

 

Marelok 15% to hit 3.0x = 0.45x effective multiplier.

 

14762 * 2.45 = 36166 DPS, again assuming each and every single shot fired hits the head and rounds are fired at maximum possible fire rate.

 

Headshot Marelok:

 

 

Base headshot multiplier = 2.0x

 

Stacked Critical Multiplier = 4.8x

 

Critical Chance = 33.0%

 

33% to hit 4.8x multiplier = 1.584 base multiplier

 

13015 * 3.584 multiplier = 46645 DPS, again assuming each and every single shot fired hits the head and rounds are fired at maximum possible fire rate.

 

With a fair comparison, even with the headshot oriented stats Lex Prime has, Marelok inches above Lex Prime if both are built to hit maximum headshots under ideal conditions.

 

Meanwhile Marelok still maintains stronger non-headshot DPS, higher per bullet damage, and higher status chance. All these are characteristics of precision weapons, see Bows and Latron Prime, but Lex Prime suffers greatly from both per bullet damage/damage output and status chance.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Arabaxus

[blade00000009]

To be realistic I never got a 3 bullet and 3 crit headshot ever before. I will be lucky to even get 3 bullets in the first place. Even so what Arabaxus said is correct. The marelok still wins. Some of you a fighting not to buff a weapon. I find it funny because we don't want to nerf weapons to it can be on par we want to buff weapons so it can be on par. I hit almost a crit 1/2 times with the build arabaxus is using and 1/15 times I would say I hit 2 crits but those crits are not at the maximum level of crits in which I have gotten whihc was around 15k. I get 8k crits a lot sometimes 10k. Marelok wins with it's rare damage output. For comparison on how the weapon functions soma = lex prime marelok = boltor prime BUT the boltor prime is a little bit on top of the soma. The marelok is way above the lex prime. That comparison is solid and if we just buff the lex prime with critical chance and some damage I would be happy that I can perform at the level of the marelok now. My buff would be Physical damage: 105:  10.5 impact 84 puncture  10.5 slash Crit chance: 25% or 30% (With a max pistol gambit you will get 55% with a crit base of 25% and 66% with a base crit of 30%) Crit damage 2.5 or buff target cracker mod to 90% Status chance base 15% I decided to lower this for you status marelok lovers. 

[MechaTails]

I find it funny because we don't want to nerf weapons to it can be on par we want to buff weapons so it can be on par.

 

I find it funny that there's even an argument at all. Both weapons OHKO whatever the hell they hit, so who cares lol. One's a mine and one's a grenade, they're equally effective when used appropriately.

[Arabaxus]

I find it funny that there's even an argument at all. Both weapons OHKO whatever the hell they hit, so who cares lol. One's a mine and one's a grenade, they're equally effective when used appropriately.

 

The numbers suggest otherwise.

[MechaTails]

Nah, OHKO is the same thing no matter what the number.

[Noble_Cactus]

Nah, OHKO is the same thing no matter what the number.

 

One gun has a shorter reload than the other, and has less recoil than the other. When both weapons kill in one hit, but one weapon does it more quickly and more reliably than the other, then the Lex Prime is at a disadvantage.

[Arabaxus]

Nah, OHKO is the same thing no matter what the number.

 

OHK is not infinite. One scales off faster than the other, and this effect is greater magnified when taking into consideration the average shot is a body shot.

[MechaTails]

One gun has a shorter reload than the other, and has less recoil than the other. When both weapons kill in one hit, but one weapon does it more quickly and more reliably than the other, then the Lex Prime is at a disadvantage.

Reload is negligible, I'm usually taking cover or recharging energy when reloading anyway, so longer reload is fine; slightly more time to charge batteries lol.

Recoil, pffff. I cant even remember when recoil was ever a problem with a weapon. And if it ever, I must have gotten used to it within a minute of using the weapon, so again, negligible.

I understand what you're saying, but one weapon isnt radically more difficult to use than the other. Both the weapons are murder machines when actually used, even level 50 to 60 enemies are destroyed in a hit. And having one weapon kill faster on paper doesnt mean much, it doesnt take into consideration all the distractions and stuff you have to do in game that eats up precious killing time, like looking for cover, dodging things, restoring life support, etc.

I could understand if every time you fired the Lex a midget popped out and stabbed your foot with a garden trowel, damn, that would definitely put the Lex P at a disavantage!

I used both weapons today, the noticeable difference was that the Lex P is way more accurate and it sounds manlier lol

Edited September 18, 2014 by DarkTails

[Arabaxus]

Reload is negligible, I'm usually taking cover or recharging energy when reloading anyway, so longer reload is fine; slightly more time to charge batteries lol.

Recoil, pffff. I cant even remember when recoil was ever a problem with a weapon. And if it ever, I must have gotten used to it within a minute of using the weapon, so again, negligible.

I understand what you're saying, but one weapon isnt radically more difficult to use than the other. Both the weapons are murder machines when actually used, even level 50 to 60 enemies are destroyed in a hit. And having one weapon kill faster on paper doesnt mean much, it doesnt take into consideration all the distractions and stuff you have to do in game that eats up precious killing time, like looking for cover, dodging things, restoring life support, etc.

I could understand if every time you fired the Lex a midget popped out and stabbed your foot with a garden trowel, damn, that would definitely put the Lex P at a disavantage!

I used both weapons today, the noticeable difference was that the Lex P is way more accurate and it sounds manlier lol

 

Then you haven't gone into any levels high enough for you to notice the difference. Meanwhile, you talk about how Recoil and Reload don't matter to you, which is perfectly fine, but do not assume that all players experience the same thing as you. I'm not talking about how much more difficult to use one weapon is compared to another, as they are basically the same weapon, a slow firing, hard hitting secondary with statistical differences, I am talking about why one is outrageously more powerful than the other when they should be equivalent, each surpassing the other in its particular niche.

[MechaTails]

At what point will I see the difference between the weapons? Against level 70+ enemies when the game isnt balanced for that and isn't even fun anymore? If that's the case then I say the weapons are fine as is, until such a time DE rebalances all weapons to be equally effective against those level enemies, while still maintaining each weapon's stat balance/niche usage.

[Quizel]

 

Lex Prime base critical chance = .44

Base Damage multiplier = 3.2

 

Every single headshot immediately does 200% damage, assuming no helmets and stuff. So the base multiplier is 2.0x. Lex Prime has 44% chance to Crit for 320%, doubled on a headshot, so 44% chance to deal a 640% shot, or another base 2.816x multiplier. That said:

 

9477 * 4.816 = 45641 DPS assuming each and every single shot fired hits the head and rounds are fired at maximum possible fire rate.

Headshot Marelok:

 

Base headshot multiplier = 2.0x

 

Stacked Critical Multiplier = 4.8x

 

Critical Chance = 33.0%

 

33% to hit 4.8x multiplier = 1.584 base multiplier

 

13015 * 3.584 multiplier = 46645 DPS, again assuming each and every single shot fired hits the head and rounds are fired at maximum possible fire rate.

 

With a fair comparison, even with the headshot oriented stats Lex Prime has, Marelok inches above Lex Prime if both are built to hit maximum headshots under ideal conditions.

 

Well, my calcs show Marelok more than a hair above lex prime if we allow it to be modeled with head shot. I'd still argue Marelok isn't accurate enough consistently beyond 20m. One of the 2 or 3 bullets will miss the small target time to time, especially if ur recticle isn't perfectly bullseyed->(Getting near the head seems hard enough, getting a bullseye recticle all the time is well beyond my skill :D). Lex Prime is accurate enough when holding the zoom so that as long as ur targeting the edge of the head it'll always hit.

 

Printout comparing WF builder calcs

Build used mimics Arabaxus's Crit Builds a few post above.

(next graph for headshots) 

 

Now showing Head Shot Estimates. The small Proc Dmg Estimates are also included in the circled values.  The numbers that should have matched between mine and Arabaxus is the dps calculation slightly above the graph (located where the circled numbers are in the printout above).

 

I tried to circle/trace relevant info, granted unless you know how the hidden equations used doesn't do too much >.>.  When the Plan on Head shot box has a 1 in it, base dmg doubles and the crit multiplier value doubles.  Critical Modifier Coef equation is CM*CC + 1*(1-CC) where CC is crit chance and CM is crit multiplier. Well, there's more to the Critical Modifier Coef Eq but the other parts only pertain to red crits. The simple WF Builder dps for the spreadsheet is the product of all the coef of each section and doesn't consider armor/health type or estimated proc dmg.

 

Note:I believe a proper average head shot multiplier equation is 2*head_shot_critical_modifier_coef / non-headshot_critical_modifier_coef. If it isn't clear, take that value and multiply it by the sustained dps found on wf builder. Everyone seems to have their own guesstimates for this equation :D. Spreadsheet doesn't actually compute that coef though, it just puts the values in automagically.

 

***9477 * 4.816 = 45641 DPS****  if the head shot multiplier is greater than 4 and ur not considering proc dmg, something is wrong ;). So many numbers, brain gonna fry soon.

 

Against a level 40 corrupted HG (1577 ferrite armor), assuming no corrosive projection, considering only head shots, and procs disabled, Marelok is only 11% higher dps than LP. (The slash proc of marelok becomes invaluable the heavier the armored target is when x4 CP isn't being used.

 

If x4 CP is being used against a lvl 40 corrupted HG , considering head shots, and procs disabled, marelok is 23% higher dps. All the same conditions with procs enabled, Marelok is 34% higher.

 

Hopefully that's comprehensive enough >.>.  I still say marelok isn't accurate enough to be a dependable head shot weapon though. Any deviation beyond a bullseye recticle past 20m and you'll start missing time to time pretty sure. It's just hard to notice when 2-3 bullets are shot and you may see proc dmg show up as well.

 

Sleep time >.< Brain is fried.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Quizel

[RealPandemonium]

At what point will I see the difference between the weapons? Against level 70+ enemies when the game isnt balanced for that and isn't even fun anymore? If that's the case then I say the weapons are fine as is, until such a time DE rebalances all weapons to be equally effective against those level enemies, while still maintaining each weapon's stat balance/niche usage.

Remember, infinite content shills will always be present in balance threads asking for buffs to everything.  It's best not to acknowledge them except when necessary.

Edited September 18, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[Gahrzerkire]

Just remember power creep guys.

[Arabaxus]

Just remember power creep guys.

 

Just remember Lex Prime came out after Marelok.

 

Stop making blatantly wrong accusations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, my calcs show Marelok more than a hair above lex prime if we allow it to be modeled with head shot. I'd still argue Marelok isn't accurate enough consistently beyond 20m. One of the 2 or 3 bullets will miss the small target time to time, especially if ur recticle isn't perfectly bullseyed->(Getting near the head seems hard enough, getting a bullseye recticle all the time is well beyond my skill :D). Lex Prime is accurate enough when holding the zoom so that as long as ur targeting the edge of the head it'll always hit.

 

Printout comparing WF builder calcs

Build used mimics Arabaxus's Crit Builds a few post above.

(next graph for headshots) 

 

Now showing Head Shot Estimates. The small Proc Dmg Estimates are also included in the circled values.  The numbers that should have matched between mine and Arabaxus is the dps calculation slightly above the graph (located where the circled numbers are in the printout above).

 

I tried to circle/trace relevant info, granted unless you know how the hidden equations used doesn't do too much >.>.  When the Plan on Head shot box has a 1 in it, base dmg doubles and the crit multiplier value doubles.  Critical Modifier Coef equation is CM*CC + 1*(1-CC) where CC is crit chance and CM is crit multiplier. Well, there's more to the Critical Modifier Coef Eq but the other parts only pertain to red crits. The simple WF Builder dps for the spreadsheet is the product of all the coef of each section and doesn't consider armor/health type or estimated proc dmg.

 

Note:I believe a proper average head shot multiplier equation is 2*head_shot_critical_modifier_coef / non-headshot_critical_modifier_coef. If it isn't clear, take that value and multiply it by the sustained dps found on wf builder. Everyone seems to have their own guesstimates for this equation :D. Spreadsheet doesn't actually compute that coef though, it just puts the values in automagically.

 

***9477 * 4.816 = 45641 DPS****  if the head shot multiplier is greater than 4 and ur not considering proc dmg, something is wrong ;). So many numbers, brain gonna fry soon.

 

Against a level 40 corrupted HG (1577 ferrite armor), assuming no corrosive projection, considering only head shots, and procs disabled, Marelok is only 11% higher dps than LP. (The slash proc of marelok becomes invaluable the heavier the armored target is when x4 CP isn't being used.

 

If x4 CP is being used against a lvl 40 corrupted HG , considering head shots, and procs disabled, marelok is 23% higher dps. All the same conditions with procs enabled, Marelok is 34% higher.

 

Hopefully that's comprehensive enough >.>.  I still say marelok isn't accurate enough to be a dependable head shot weapon though. Any deviation beyond a bullseye recticle past 20m and you'll start missing time to time pretty sure. It's just hard to notice when 2-3 bullets are shot and you may see proc dmg show up as well.

 

Sleep time >.< Brain is fried.

 

So basically we agree that even the Crit oriented Lex Prime is worse than Marelok when it comes to Crit builds. Fantastic. This is solid evidence that Lex ought to be buffed.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Arabaxus

[Gahrzerkire]

Just remember Lex Prime came out after Marelok.

 

Stop making blatantly wrong accusations.

 

My accusation i guess may be the fact that because the Lex IS a sniper pistol the Marelok is a sawed off SNIPER mabye we should remember sniper rifles are more powerful then sniper pistols.

 

Increasing Lex damage in my opinion would be ridiculous because it shouldn't out power a Marelok which fires sniper rounds, last time i checked sawed off didn't mean caliber reduction. However lowering Marelok accuracy is not.

 

....oh... and technically sniper pistols don't exist....

Edited September 18, 2014 by Olivionic

[HollowExistence]

Primes do not need to be the strongest!

The lex is in a good spot