Cryotic Front Was A Step In The Right Direction, But This...

[Brynslustafir]

Are they though? The people who universally dislike every change and go around calling people lemmings are just as common.

It doesn't seem like it from what I've seen. I think it might just be a vocal minority. 

[FREQ1989]

All the negativity in this thread from people saying the opposite of the OP is what makes me sick of the players in this community. There are great valid points here, and people just say that OP is butthurt, when really it is the people who say that who are truly butthurt. If you don't like what somebody is saying, then don't say anything. Let people have healthy discussions about it, rather than having to deal with morons flaming the thread because they are just flat out inferior players. Yeah, I said it. If you have a problem, then keep it to yourself, because flaming the thread benefits literally nobody.

 

With that out of the way, I totally 100% agree with OP. Cryotic was the most fun i have had since the first week of playing this grind fest of a game. It presented real challenge and real difficulty simply by playing the damn objective. None of this gimping yourself crap, just playing and going through gave the challenge. There was no grind to be had either. I mean only for the rewards but that's whatever. Gate Crash is flat out terrible. The idea for the mission was kind of cool, but the fact you have to do it 15 times, all the while you become weaker and weaker, while the opposite happens to your enemies was a bad idea. The rewards weren't great either. The mods are bad seeing as they are very situational to the weapon. The new weapon is even worse, and I won't waste words on it.

 

The main thing is this, we NEED the difficulty slider in the next update. There are no exceptions. This will keep the bads happy, with their Boltor Primes, and the Vets happy to play harder more challenging content.

[izzatuw]

The OP does give valid points but my issue here is not if it's hard or not. It's if it was repetitive or not, which this event was, really repetitive with meh rewards. Of course I want to get the rewards and what not but 15 runs is nothing but repetitive.

[Rapxtor]

Erm. In case you don't know you get gimped more the further you go (in DEL own words you become 'completely impotent' at some point), but you just join pubs on Phobos where other people are not gimped much. Everyone who goes for high score (over 15) for clan leaderboards gets carried by pubs with low score! This is worse than grind. This is repeated AFKing in random pubs.  This event system is backwards and messed up.

 

Endless missions with escalating difficulty - like the one used for Cryotic - required team effort with coordinated CC+Support+DD to get a high score. The difficulty was building up for the entire team.

 

Making the difficulty change for each player individually in a coop mission is a design mistake. 

 

Are you sure about that?  Im asking bc the only place i can get exposure points after the 15, is in endurance at phobos, if i join a Pug on lower planets, i get the reward caches but no exposure point since i already completed the planet (in the end i have the same points that i had at start).

[Vance.Stubbs]

You mean the exact same thing people on both sides do? For every person who blindly defends something there's another blindly attacking. Which, coincidentally, is also not respecting the purpose and rules of the feedback forum. 

 

There is a diffirence between a constructive negative feedback and a generic troll "x is new and it sucks" threads. The problem is that both these topics are threated same by the fanboys.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Vance.Stubbs

[Arabaxus]

All the negativity in this thread from people saying the opposite of the OP is what makes me sick of the players in this community. There are great valid points here, and people just say that OP is butthurt, when really it is the people who say that who are truly butthurt. If you don't like what somebody is saying, then don't say anything. Let people have healthy discussions about it, rather than having to deal with morons flaming the thread because they are just flat out inferior players. Yeah, I said it. If you have a problem, then keep it to yourself, because flaming the thread benefits literally nobody.

 

With that out of the way, I totally 100% agree with OP. Cryotic was the most fun i have had since the first week of playing this grind fest of a game. It presented real challenge and real difficulty simply by playing the damn objective. None of this gimping yourself crap, just playing and going through gave the challenge. There was no grind to be had either. I mean only for the rewards but that's whatever. Gate Crash is flat out terrible. The idea for the mission was kind of cool, but the fact you have to do it 15 times, all the while you become weaker and weaker, while the opposite happens to your enemies was a bad idea. The rewards weren't great either. The mods are bad seeing as they are very situational to the weapon. The new weapon is even worse, and I won't waste words on it.

 

The main thing is this, we NEED the difficulty slider in the next update. There are no exceptions. This will keep the bads happy, with their Boltor Primes, and the Vets happy to play harder more challenging content.

 

I agree with OP that the repetitiveness of the event was bad, and he makes some good points, but the fact he brings up Cryotic Front as a good example of what an event should be, when it was fundamentally the same as this in a more primitive form in terms of providing a challenge vs. artificial difficulty is plain hypocrisy.

[Monolake]

Are you sure about that?  Im asking bc the only place i can get exposure points after the 15, is in endurance at phobos, if i join a Pug on lower planets, i get the reward caches but no exposure point since i already completed the planet (in the end i have the same points that i had at start).

Yes only on Phobos 'endurance'. You either get carried by pubs with lower score or by a dedicated carry who dies or quits at the end to not get a higher debuff. Repeat 100 times, no rinse.

 

I agree with OP that the repetitiveness of the event was bad, and he makes some good points, but the fact he brings up Cryotic Front as a good example of what an event should be, when it was fundamentally the same as this in a more primitive form in terms of providing a challenge vs. artificial difficulty is plain hypocrisy.

"Artificial difficulty" gets thrown around too much with no understanding that it means something that cant be beat with skill, where it doesn't depend on players actions or conscious decisions (ie something you cant possibly know like a deathtrap with no warning or time to react) . Cryotic was about knowledge, skill and teamplay and everything there was beatable if you know the game and have coordinated team. This event you cant do anything - you get debuffed to do no damage and abilities become almost completely useless.. 

Edited September 21, 2014 by Monolake

[Brynslustafir]

I agree with OP that the repetitiveness of the event was bad, and he makes some good points, but the fact he brings up Cryotic Front as a good example of what an event should be, when it was fundamentally the same as this in a more primitive form in terms of providing a challenge vs. artificial difficulty is plain hypocrisy.

I brought up Cryotic because it was fun. Gate crash just loses all of its appeal after 3 runs. At least Cryotic had a nice looking tileset, a new and interesting game mode, and didn't require painful repetition like gate crash does. 

Edited September 21, 2014 by Plasmaface

[Rapxtor]

I agree with OP that the repetitiveness of the event was bad, and he makes some good points, but the fact he brings up Cryotic Front as a good example of what an event should be, when it was fundamentally the same as this in a more primitive form in terms of providing a challenge vs. artificial difficulty is plain hypocrisy.

 

Artificial dificulty or fake dificulty is a term to describe games that have enemies that are too powerful to be killed even through intelligent gameplay and the player must resort to cheap tactics and exploits because the enemy cannot be killed in a straight up fight due their health and damage surpassing the player's.

 

The difference between artificial dificulty and real dificulty is that real dificulty can be overcome through intelligent gameplay such as planning out how you will attack a group so you will not take any damage, being patient, and being cautious. Real dificulty is achieved through enemies that have intelligent abilities that the player must learn and learn to avoid while artificial dificulty is achieved simply by raising the enemies' damage and health or cap the player power/defenses.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Rapxtor

[Vastaren]

- snip -

+1 for a very comprehensive definition - do you mind if I borrow this? Sorry for going off-topic, but I've already said what I needed to say.

[MirageKnight]

Rapxtor, you've underscored what's fundamentally wrong with Warframe these days: The pervasive use of artificial difficulty to provide a "challenge" to players with high level gear. I'm not interested in enemies becoming spongier - I want to then to be more accurate, be more aware of surroundings, use better tactics and more interesting uses of weapons as I progress through the solar system. I want to see enemies use more than one weapon, depending on the situation. If I find myself in melee combat with a Grineer Lancer or a Trooper for instance, I'd like to see him pull out a knife once in a while. I also want to see enemies use more of the exotic, faction specific weapons that we wind up using against them.

 

The two "sisters" in the latest event were an interesting fight, notably as they required a bit of teamwork, tactics and ability usage to take down. For me though, they didn't feel like too much of a threat - particularly Ven'kra Tel. I think if she was equipped with the Buzlok as opposed to that Vulkar, she'd have made for a far more interesting and dangerous opponent.

[Brynslustafir]

 artificial dificulty is achieved simply by raising the enemies' damage and health or cap the player power/defenses.

And there you go. 

That's exactly what this event does. 

[TheThreadWeaver]

OP, While I understand your concerns and respect your right to voice them, I feel that the tone you took in voicing those concerns works against you tremendously. The reason most of the people in this thread are labeling you as "butthurt" without reading or thinking about your points is for this reason. Your post reads like a rant, and therefore people are responding to it as a rant.

 

I would also like to offer rebuttal to the inference in your post that no new mechanics were introduced in this event. I enjoyed what I saw as a new mission type with a lot of potential for expansion and variation. I liked fighting the two new enemies, with their emphasis on mobility and interplaying combat roles, which could also be expanded upon. I also enjoyed the presence of the Orokin caches, which to me are a way to finally legitimize the exploration that I am so fond of. To me, these are "new mechanics" in the game that I am very happy to see, and hope to see built upon. To sum up, I think that your inference that there was nothing new in this event is incorrect, and it might behoove you to make some sort of correction in that regard.

[Lost_Cartographer]

Rapxtor, you've underscored what's fundamentally wrong with Warframe these days: The pervasive use of artificial difficulty to provide a "challenge" to players with high level gear. I'm not interested in enemies becoming spongier - I want to then to be more accurate, be more aware of surroundings, use better tactics and more interesting uses of weapons as I progress through the solar system. I want to see enemies use more than one weapon, depending on the situation. If I find myself in melee combat with a Grineer Lancer or a Trooper for instance, I'd like to see him pull out a knife once in a while. I also want to see enemies use more of the exotic, faction specific weapons that we wind up using against them.

 

The two "sisters" in the latest event were an interesting fight, notably as they required a bit of teamwork, tactics and ability usage to take down. For me though, they didn't feel like too much of a threat - particularly Ven'kra Tel. I think if she was equipped with the Buzlok as opposed to that Vulkar, she'd have made for a far more interesting and dangerous opponent.

 

The problem here is that better tactics and better utilization of abilities would be completely useless without the enemy being somewhat like damage sponges.  Worse still, the tools themselves need to destroy Tenno relatively quickly or like knockdown, it's just an annoyance if they can't break the shield, though likewise, if it means certain death, then it's frustrating.  They need to LIVE long enough to use these tools, and they need to be effective.  Artificial difficulty might be just raising HP and damage bars, but artificial difficulty is always necessary before mechanical difficulty.

 

What I saw from the OP was complaints about things actually being made harder on him - he couldn't rely on his powers to clear rooms or to save his &#!, and his health and shielding were shot, so he had a short TTK, probably like his enemies if his weapon wasn't a poorly modded piece of crap.  The fact that we die faster towards the end of this event and people are whining about it means the difficulty, however artificial, is working to change the way we play.  That's a mission success.  We actually have to use cover and make sure nothing is flanking us, who'd have thought?  Just like the secret shipments event, only that one didn't render the OP 4 skills as powerful of a pen light.

[Arabaxus]

And there you go. 

That's exactly what this event does. 

 

All Cryotic did was increase the damage dealt without increasing enemies health. So I still do not see the difference, because even based on:

 

Artificial dificulty or fake dificulty is a term to describe games that have enemies that are too powerful to be killed even through intelligent gameplay and the player must resort to cheap tactics and exploits because the enemy cannot be killed in a straight up fight due their health and damage surpassing the player's.

 

The difference between artificial dificulty and real dificulty is that real dificulty can be overcome through intelligent gameplay such as planning out how you will attack a group so you will not take any damage, being patient, and being cautious. Real dificulty is achieved through enemies that have intelligent abilities that the player must learn and learn to avoid while artificial dificulty is achieved simply by raising the enemies' damage and health or cap the player power/defenses.

 

Cryotic is still artificial difficulty that did not scale. It involved repeating the same mission except it did not get any harder on consecutive games, alongside you could still use abilities without the reduction in duration/range/power to make it more difficult without completely removing it. 

 

Again, I agree with your argument, but your evidence provides exactly the opposite of what needs to be shown in a good example. The boss fights were a good example, for instance. They were actually hard to hit and required active aiming to hit a specific weak spot, but did not have periods of complete invulnerability, whereas bosses like Sargus Ruk and Lephantis do.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Arabaxus

[taiiat]

i'd agree, in retrospect. 

 

the first 10 times or so, the Mission was interesting, my Powers getting a little less effective, it was interesting.

 

by the time you got to around 15 pts though, your Powers were completely useless.

basically, Warframe turned into a generic shooter. you have Guns, you spend most of your time watching someone hoof it to the destination.

 

mixed up by a little bit of flip jumps and whatnot, but still, the game starts to lose it's spark when you remove one of it's core facets.

 

 

 

being able to goof around with Powers is neat, making them ultra nerfed to get a laugh, but for actual gameplay, like i said, the spark starts to dim when you remove one of the core legs of the game.

 

 

Edit:

the Bosses in Gate Crash, were a little different. they weren't as drab to fight as some others, but i think there might have been some hitbox issues, sometimes i found it quite difficult to actually hit their Jetpacks, i'd shoot them and most of my shots wouldn't do anything, and then a single shot would hit and kill them.

 

but mechanically, and thematically, the Bosses were a bit different, and that was nice.

 

 

 

oh, and Cryotic Front had it's issues with repetition as well, but repetition is to be expected. however, Cryotic Front was a lot more interesting to repeat than Gate Crash is.

there was exploration to do, and also reasons to kill Enemies and the Enemies were tied to the Objectives as well.

Objectives in many locations to boot!

 

my #1 complaint would be that the Scanner was only in one location and if you had an Extractor on the other end of the map... it was a long walk back to it. i would have had more than one of them on the map.

Edited September 21, 2014 by taiiat

[Rapxtor]

+1 for a very comprehensive definition - do you mind if I borrow this? Sorry for going off-topic, but I've already said what I needed to say.

 

Sure i have no problem with that if help somehow.

 

All Cryotic did was increase the damage dealt without increasing enemies health. So I still do not see the difference, because even based on:

 

 

Cryotic is still artificial difficulty that did not scale. It involved repeating the same mission except it did not get any harder on consecutive games, alongside you could still use abilities without the reduction in duration/range/power to make it more difficult without completely removing it. 

 

Again, I agree with your argument, but your evidence provides exactly the opposite of what needs to be shown in a good example. The boss fights were a good example, for instance. They were actually hard to hit and required active aiming to hit a specific weak spot, but did not have periods of complete invulnerability, whereas bosses like Sargus Ruk and Lephantis do.

 

Actually i never said they were diferent in terms of dificulty, here you are capped from your power, in Cryotic is exacly the opposite since the further you go, more damage the enemy do but you keep all at your disposal (ability/damage), but with a little diference, in cryotic like some already stated with good teamwork you could stay longer and even being repetitive gameplay, was actually fun to see how much you could stand with your friends against enemys that after 30m hit like truck.

 

Another thing is, I understand the OP but i did enjoy the event even playing the same map, since sometimes i also cap myself to spice things up, but he actually have some valid points and if you ask me what i prefer, sure that i wanted to have a very smart AI that could adapt to my gameplay each game i make, but that`s not what we have right now, and maybe never will i dont know, the only thing we can do is try enjoy the best way possible and hope for some AI tweaks from DE.

[Brynslustafir]

All Cryotic did was increase the damage dealt without increasing enemies health. So I still do not see the difference, because even based on:

 

 

Cryotic is still artificial difficulty that did not scale. It involved repeating the same mission except it did not get any harder on consecutive games, alongside you could still use abilities without the reduction in duration/range/power to make it more difficult without completely removing it. 

 

Again, I agree with your argument, but your evidence provides exactly the opposite of what needs to be shown in a good example. The boss fights were a good example, for instance. They were actually hard to hit and required active aiming to hit a specific weak spot, but did not have periods of complete invulnerability, whereas bosses like Sargus Ruk and Lephantis do.

The difference is that Cryotic front relied primarily on tactics to add challenge. The enemy damage buffs were insignificant by comparison. Gate crash just uses the same stupid buff/debuff formula that I've learned to hate, but takes it to a whole new level. Nerfing players and buffing enemies is a lazy way to add difficulty. Forcing players to adapt their playstyles to deal with a new threat is how you keep things interesting. Just buffing enemies and nerfing players to oblivion is NOT the same as introducing a new threat or condition that changes how the game is played. 

 

They are not the same, and anyone who thinks they are has failed to understand one of the most important concepts of game design. Difficulty balance. 

 

I can't lay it out any more clearly than that. 

Edited September 22, 2014 by Plasmaface

[vaugahn]

The difference is that Cryotic front relied primarily on tactics to add challenge. The enemy damage buffs were insignificant by comparison. Gate crash just uses the same stupid buff/debuff formula that I've learned to hate, but takes it to a whole new level. Nerfing players and buffing enemies is a lazy way to add difficulty. Forcing players to adapt their playstyles to deal with a new threat is how you keep things interesting. Just buffing enemies and nerfing players to oblivion is NOT the same as introducing a new threat or condition that changes how the game is played. 

 

They are not the same, and anyone who thinks they are has failed to understand one of the most important concepts of game design. Difficulty balance. 

 

I can't lay it out any more clearly than that. 

 

Not to say that this event was better than Cryotic, but I think the reason why Cryotic was better is simply because the gamemode was more compelling. There were no tactics added for the challenge, they just sent stronger and stronger enemies at you forever until you couldn't stay any longer. 

[Brynslustafir]

Not to say that this event was better than Cryotic, but I think the reason why Cryotic was better is simply because the gamemode was more compelling. There were no tactics added for the challenge, they just sent stronger and stronger enemies at you forever until you couldn't stay any longer. 

I disagree, the entire game mode felt more tactical than anything in gate crash. 

Edited September 22, 2014 by Plasmaface

[vaugahn]

I disagree, the entire game mode felt more tactical and more fun than anything in gate crash. 

 

Again, that's because the game mode itself was more compelling. A randomly generated multiple-objective defense is naturally going to be much more interesting than "go here, wait, go back". Not to say that's inherently bad (it's better than current sabotage missions), it's just not as interesting.

 

Both are guilty of "artificial difficulty" though, at least under the definition provided here. Which also isn't necessarily a bad thing, so long as it's done well. It was done well in Cryotic, not so much here.

[Rapxtor]

I think Vaugahn is right, definetly more compelling and in line with Survival or Defense that are very good modes, this one with some tweaks could be very interesting too at its own way.

[Dolomighty]

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP's sentiment, to be completely honest this event is just dreadful. I understand the idea behind making your frame weaker, but eventually your frame becomes nothing more than a cosmetic change since most abilities become utterly worthless. It's even worse when you're doing endurance runs, because after a point even your most powerful guns cause literally zero damage. That's the very definition of artificial difficulty, a hard wall that no amount of effort or skill can bypass

 

On the individual side you have to run essentially the same exact mission 15 times in order to get the rewards (which amount to a neat looking badge, some really really unimaginative mods, and a weak dagger that swings as if it weighed a metric ton). And on the competitive side it's an event that heavily favors raw headcount over strategy or skill. I really hope DE takes this criticism to heart and makes an honest effort to never introduce an event like this again, because they've proven before that they can make a damn good event.

 

tl;dr Cryotic Front good, Gate Crash very very bad.