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[Balance] Giving All Warframe Powers Cooldown Times To Balance Pvp: A List Of All Powers


Cythphn
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Warframe Powers in Dark Sector PvP

 

In Dark Sector conflicts, a lot of Warframe abilities are problematic for game balance. A few players have been coming up with suggestions for changing the way powers work in PvP on a higher level recently: they talked about not balancing individual abilities, but re-working the way powers work in general in several threads.

 

The best suggestion seemed to be giving every power a cooldown and in this post, I’m going to attempt to come up with balanced cooldowns (or limited uses) for all powers and motivate why these cooldowns are as long as they are, because I would love to see this idea being developed further. Please provide feedback, because the list is undoubtedly not perfect, especially not with my limited knowledge of how certain Warframes perform in PvP (mostly Hydroid, Nyx and Zephyr) – I’m not exactly the most experienced PvP’er around. Anyway, here it is:

 

Ash

 

»Shuriken: Shuriken does a lot of damage in PvP and is hard to avoid, because of the shurikens being homing. The slash proc hits pretty hard, too. It makes sense to give Shuriken a relatively long cooldown for a slot-one-power because of these two reasons.

Suggested cooldown:  20s

 

»Smoke Screen: Being invisible gives major tactical advantages and because of that, it should not be available whenever the Ash player wants it to be. Because of the short duration, though, Smoke Screen won’t get a cooldown as long as Loki’s Invisibility.

Suggested cooldown: 30s

 

»Teleport: Teleport can provide valuable mobility, but it’s not game-breaking. For a pure mobility skill, the cooldown should be short.

Suggested cooldown: 5s

 

»Blade Storm: Blade Storm is the most game-breaking thing in the Dark Sectors and needs an extremely long cooldown for balance. The Ash player should only be able to use it two or three times per match.

Suggested cooldown: 300s (five minutes)

 

Banshee

 

»Sonic Boom: Sonic Boom is very annoying when it is spammed in the Duelling Room in the Dojo, but in the much larger Solar Rail maps, it is not as bad. Spamming it should still not be a thing, though, because forcing someone into rolling or getting knocked down - and then likely killed - is not exactly fair.

Suggested cooldown: 10s

 

»Sonar: Sonar is handy when you’re chasing someone in the Conclaves, but it is not that useful in the Dark Sectors. It is a welcome way of dealing with invisible targets, though, and should therefore not be too spam-able.

Suggested cooldown: 30s

 

»Silence: Silence does not work on players and is therefore nearly useless in the Dark Sectors. It gets a cooldown, because all other abilities get one, too.

Suggested cooldown: 20s

 

»Sound Quake: Sound Quake is really good if you manage to trap the entire opposing team in its radius. If you can’t, you’ll be killed. It’s potentially very good for defending objectives, but usually, the Banshee player will just get shot from range. Because of the high risk and the toggled nature of the power, the cooldown should not be super long.

Suggested cooldown: 45s

 

Ember

 

»Fireball: Fireball is a very good power in PvP. The high damage, the AoE and the fire proc make it one of the better slot-one-powers. It is not as dangerous as Shuriken, though, and should therefore be given a shorter cooldown.

Suggested cooldown: 10s

 

»Accelerant: Accelerant does not stun other players, but does make them more vulnerable to fire damage. This power could be deadly, depending on how the Ember player’s weapons are modded. Because of this, it is either really good, or utterly useless. Spamming accelerant doesn’t do anything, so this potentially very dangerous ability does not need a long cooldown.

Suggested cooldown: 20s

 

»Fire Blast: Fire Blast doesn’t deal a lot of damage and the low-damage ring will not stop anyone from activating a console, unless it is very well placed. This power is the least useful one in Ember’s arsenal, which is why the cooldown shouldn’t be too long.

Suggested cooldown: 10s

 

»World on Fire: World on Fire can absolutely devastate the opposing team and should have a very long cooldown because of this.

Suggested cooldown: 120s

 

Excalibur

 

»Slash Dash: Slash Dash doesn’t deal a spectacular amount damage, but is a useful mobility power. The combination of low damage and good mobility make a short cooldown the right choice.

Suggested cooldown: 10s

 

»Radial Blind: Radial Blind is annoying, but it will be rebalanced in the near future, making it avoidable. There should still be a moderate cooldown to stop the Excalibur player from spamming it though: Radial Blind should only be used when it is really necessary.

Suggested cooldown: 30s

 

»Super Jump: Super Jump doesn’t really need a cooldown, because it is nothing more than a high jump.

Suggested cooldown: 2s

 

»Radial Javelin: Radial Javelin is a very slow and fairly low-damage slot-four-power. It doesn’t need a very long cooldown.

Suggested cooldown: 45s

 

Frost

 

»Freeze: Freeze launches a projectile that is very hard to land, but has really bad consequences for the target if the Frost player manages to hit him. The cooldown shouldn’t be too long, just to give the poor Frost player a chance to finally hit something after eight tries.

Suggested cooldown: 8s

 

»Ice Wave: Ice Wave is very powerful, but does require some skill to use. It is a power that I would actually call balanced in PvP. That said, it should not be possible to spam it, because of the damage it deals and because of the cold proc.

Suggested cooldown: 15s

 

»Snow Globe: Snow Globe is a game-breaker. The slow is unbearable, which is why Snow Globe needs a very long cooldown. In addition to that, there should be a maximum number of Snow Globes that can be on the map at any given time. That number is one.

Suggested cooldown: 120s

Suggested object limit (map): 1

 

»Avalanche: Avalanche is an extremely good slot-four-power, because it stops everything it hits and then deals heavy damage to it. Spamming Avalanche will stunlock everything, including a Valkyr under the effect of Hysteria – which is why Avalanche also needs a very long cooldown.

Suggested cooldown: 120s

 

Hydroid

 

»Tempest Barrage: Tempest Barrage is very powerful if it is called in on the correct spot. It will stun a player in a very annoying fashion and could deal very heavy damage to him, especially if the Hydroid player uses duration mods. Because of all this, the cooldown should not be short for a slot-one-power.

Suggested cooldown: 30s

 

»Tidal Surge: Tidal Surge is the most powerful direct damage/mobility power in the game and because of that, it should have a longer cooldown than the other ones (Slash Dash, Rhino Charge and Tail Wind).

Suggested cooldown: 20s

 

»Undertow: Undertow is something that a Hydroid player can use to get of trouble whenever he wants to. Without a cooldown, Undertow is potentially one of the most annoying and unbalanced abilities around. The cooldown should be fairly long, in order to make the Hydroid player think twice before using it.

Suggested cooldown: 60s

 

»Tentacle Swarm: Tentacle Swarm is a more annoying variant of Tempest Barrage in PvP. It needs a longer cooldown than Tempest Barrage.

Suggested cooldown: 90s

 

Loki

 

»Decoy: Decoy is not very useful in the Dark Sector conflicts, because it only distracts the AI-controlled enemies. It doesn’t need much of a cooldown.

Suggested cooldown: 10s

 

»Invisibility: Invisibility provides a major tactical advantage over other players for a decent duration. It should have a fairly long cooldown.

Suggested cooldown: 45s

 

»Switch Teleport: Switch Teleport is among the more annoying powers in PvP and should not be spam-able. It needs a short cooldown.

Suggested cooldown: 15s

 

»Radial Disarm: Radial Disarm’s magnetic proc and shield removal/damage are fairly powerful against players in the Dark Sectors and render the AI-controlled enemies practically irrelevant. The cooldown should be quite long.

Suggested cooldown: 90s

 

Mag

 

»Pull: Pull is powerful against other players, provided they do not attempt to avoid getting knocked down and are not in some way knockdown-resistant. The 300 magnetic damage is not insignificant, because it is actually 525 damage to shields. This means that Pull should have a longer cooldown than most other slot-one-powers.

Suggested cooldown: 20s

 

»Shield Polarize: Shield Polarize is pretty powerful against multiple enemies, but against one player, shooting might have a better effect – the effectiveness of this power depends entirely on the situation. The cooldown should be moderate.

Suggested cooldown: 20s

 

»Bullet Attractor: Bullet Attractor is a nightmare to have to deal with when it’s on you. The cooldown should be fairly long.

Suggested cooldown: 45s

 

»Crush: Crush, despite its long casting animation is a good CC/damage-power and should not be spam-able. The cooldown should be fairly long.

Suggested cooldown: 60s

 

Mirage

 

»Hall of Mirrors: Hall of Mirrors is a very powerful slot-one-power that allows for dealing insanely high damage in the opening minutes of a Dark Sector conflict, especially when the Mirage player uses an Attica with Thunderbolt. Because of the effect being so good and the duration being very long, the cooldown has to also be long.

Suggested cooldown: 60s

 

»Sleight of Hand: Sleight of Hand will at most cause a few health and energy orbs to explode in Dark Sector conflicts, which means a short cooldown should be good enough.

Suggested cooldown: 15s

 

»Eclipse: Eclipse is a very powerful buff, which should have a long cooldown, just like Hall of Mirrors.

Suggested cooldown: 60s

 

»Prism: Prism is capable of absolutely annihilating players, but only after a very long casting animation. Because of its toggled nature, it can stay up for a very long time after the animation, though, which makes it a very dangerous slot-four-ability. A very long cooldown seems appropriate.

Suggested cooldown: 120s

 

Nekros

 

»Soul Punch: Soul Punch is Nekros’s only power that is even vaguely useful in PvP. It is quite powerful: it deals 500 damage, even more versus shields, followed by a knockdown and is only hindered by its targeted nature. The cooldown should be a little longer than the cooldown of most other slot-one-powers that deal direct damage.

Suggested cooldown: 20s

 

»Terrify: Terrify is almost completely useless in PvP; it only reduces a player’s armor by 20%. The cooldown should be short.

Suggested cooldown: 10s

 

»Desecrate: Desecrate has no uses in PvP combat. The cooldown should be short.

Suggested cooldown: 10s

 

»Shadows of the Dead: Shadows of the Dead might bring some useful AI-controlled units back into the game, but it won’t have too much effect. The cooldown does not matter much; a moderate cooldown should be good.

Suggested cooldown: 30s

 

Nova

 

»Null Star: Null Star is a fairly good power in Dark Sector conflicts; the projectiles deal 200 slash damage, which is not insignificant in the opening minutes of the conflict. Because of this, the power should have a moderate cooldown.

Suggested cooldown: 30s

 

»Antimatter Drop: Antimatter drop will instantly kill a player nine times out of ten. It should absolutely not be spam-able; the cooldown should be long.

Suggested cooldown: 60s

 

»Worm Hole: Worm Hole is a powerful mobility power, which can also be used to block a console. In order to prevent the latter, the cooldown should be long.

Suggested cooldown: 60s

 

»Molecular Prime: Molecular Prime is just a little less game-breaking than Blade Storm. Getting hit, then slowed, then killed, is often inevitable. Because of this, a very, very long cooldown is in order; although a shorter one than Blade Storm’s.

Suggested cooldown: 180s

 

Nyx

 

»Mind Control: Mind control doesn’t do much against other players and therefore has very limited uses in Dark Sector conflicts. Its cooldown doesn’t really matter.

Suggested cooldown: 10s

 

»Psychic Bolts: Psychic Bolts can be used to deal a lot of damage to other players, but isn’t the most energy-efficient way of doing it. This balances the power quite nicely, meaning that a short cooldown is good enough.

Suggested cooldown: 15s

 

»Chaos: Chaos doesn’t work on other players. Because of that, it has limited uses in Dark Sector conflicts. The cooldown doesn’t really matter.

Suggested cooldown: 10s

 

»Absorb: Absorb can be used to deal have damage to other players and to knock other players down. It can also be used to completely block a console. Because of the latter, the cooldown should be very, very long. A separate nerf for Absorb may also be in order, but that is not what this thread is about.

Suggested cooldown: 180s

 

Oberon

 

»Smite: Smite deals a lot of damage to players, and then to their friends. It is hindered by its targeted nature, but it’s still very powerful. A longer cooldown than the ones for most other slot-one-powers that deal direct damage seems to be the way to go.

Suggested cooldown: 20s

 

»Hallowed Ground: Hallowed Ground can be used as an area denial ability for the consoles in Dark Sector conflicts, which can be disastrous for the attacking team, or the defending team if a console is armed. This means a long cooldown is in order, to prevent spamming it on a console.

Suggested cooldown: 60s

 

»Renewal: Renewal is a powerful healing ability, but it is not game-breaking. A short cooldown should be good enough.

Suggested cooldown: 15s

 

»Reckoning: Reckoning is capable of completely wrecking players and then leaving any survivors vulnerable to follow-up attacks. A very long cooldown should be in place to prevent Oberon players from spamming it.

Suggested cooldown: 90s

 

Rhino

 

»Rhino Charge: Rhino Charge is powerful in PvE, but in the Dark Sector conflicts, anyone you try to hit with it, will try to dodge it, reducing its effectiveness as a damage dealing power. It’s still a mobility-offense combination power, though, which means it won’t get a very short cooldown (like Super Jump), but just a short cooldown (like Slash Dash).

Suggested cooldown: 10s

 

»Iron Skin: Iron Skin is a powerful tanking ability that is hard to deal with in the opening minutes of a match and should have a fairly long cooldown to make up for that. The cooldown is applied as soon as Iron Skin runs out, so that it is not spam-able.

Suggested cooldown: 45s

 

»Roar: Roar is a decent, but expensive buff. It doesn’t seem to be a problem in Dark Sector PvP, so it’ll simply get a moderate cooldown.

Suggested cooldown: 30s

 

»Rhino Stomp: Rhino Stomp is a very powerful and very fast way of killing things or stunning them for the kill. In PvP, this can cause problems, which is why the cooldown should be very long.

Suggested cooldown: 120s

 

Saryn

 

»Venom: Venom might very well be the best slot-one-power in for PvP. It allows the Saryn player to halve the health of not only the target, but also potentially the teammates of said target. With halved health, it is also likely that the damage Venom deals will actually kill several players. Because of all this, Venom should have a long cooldown.

Suggested cooldown: 60s

 

»Molt: It is possible to use Molt twice in quick succession to quickly nuke a small area with poison damage. This is balanced in PvE, but not in PvP; Molt should have a short cooldown to prevent this sort of Molt-nuking. A longer cooldown is unnecessary, because it doesn’t take that long to run away from a Molt.

Suggested cooldown: 10s

 

»Contagion: Contagion is a pretty weak buff and should not really be a problem in PvP, even though it can be used to get poison damage early. Spamming it is pointless, so a cooldown really won’t do much – a short cooldown will do.

Suggested cooldown: 5s

 

»Miasma: Miasma is a very powerful AoE damage skill that will kill pretty much anything in Dark Sector conflicts, even with very few other mods equipped for making it stronger. Something as powerful as miasma should have a very long cooldown.

Suggested cooldown: 120s

 

Trinity

 

»Well of Life: Well of Life is not very effective against players, but is useful when it is put on an AI-controlled unit, because it allows the Trinity player to heal in a cheap and fairly quick way. A cooldown won’t do much for this power, so it should just get a short cooldown.

Suggested cooldown: 15s

 

»Energy Vampire: Energy Vampire allows Trinity players to always have energy for their more useful powers, which makes Energy Vampire itself powerful as well. It should have a moderate cooldown because of this.

Suggested cooldown: 30s

 

»Link: Link is Trinity’s most useful power in combat, because it allows her to win any fight within its range. There are only limited ways of countering Link, so it should have a long cooldown.

Suggested cooldown: 60s

 

»Blessing: Blessing lets Trinity heal her entire team instantly, which makes it extremely powerful. Spamming it is possible without a cooldown, because of Energy Vampire. This means a cooldown, and not a short one, should be added.

Suggested cooldown: 60s

 

Valkyr

 

»Rip Line: Rip Line is vastly more useful in the Conclaves than in the Dark sectors, because of the vertical mobility it can provide. In the Dark Sector conflicts, it doesn’t really do much. A short cooldown should be good enough.

Suggested cooldown: 10s

 

»Warcry: Warcry makes Valkyr very tanky, speeds her melee attack speed up and slows enemies around her down significantly. All of these things are useful in Dark Sector PvP, which makes the power as a whole very powerful. A long cooldown seems like the way to go.

Suggested cooldown: 60s

 

»Paralysis: Paralysis is a very spam-able power and because it happens to be a stun, that is problematic in PvP. To keep it somewhat useful, even with a cooldown, the cooldown will be very short.

Suggested cooldown: 5s

 

»Hysteria: Hysteria is one of the most powerful powers in Dark Sector PvP. The invulnerability it provides should definitely not be available all the time: adding a very long cooldown is a good way to keep it balanced.

Suggested cooldown: 120s

 

Vauban*

 

»Tesla: Tesla can be used to prevent players from reaching consoles and from getting out of their spawns, which makes the power rather overpowered. It should not just be given a cooldown, but there should also be a limited maximum number of Tesla grenades on the map.

Suggested cooldown: 30s

Suggested object limit (map): 3

 

»Bounce: Bounce can be used to prevent players from activating consoles and completely preventing them from progressing. This should not be possible, which is why bounce should get both a very long cooldown and a maximum number of bounce pads on the map.

Suggested cooldown: 120s

Suggested object limit (map): 1

 

»Bastille: Bastille allows Vauban players to slow their opponents down, without giving them the slightest chance of recovering from it. It is also a very effective form of area denial. Bastille should get both an extremely long cooldown and a maximum number of grenades on the map.

Suggested cooldown: 180s

Suggested object limit (map): 1

 

»Vortex: Vortex is a very effective area denial power, that can block access to a very large area of the map for its duration. It should have a very long cooldown and it should be limited to a maximum of one Vortex per map.

Suggested cooldown: 120s

Suggested object limit (map): 1

 

Volt

 

»Shock: Shock is very unreliable in PvP, because it tends to not hit your target and when it hits, it will only deal 200 points worth of electric damage. Because of this, it should not have a long cooldown.

Suggested cooldown: 10s

 

»Speed: Speed can be useful in PvP as a small melee/movement speed buff, but it is not terribly effective when all of your opponents are using Rush and can reach speeds pretty close to yours, which is why Speed should only have a short cooldown.

Suggested cooldown: 10s

 

»Electric Shield: Electric Shield is very useful for blocking all non-explosive, ranged damage. It is really good for (de-)activating a console or reviving a teammate without getting shot to shreds. It should not always be available, because it can make activating consoles and pushing to the core very easy.

Suggested cooldown: 45s

 

»Overload: Overload doesn’t do a lot of damage in Dark Sector PvP, because there aren’t all that many lights and other object that are considered electronic objects by the game. It is also unreliable, because like Shock, it tends not to hit much. It should still have a fairly long cooldown, because it does remain effective against almost all AI-controlled enemies.

Suggested cooldown: 45s

 

Zephyr

 

»Tail Wind: Tail Wind is a powerful power for mobility, that also deals decent damage to anything in Zephyr’s path. This makes it quite powerful in PvP. It is quite similar to Slash Dash, so it gets the same cooldown as that power, but, because you need to use it twice for the dash, the cooldown starts after two casts.

Suggested cooldown: 10s after two casts

 

»Dive Bomb: Dive Bomb is quite a powerful power in PvP, both in terms of damage and CC, but it does require some skill to use. A short-to-moderate cooldown seems like the way to go, because of these two factors balancing each other out.

Suggested cooldown: 20s

 

»Turbulence: Turbulence is Zephyr’s most important power in PvP, because it allows her to deflect and sometimes reflect most ranged attacks that come her way. This ability should definitely not be usable all the time, because that would make Zephyr nearly impossible to kill, if she is correctly positioned by the player.

Suggested cooldown: 45s

 

»Tornado: Tornado is a powerful CC power, but it is also easy to get away from. It is very annoying when it is spammed, though, so it should have a long cooldown.

Suggested cooldown: 60s

 

EDIT 1: Added spoilers.

EDIT 2: Updated Zephyr's section with a change to Tail Wind.

Edited by Cythphn
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Overall cooldowns are too long for a fast paced game but in the end values are up to DE anyway. Agreed! :D

 

 

Interesting ideas to balance. I think most of the cooldowns are little too long but added to  https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/304365-pvp-feedback-and-qol-megathread/

 

 

I came up with these times, based on my experience in several other games, but those aren't as fast-paced as Warframe, so, you might be right. Another reason for their lengths is my opinion on gunplay versus abilities: I think the focus should be on shooting, not on hitting 1, 2, 3 and 4.

Edited by Cythphn
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With such long cooldowns, wouldn't you see defenders use them then just charge the attackers and die to reset their cooldown?

Agreed. CDs should remain persistent.

 

 

 
 

 

I came up with these times, based on my experience in several other games, but those aren't as fast-paced as Warframe, so, you might be right. Another reason for their lengths is my opinion on gunplay versus abilities: I think the focus should be on shooting, not on hitting 1, 2, 3 and 4.

 

Ahh I see your point, I guess it wouldn't hurt if DE gave it a try :)

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With such long cooldowns, wouldn't you see defenders use them then just charge the attackers and die to reset their cooldown?

 

Agreed. CDs should remain persistent.

 

Ahh I see your point, I guess it wouldn't hurt if DE gave it a try :)

 

Yes, cooldowns should remain even after death. I hadn't actually though about that yet.

Edited by Cythphn
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I disagree

 

Its unfitting to warframe

 

Id suggest disabling power efficiency mods and weakening E vamp a bit

 

I agree with this. 

 

Enabling cooldowns will also make DS conflicts last longer- Rail may need to be reworked (More impacting victories or less rail health = Less money). 

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I disagree

 

Its unfitting to warframe

 

Id suggest disabling power efficiency mods and weakening E vamp a bit

 

I agree with this. 

 

Enabling cooldowns will also make DS conflicts last longer- Rail may need to be reworked (More impacting victories or less rail health = Less money). 

 

 

Weakening Power Efficiency mods isn't going to work for everything, whereas cooldowns, if implemented well, will. An example is absorb, which can be cast for very little energy even without Efficiency mods - nerfing power efficiency will simply not do the job, but a cooldown (I suggested 180s in the original post) will definitely prevent players from spamming it.

 

Reworking the rails will not be necessary, because the attackers get a much better chance of winning when the defending team can't do things like placing bounce pads everywhere; the rails may actually change hands again if cooldowns are put into the game. Plus, guns are the things that kill Solar Rail Power Cores, not powers.

 

I think if you add Cd then it should be universal.  I think the point of this is prevent spamming.

 

About Zephyr if Tail Wind is 10s then you can't fly up and fly straight. 

 

Overall cd is too long, like an MMO.

 

Yeah, the main point is to prevent spamming powers in DS conflicts.

Also, a way to fix the problem with Tail Wind would be by starting the cooldown after two casts instead of one. I'll add that to the OP.

 

And for the cooldowns being too long - I think the focus should be on shooting, not on spamming powers. Gunplay>powers, in my opinion.

Edited by Cythphn
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Yeah, the main point is to prevent spamming powers in DS conflicts.

Also, a way to fix the problem with Tail Wind would be by starting the cooldown after two casts instead of one. I'll add that to the OP.

 

And for the cooldowns being too long - I think the focus should be on shooting, not on spamming powers. Gunplay>powers, in my opinion.

 

Sorry man, the powers are what makes this game unique. As I have mentioned before, I am someone who fights 1 v 4 on rails. Such changes make it near impossible to defend the unpopular side. These changes will certainly create a need to rework rails. Below are some examples: less use of powers will extend the duration to end fights, and longer fights increases the need for higher impacting victories, or less health on rails (also results in less battlepay). Furthermore, powers are needed to set up shooting kills. You also need to consider how hard it is to hit targets in PvP: extreme parkour, coptering, sprint, slide, roll, etc - Why we need Snares, bleeds, slows, knock downs - If kills were dependent on solely fire arms, some matches may never end or last hours.   

 

Currently, powers uses are limited to getting energy orbs and leveling. It is a good system. I acknowledge the existence of fleeting expertise and constitution mods - but that requires significant leveling to get to it, which is a weakness anyone can exploit. If you PvP with me, I can show you. 

 

Red 

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Weakening Power Efficiency mods isn't going to work for everything, whereas cooldowns, if implemented well, will. An example is absorb, which can be cast for very little energy even without Efficiency mods - nerfing power efficiency will simply not do the job, but a cooldown (I suggested 180s in the original post) will definitely prevent players from spamming it.

 

Reworking the rails will not be necessary, because the attackers get a much better chance of winning when the defending team can't do things like placing bounce pads everywhere; the rails may actually change hands again if cooldowns are put into the game. Plus, guns are the things that kill Solar Rail Power Cores, not powers.

Using or spamming absorb as it is now would be extremely difficult without efficiency being as high as it is

 

The same goes for before the recent change

 

Without efficiency it wouldnt have been possible to keep it up for ages on end

 

Cooldowns slow the game down in a very bad way

 

This is coming from a player who mains valkyr pure melee and rarely touches any powers in game aside from warcry

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Sorry man, the powers are what makes this game unique. As I have mentioned before, I am someone who fights 1 v 4 on rails. Such changes make it near impossible to defend the unpopular side. These changes will certainly create a need to rework rails. Below are some examples: less use of powers will extend the duration to end fights, and longer fights increases the need for higher impacting victories, or less health on rails (also results in less battlepay). Furthermore, powers are needed to set up shooting kills. You also need to consider how hard it is to hit targets in PvP: extreme parkour, coptering, sprint, slide, roll, etc - Why we need Snares, bleeds, slows, knock downs - If kills were dependent on solely fire arms, some matches may never end or last hours.   

 

Currently, powers uses are limited to getting energy orbs and leveling. It is a good system. I acknowledge the existence of fleeting expertise and constitution mods - but that requires significant leveling to get to it, which is a weakness anyone can exploit. If you PvP with me, I can show you. 

 

Red 

 

Going 1v4 should be difficult; that's how numerical (dis)advantages work. If powers are OP enough to allow one player to succesfully fend off four, something is wrong; that's where cooldowns come in. As far as extending the conflict duration goes, that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. There are powers that slow the game down much more than any other power can speed it up (Bastille, M Prime, etc.), which will be practically eliminated by the cooldown system. This means a portion of all fights lasts shorter, which may very well compensate for the ones that last longer.

 

Also, powers are absolutely not required to set up gun kills. In the Europa Conclaves, where parkour is more important and thus more widely used, energy is hard to come by (right now it is, anyway, because Rage is broken). This does not mean people cannot be killed with guns, though. I have killed and I have been killed by people using guns often in there, without any powers being involved. In DS conflicts, the parkour thing is less important than in the Conclaves, so it is even less of an issue there.

 

As far as leveling, acquiring fleeting expertise and collecting energy orbs go, they might sound like obstacles when it comes to dominating the other team with powers, but they don't do the job. If they did, powers would not have been a problem, like they are now (Blade Storm, Vauban's arsenal, etc.).

 

Using or spamming absorb as it is now would be extremely difficult without efficiency being as high as it is

 

The same goes for before the recent change

 

Without efficiency it wouldnt have been possible to keep it up for ages on end

 

Cooldowns slow the game down in a very bad way

 

This is coming from a player who mains valkyr pure melee and rarely touches any powers in game aside from warcry

 

Cooldowns probably wouldn't slow down the game in such a bad way; I see them as an alternative to a power efficiency nerf - a likely more effective alternative, because there are no anti-cooldown mods (and there never should be). You can still shoot, use melee weapons and run around/parkour while your powers are on cooldown. Also, you do not need to use your powers all the time. You said you rarely touch any powers other than war cry, so you know that.

Edited by Cythphn
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as much as I think that cooldowns would bring some balance, I also think it would make it to close to too many other RPGs and just ruin the game.  A better way to do this is to have ways of leveling the playing field such as:

 

1) PVP Exclusive mods - a way to not allow certain mods in PVP.  Even if it's not allowing any mod accept the damaged mods that you start out with in the new prologue or not allowing a mod above a certain rank.  It could also allow the use of mods we often don't use such as mods that improve knockback resistance/recovery to deal with those Duel Ichor/Zoren spammers or shield recovery mods, or maybe the change of mod of enemy sense that allows you to see cloaked enemies to deal with every A-hole Loki or Ash.

 

2) Disruptor/Dispeller turrets - or ways to sap energy quicker or better than just sticking magnetic damage on weapons.  perhaps, in the corrupted mobs, either side can contain a magnetic or energy leaching Eximus or two (lets see how much Loki is the master race when they can't use their abilities or their guns).  or there could be a defense on the rail that resorts all players to resort to using their melee weapon.  the problem is that we face enemies with both over-powered weapons and abilities.  If we could disable at least one of them that would be good.

 

3) Counteractions to exploits - mainly the infinite stun-lock spammers.  if there was some way to counter there attack other than having your melee weapon equipped.  Perhaps holding 'F' to equip your melee when the stun-locking is happening could activate an animation that counters these people with a stagger (or knockdown depenting on weapon type) that allows you to get some hits in and possibly a finishing move.

 

Personally, I believe that PVP should have stayed in conclaves and dueling rooms at the dojo, between friends and trusted people, so they can organize what ever kind of battle they like (melee-only, OP slaughterfest, etc.), not include every dishonorable A-hole that uses every exploit and forces DE to nerf the crap out of everything.  The old school conflicts didn't need PVP; it needed different defense options, new tile sets and the option to mark players and assign members of the clan to play the role of the stalker and invade the game of the players that did the killing blow to the reactor or was crucial in bringing the rail down in what ever objective they had.  Another thing that would be cool is different mission types for conflicts, more than just sabotage or mobile defense.

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I think cooldowns are a possible solution, but I am for changing damage to warframes as a % of current health first and foremost. 

 

That would apply a law of diminishing returns to causing damage to other warframes by powers, and would make sure no human opponent would fall without direct engagement.

 

Damage to AI should keep the PvE mechanics. 

 

1v4 shouldn't be possible. The game should make matches with equal numbers on both sides. 

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-snip-

 

Try to stay on topic, please; after stating that 'cooldowns will simply ruin the game', you're just making suggestions that have little to do with the cooldown system. This is not a general PvP disucssion thread.

 

 

I think cooldowns are a possible solution, but I am for changing damage to warframes as a % of current health first and foremost. 

 

That would apply a law of diminishing returns to causing damage to other warframes by powers, and would make sure no human opponent would fall without direct engagement.

 

Damage to AI should keep the PvE mechanics. 

 

1v4 shouldn't be possible. The game should make matches with equal numbers on both sides. 

 

Aside from the suggestion not really being all that relevant in a cooldown thread, I think it is a bad idea. If damage to frames becomes percentage-based, then Vitality and Redirection are rendered completely pointless.

Edited by Cythphn
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Cooldowns probably wouldn't slow down the game in such a bad way; I see them as an alternative to a power efficiency nerf - a likely more effective alternative, because there are no anti-cooldown mods (and there never should be). You can still shoot, use melee weapons and run around/parkour while your powers are on cooldown. Also, you do not need to use your powers all the time. You said you rarely touch any powers other than war cry, so you know that.

Not much use in efficiency when all of your powers take enough time to cool down that you can just regain you energy VIA drops

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I'll take it over this abilities spamming that we have now!

 

But some things I am curious about. Would we still need energy to cast? I think it would be a waste of energy when abilities are on CD and you have enough energy to cast them, but you can't, then someone kills you and you lose all that energy.

 

And why would Ash's ultimate have such a long cooldown? I know it's ridiculously good, but giving it a CD at least 2x longer than all the other ultimates makes Ash a sitting duck when others can cast their ults. It's like Ash can kill other people 1 time, but they can kill him 2 times. Not fair IMO. Lame abilities like Hysteria and Bastille would need to have a CD around as long as Blade Storm. I don't think your values aren balanced enough. Cooldowns would be a good start to fix this mess, though.

 

Another way to fix this is just to remove efficiency and change the map up a little bit so that spawn-trapping wouldn't be possible.

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Not much use in efficiency when all of your powers take enough time to cool down that you can just regain you energy VIA drops

 

Efficiency and cooldowns won't work well together, no. Which is why I stated that the cooldown system is an alternative to a nerf to power efficiency.

 

I'll take it over this abilities spamming that we have now!

 

But some things I am curious about. Would we still need energy to cast? I think it would be a waste of energy when abilities are on CD and you have enough energy to cast them, but you can't, then someone kills you and you lose all that energy.

 

And why would Ash's ultimate have such a long cooldown? I know it's ridiculously good, but giving it a CD at least 2x longer than all the other ultimates makes Ash a sitting duck when others can cast their ults. It's like Ash can kill other people 1 time, but they can kill him 2 times. Not fair IMO. Lame abilities like Hysteria and Bastille would need to have a CD around as long as Blade Storm. I don't think your values aren balanced enough. Cooldowns would be a good start to fix this mess, though.

 

Another way to fix this is just to remove efficiency and change the map up a little bit so that spawn-trapping wouldn't be possible.

 

I don't think the energy collecting aspect should be removed completely if cooldowns are put into the game, but a lower energy cost for all powers is probably a good idea, because getting killed while you just spent half a minute collecting 75 energy is no fun.

 

The suggested cooldown for Ash's Blade Storm is so long, because in my experience, Blade Storm is a much greater problem than Hysteria and Bastille; if only because it is completely unavoidable and is very commonly used. A slight reduction in cooldown time might be fair after the latest change, though - maybe to 180, like Molecular Prime and Bastille?

 

Removing efficiency, by the way, won't have as much of an impact as cooldowns will.

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It's thread about changing the mechanics of PvP by adding cooldowns. I am saying that I don't think they are necessary, other changes can be more beneficial IMO. It's on-topic. The change to % makes them less spam-worthy, which is what cooldown aims to achieve.

 

Cooldowns have not been used in Warframe historically. Given the game's fast pace, and that the powers are what differentiates it from other games, putting another hurdle to using powers may make it blander/more generic, because you are diluting one thing which makes it special. I don't think that abilities should have access blocked, they need to be balanced so that they are not insta-kill (press 4 to win).

 

BTW I don't see how changing the damage inflicted by ultimate Warframe powers to % of current health on PvP would make Redirection/Vitality useless. They give you a larger pool, so you are still better buffered to take hits and be able to strike back. 

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