Poll: Lex Prime Vs. Marelok

[Arabaxus]

http://strawpoll.me/2579031

 

I've made a through discussion on this before with a bunch of numbers and stuff, but this question is plain and simple. Answer the poll please and discuss.

 

And before you ask, I am not in favor of dividing the community with more nerfs so nerfing Marelok is not an option in the poll. If anything, this buff would be complimented with a Grinlok damage and reload speed buff.

 

The long story short version is, even with either a raw damage or a critical based build (which the latter should theoretically favor the Lex Prime), the Marelok still far outperforms the Lex Prime in all damage types. If you don't believe me, run the numbers yourself.

 

 

Perhaps Lex prime should receive a buff, but one has not question how it would affect a possible aklex prime in the future, 

 

 

Or I could be talking nonsense >.>

 

Assume AKLex Prime wouldn't be a thing. Compare and consider Single Lex Prime and Marelok.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Arabaxus

[Somedude1000]

Perhaps Lex prime should receive a buff, but one has not question how it would affect a possible aklex prime in the future, 

 

 

Or I could be talking nonsense >.>

 

Assume AKLex Prime wouldn't be a thing. Compare and consider Single Lex Prime and Marelok.

 

 

Well, Lex P could be buffed, but keep in mind it cant be so OP that t makes the normal Lex not even a remote option

 

Critical is the way to go perhaps 

Edited September 16, 2014 by Somedude1000

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Moved to a more appropriate section.

[Deidaku]

MArelok wins
 

Even non potatoed it's very strong :O

[taiiat]

none of those options are the full story.

 

 

LexP could use some minor Tweaks, increasing the Crit Chance seems like a reasonable tweak to make. just increasing it slightly. other than that it's a very balanced Weapon.

LexP isn't really underpowered, but that slight tweak to increase reliability would be nice.

 

and to avoid reducing Marelok's Damage - though honestly it really should be lowered to be closer to the other Semi-Auto Pistols in the game - giving it sketchy Accuracy so that it's fine at Close Range, a little bit iffy at Medium Range, and Long Range like trying to roll a 20 and Crit that dragon so that your Dungeonmaster doesn't get a laugh at how hard he owned you.

would still be flexible in most situations then.

 

though honestly, i still think it's simpler to cut 35-40 Damage off of the Weapon. it'll still be at the top of the Archetype for Damage despite losing that much. because it has so much to start with.

there. an objective attempt at legitimate balance.

 

which is what Warframe needs, not turning one bolt to dismiss the discussion(s).

[Arabaxus]

there. an objective attempt at legitimate balance.

 

which is what Warframe needs, not turning one bolt to dismiss the discussion(s).

 

 

And before you ask, I am not in favor of dividing the community with more nerfs so nerfing Marelok is not an option in the poll. If anything, this buff would be complimented with a Grinlok damage and reload speed buff.

 

I've personally been in favor of player enjoyment and experience over perfect balance. That is why nerfing Marelok is not an option to the poll.

[Quizel]

nvm need sleep

Edited September 16, 2014 by Quizel

[taiiat]

I've personally been in favor of player enjoyment and experience over perfect balance.

perfect balance? more like any balance.

 

if LexP is 'as powerful' as Marelok, then we instead just have two Pistols that are in the wrong place, instead of one.

 

 

player enjoyment is in knowing that their choice is viable compared to any other choice. 

player enjoyment doesn't come from having stats wildly above every other choice.

 

 

make no mistake, Marelok is an outlier. it has the highest Damage of any Sidearm or Rifle in the game that isn't classified as a Sniper Rifle or Launcher.

 

Edit:

or a Bow. but that's basically a different flavor of Sniper Rifle.

Edited September 16, 2014 by taiiat

[Arabaxus]

Well, crit build on Lex Prime is justified enough by base stats which opens up head shot potential. Along with greater accuracy allowing for fewer missed shots beyond like 20m, it's a competitor. Against a lvl 40 Corrupted Heavy Gunner with no one rocking corrosive projection, Head shot sustained DpS of LP is 2% higher >.>. 

 

Marelok overall I'd agree is on top but in any comparison one is going to be on top unless it's the exact same weapon...

 

The underlying issue is whereas weapons are better than each other dependent on armor and flesh type, much like elements, encourages the use of multiple weapons and element combinations, Marelok is simply stronger against all types, even types where puncture based Lex Prime ought to have an edge.

 

I could fully argue that based on the rarity principle, Lex Prime being leagues rarer than a clan-tech Marelok, Lex Prime should be on top almost 100% of the time, but that's not what I'm going for. Even for something like Paris Prime and Dread, Of 12 armor and flesh types, Dread has better DPS on 10 of them, but that still leaves 2 where Paris Prime stands out and thus is worth using over Dread, as both are rare weapons. The difference also is not that great either, something like 10-15% I would estimate. 

 

Meanwhile Marelok stands stronger than 15% in most, if not all damage types, is simply stronger in all damage types, and is less rare than Lex Prime.

[vaugahn]

And before you ask, I am not in favor of dividing the community with more nerfs so nerfing Marelok is not an option in the poll. If anything, this buff would be complimented with a Grinlok damage and reload speed buff.

 

I think as a community we should try to move past our paralyzing fear of nerfs. In fact, I'd personally like it if the word didn't have such a negative connotation. That's neither here nor there though.

 

Anyways, I think the Lex Prime needs a slight buff to accuracy and a bigger buff to damage, and the Marelok needs an accuracy reduction or a damage reduction.. That's really the only sensible choice here.

[Arabaxus]

perfect balance? more like any balance.

 

if LexP is 'as powerful' as Marelok, then we instead just have two Pistols that are in the wrong place, instead of one.

 

 

player enjoyment is in knowing that their choice is viable compared to any other choice. 

player enjoyment doesn't come from having stats wildly above every other choice.

 

 

make no mistake, Marelok is an outlier. it has the highest Damage of any Sidearm or Rifle in the game that isn't classified as a Sniper Rifle or Launcher.

 

If you want to compare damage output, Marelok is not the greatest. AKVastos can outDPS Marelok by almost 10%, AKBolto can outdamage Marelok by a sheer 20%+. If you want to compare damage per bullet, Sniper Rifles, Bows, Launchers as you mentioned trumps them, but they are also primary weapons, which are not of discussion. Sniper pistols have every right to be the highest damaging sidearms (per shot), which is clearly balanced just fine if you consider the shoddy rate of fire that leads to its DPS to be outclassed by high fire rate items, and justifiably so.

 

As the "best" sniper pistol, Marelok is in the perfect position. Greater ammunition economy and accuracy, alongside status chance per shot, much like bows and automatic rifles, comes at the cost of slightly lower DPS and greater punishment per missed shot. 

 

The issue is that Lex Prime is in every right deserving to be also on par as one of the "best". Other than obvious player experience, if you nerf Marelok, you simply place precision sidearms into a position of obscurity as the rapid-fire ones are. If you are in favor of reducing precision sidearms into obscurity, you would also have to reduce the damage output on things such as AKVasto and AKBolto, and then reduce secondaries to be actual secondaries in which primaries will always outclass them, which I don't believe would be a popular choice.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Anyways, I think the Lex Prime needs a slight buff to accuracy and a bigger buff to damage, and the Marelok needs an accuracy reduction or a damage reduction.. That's really the only sensible choice here.

I'd go with a damage buff on Lex, and a firerate decrease on Marelok. That way they can compete, yet they'll allow for that niche factor.

[taiiat]

As the "best" sniper pistol, Marelok is in the perfect position. Greater ammunition economy and accuracy, alongside status chance per shot, much like bows and automatic rifles, comes at the cost of slightly lower DPS and greater punishment per missed shot. 

but that's just it. Marelok is the best Semi-Auto Sidearm period - and it has no downsides.

 

it's better than the others in every way. the lower Magazine size doesn't affect much, as it's Reload is near instant.

 

oh, also let's clear up just how effective Marelok is.

 

note that Crits aren't being factored there, which adds a bit shy of a couple thousand Sustained.

Edited September 16, 2014 by taiiat

[marelooke]

I've made a through discussion on this before with a bunch of numbers and stuff,

 

How about a link to said discussion? I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who'd like to see the numbers, and compare them to other weapons in the same category (is the Marelok even in the same category as the Lex) , like the Seer.

Edited September 16, 2014 by marelooke

[Quizel]

(I do think marelok is stronger but...)

 

If you miss your target, I don't care how much more dps it's capable of. LexPrime seems to be incredibly accurate when using the aim/zoom right click.

http://youtu.be/CjzRhBSOusw

 

The spread of marelok is unsettling for the distance tested.

http://youtu.be/AguqJ_PHjU8

 

Final video showing LexPrimes Spread when not using scope.

http://youtu.be/E7rQC2-fS3g

 

And Marelok no scope (scope doesnt' seem to improve or worsen the spread for Marelok)

http://youtu.be/8B6Zt8H688Q

 

Note: I realize these aren't the greatest test (was also listening to convert the raid in the background >.>) but hopefully it shows the argument-> Marelok may hit hard but becomes inferior the greater the distance while LP keeps a tight spread even at 30m.

 

 

It's hard to justify accuracy in terms of a weapons power level, but it seems to be often over looked too much.  If we consider LexPrime capable of a cirt/head shot build at a distance while marelok is undependable going for head shots, LP quickly becomes the better of the two.

 

Build used for Marelok is taiiat's with no head shots selected (the sustained dps including crits is shown w/o procs above the graph for comparison to wf builder).

 

LP build is the usual HS, BD, LT plus the 2 common pistol crit mods, 180% corrosive, and lastly another 60% mod added to corrosive from an event mod (using a bane mod would have been stronger but I don't feel like taking another pic >.>). Only head shots considered for LP estimate.

 

Armor/enemy type not specified.

 

I also realize there's a fair amount of recoil using LP which would effect in game effective rate of fire going for head shots. In addition to requiring more aiming, LP and Marelok's in game dps considering all of the above really starts to get fairly close.  I'd rate Marelok better just because of its ease of use. 

Edited September 16, 2014 by Quizel

[Archistopheles]

Fight the creep, equip the Seer.

[BrazilianJoe]

Marelok needs an accuracy nerf. Lex Prime needs crit chance/damage buff.

[Quizel]

Marelok needs an accuracy nerf. Lex Prime needs crit chance/damage buff.

Well, tbh, if the crit dmg pistol mods were buffed to be inline like a riffles, the weapon itself is plenty strong critwise.   Crit builds across the board for pistols is kinda depressing >.>.

 

I wouldn't be apposed to a slight crit buff to lexprime (25% crit chance base) along with a few notches less of accuracy on the marelok (certainly no less than 7 - accuracy of 8.5 would suffice in my book-we dont' want to break it).

Edited September 16, 2014 by Quizel

[Arunafeltz]

Looking at Lex and Aklex, Aklex Prime will likely outclass the Lex Prime, and probably have that critical chance boost that will tip the critical odds in its favour to make it truly effective. Personally, I'm not that concerned about how Lex Prime stands alongside the Marelok because it is true that the latter has a higher mastery rank requirement, which is apparently supposed to be relevant to a weapon's power in some way. All I ask for is a critical chance buff. Anything to weigh the coin flip towards a critical hit, to make the headshots more likely to hurt, for a playstyle that can fully use the weapon based on its strengths.