Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Cryotic Front Was A Step In The Right Direction, But This...


Brynslustafir
 Share

Recommended Posts

While I haven't labelled it as such, surely you can see that having powers and stats reduced by a large percentage isn't everyone's idea of 'fun'.

 

Just because you don't think it's "fun" doesn't mean it's artificial. People need to learn exactly what "artificial difficulty" actually is instead of labeling everything they don't like as such.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just because you don't think it's "fun" doesn't mean it's artificial. People need to learn exactly what "artificial difficulty" actually is instead of labeling everything they don't like as such.

I haven't tried to use any such terminology, I will cynically agree with you that the general consensus is that players with an opinion will find anything and everything they can to put words to their feelings, all too often irrespective of whether it is reasonably justified or not. That's the nature of diversity. I'm just glad we're not confusing the subjective definition of 'fun' and the objective definition of 'artificial difficulty'.

 

But that's tangential to what the OP is really saying, because I think they are justified and have presented logical arguments for why they dislike the event, terminology aside. The form of challenge presented in this event is forced and isn't everyone's cup of tea, and labeling it this or that won't change it. The OP goes on to say why that's a bad thing, among other points, though in a fairly inflammatory tone (maybe rightfully so) I wouldn't have personally used. I can see where they come from, I've written pretty much a parallel, but the definition of the phrase you take offense with isn't clear in this context.

 

The question we should be answering is "How do you feel about the event, and how do you relate it to the OP?", though I get where you're coming from.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll add more: this event system basically encourages AFK playing for anyone with highscore  - you get heavily gimped, so you wont even be much of a help in a fight, while other players with 5-10 score could solo this mission. So you join and alt tab to chat, while others do all the work. You gain +1 to your score. Repeat. 

Its not a challenge.

Edited by Monolake
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't tried to use any such terminology, I will cynically agree with you that the general consensus is that players with an opinion will find anything and everything they can to put words to their feelings, all too often irrespective of whether it is reasonably justified or not. That's the nature of diversity. I'm just glad we're not confusing the subjective definition of 'fun' and the objective definition of 'artificial difficulty'.

 

But that's tangential to what the OP is really saying, because I think they are justified and have presented logical arguments for why they dislike the event, terminology aside. The form of challenge presented in this event is forced and isn't everyone's cup of tea, and labeling it this or that won't change it. The OP goes on to say why that's a bad thing, among other points, though in a fairly inflammatory tone (maybe rightfully so) I wouldn't have personally used. I can see where they come from, I've written pretty much a parallel, but the definition of the phrase you take offense with isn't clear in this context.

 

The question we should be answering is "How do you feel about the event, and how do you relate it to the OP?", though I get where you're coming from.

 

I see where you're coming from as well. It's just a little more than aggravating when people totally dismiss certain challenges DE throws at us because they don't like it. I mean, we finally get an event that forces players to fore-go (most) of their cheese builds - like Loki infinite invisibility and Valkyr's infinite hysteria and so on - and what happens? We get complaints.

 

And make note that these complaints are almost exactly like the ones from that other event where the Conclave forced players to - again - change their tactics and be challenged.

 

 

I'll add more: this event system basically encourages AFK playing for anyone with highscore  - you get heavily gimped, so you wont even be much of a help in a fight, while other players with 5-10 score could solo this mission. So you join and alt tab to chat, while others do all the work. You gain +1 to your score. Repeat. 

Its not a challenge.

 

That's like saying everything in the game currently promotes afking. We get so damn powerful it's rare that a whole entire group is really needed for anything. In fact, this event promotes team play, since the weaker your stats get, the easier you go down and the harder it is to stay alive. Having a group together means you have a chance to be revived as well. I duo'd this event with a friend, and teamwork was essential.

 

Also, pointing out people AFKing makes the whole entire event "not a challenge" doesn't make sense. It's not the event itself that's at fault here. What's ruining events like this is lazy @$$ players that would rather exploit the fact that DE hasn't instituted a kick function yet than play the game. And they probably never will, because people keep wailing about how kicking could be "abused" when in fact such abuse would be minimal at best (Just like almost every other game out there that has a kick function.) Just because it has the POTENTIAL to be abused doesn't mean it's broken. But, that's a conversation for another day.

Edited by SoulEchelon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's like saying everything in the game currently promotes afking. We get so damn powerful it's rare that a whole entire group is really needed for anything. In fact, this event promotes team play, since the weaker your stats get, the easier you go down and the harder it is to stay alive. Having a group together means you have a chance to be revived as well. I duo'd this event with a friend, and teamwork was essential.

 

Also, pointing out people AFKing makes the whole entire event "not a challenge" doesn't make sense. It's not the event itself that's at fault here. What's ruining events like this is lazy @$$ players that would rather exploit the fact that DE hasn't instituted a kick function yet than play the game. And they probably never will, because people keep wailing about how kicking could be "abused" when in fact such abuse would be minimal at best (Just like almost every other game out there that has a kick function.) Just because it has the POTENTIAL to be abused doesn't mean it's broken. But, that's a conversation for another day.

 

Erm. In case you don't know you get gimped more the further you go (in DEL own words you become 'completely impotent' at some point), but you just join pubs on Phobos where other people are not gimped much. Everyone who goes for high score (over 15) for clan leaderboards gets carried by pubs with low score! This is worse than grind. This is repeated AFKing in random pubs.  This event system is backwards and messed up.

 

Endless missions with escalating difficulty - like the one used for Cryotic - required team effort with coordinated CC+Support+DD to get a high score. The difficulty was building up for the entire team.

 

Making the difficulty change for each player individually in a coop mission is a design mistake. 

Edited by Monolake
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've noticed something.

 

Whenever DE introduced -ANY- kind of difficulty in -ANY- shape or form, people flock to the forums and scream that it's "artificial difficulty". Interesting.

 

As for the event, I'll just copy and paste what I said in another thread:

 

"I don't see what's bad about this event. While it's in essence the same "map", it gets progressively harder and harder. There's alot of challenge to it - even for those "master race" Lokis that just stack Invisibility duration since eventually your warframe gets too weak to use such tactics effectively.

 

Finally, DE made an event that couldn't be completely cheesed out by particular warframes (that I know of). That's pretty awesome in my book."

 

^^^^^

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I only found the grineer cache hunting fun because it provided another alternative to farm t4 keys instead of only interception missions. It also encouraged me to explore the map instead of just killing/rushing the main objective. I would love to see these grineer caches get implemented into the orokin derelict and void (vault and grineer/orokin cache hunting!).

 

The mission itself(portal & mini bosses) were okay. The negative effects were an interesting concept but it just got annoying after +10 exposure points in ceres.

 

/opinion

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 in a coop mission

?

 

 

well putting that aside, first of all just looking at all past events, didn't it seemed like DE was experimenting various ideas? Just like this one.

 

But mostly considering what is above, if there is a game with 100 gamemode and among these 100 there is 2-3 that use "artificial" difficulty do you really have to cry out everywhere about it?

It seems to me that you an absolute aversion to "artificial" difficulty so much that you can't tolerate its existence even though there is a number of people who are up for the challenge.

Additionnally, it's also one of the thing about diversity that it appeal to different person, there are people who do want/don't mind "artificial" difficulty, it's about the same for having different mission types, but if you look at nightmare modes you can just relativize it, there is a game mode that people just go through a numbers of time and just never play it again, while still being an -interesting- part of the game for having a different flavor.

 

 

other than that, more or less all event are repetitive... Cryotic front was repetitive, and the rewards... oh well, it's like you're expecting a miracle for every event but you're not the only one actually...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

umm... but 15 runs is like, mega easy? and the mission itself is rad? and the exposure is just for the event? so - what is actually your problem?

this reminds me of a little kid complaining about his double choc, lolly-and-candy-coated-extravoganza-icecream being just too fkn cold and throwing it on the ground

Link to comment
Share on other sites

?

 

 

I mean its coop, the difficulty should scale for everyone in the mission the same, not individually per player especially when its this debuff making you do no damage.  

Cryotic was just 3 missions and a single mission for top score. Excavation is a decent game mod with emergent elements to be replayable and fun if you play for long (similar to survivals).

This one is 15 runs just to get the default rewards ( each one - 10 min on average = 2.5 hours!). And god help anyone who tries to grind for clan scores.  The missions are exactly the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I mean its coop, the difficulty should scale for everyone in the mission the same, not individually per player especially when its this debuff making you do no damage. 

Nah I still don't understand where you're going, when I try to understand I get like you're thinking DE are forbidden to touch anything that doesn't have a coop element, but as I said I'm not sure what you mean.

 

Cryotic was just 3 missions and a single mission for top score.

yup it wasn't repetitive

Excavation is a decent game mod with emergent elements to be replayable and fun if you play for long (similar to survivals).

yup it was repetitive

Well it seems too much cynical to just put it like that. In short it's too dependant of whether you find it fun enough or not, but there are people who won't ever do excavation because they are not interested in addition to being somewhat of another survival mode (there are people who don't like survival or similar things, just to say) so for them it is just as repetitive.

 

But I do understand if you say it is more repetitive than cryotic, but cryotic was still repetitive, just like.. a lot of thing.

But don't expect every event to overcome each other.

 

This one is 15 runs just to get the default rewards ( each one - 10 min on average = 2.5 hours!). And god help anyone who tries to grind for clan scores.  The missions are exactly the same.

15 runs isn't that much of a problem, and having caches, a mini defense phase (quite bad though), progressive gimping mechanic, and mini bosses fight, between that and 100 runs gradivus?

2,5 hours wow, well a bit more depending of people maybe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nah I still don't understand where you're going, when I try to understand I get like you're thinking DE are forbidden to touch anything that doesn't have a coop element, but as I said I'm not sure what you mean.

 

yup it wasn't repetitive

yup it was repetitive

Well it seems too much cynical to just put it like that. In short it's too dependant of whether you find it fun enough or not, but there are people who won't ever do excavation because they are not interested in addition to being somewhat of another survival mode (there are people who don't like survival or similar things, just to say) so for them it is just as repetitive.

 

But I do understand if you say it is more repetitive than cryotic, but cryotic was still repetitive, just like.. a lot of thing.

But don't expect every event to overcome each other.

 

15 runs isn't that much of a problem, and having caches, a mini defense phase (quite bad though), progressive gimping mechanic, and mini bosses fight, between that and 100 runs gradivus?

2,5 hours wow, well a bit more depending of people maybe.

 

2.5 hrs just for the default score. Its not bad over few days right. But if you want to affect leaderboards you need to do much more and you start to do no damage. So you rely on randoms with low score who do all the work, you are basically forced to AFK as you become a dead weight, while some one else does the job. Thats why I say personal difficulty is a very bad idea.

 

100 runs gradivus was also mad grind

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This event wasn't that bad, I agree that it was repetitive, the only solution I could give is to reduce 15 to 9 so it would be less repetitive.

3 exposure points - badge

6 exposure points - slash mods

9 exposure points - dagger

 

I didn't like the Derelict part, every room felt the same and that was extremely repetitive, also searching for caches felt like it was a waste of time.

From Portal room part and the other mini boss fight felt good.

On Ceres the grinner sisters were too overpowered, almost unstoppable bullet sponges. That was bad from what I can tell of my experience.

On Phobos and Earth it was good, balanced. I completed them without my pro gear, I was leveling weapons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My thoughts on the event:

 

I was all for it as I did the first couple of runs. The premise was interesting. The lore implications were interesting. And the event unfolding itself for the first time was definitely very interesting. However, the void portal event lost luster around the 4th time I did it, mainly because it played out exactly the same way every time.

 

Caches, while rewarding, felt too time consuming, and at the later areas like Ceres, the added headache of having your fighting potential stripped from you made the rewards seem not worth it in comparison to just finishing the missions and getting the event over with.

 

I wasn't fond of the exposure idea at first, as I have always been against the idea that difficulty should be attained by "gimping" players. For me, difficulty is coming across new enemies that put into motion brilliant tactics that force me to re-purpose my powers and change my strategies. Difficulty is not achieved for me, by simply taking away powers altogether and making the only strategy you have to "shoot the guy".

 

Oberon is currently my favorite frame since the buff, and I was tearing out my hair in frustration. His powers were just inconsequential once you start playing in Ceres. I don't think Oberon has ever been accused of "cheesing" enemies a lot like other frames such as Valkyr, but every single one of his powers was rendered ineffectual. Smite may have been the only exception, but it was made so useless that shooting was always the better alternative. Hallowed Ground got to the point where either its range was reduced so much that it just plain didn't exist, or that its duration was so short that it was gone before the power could actually do anything. Renewal only healed 11 health at its best, which is laughable even with the gimping. Reckoning only worked if you were literally touching the enemy, which is a terrible plan, even without gimping.

 

It got down to the point where the fact that my frame was Oberon was completely irrelevant, as my friends were suffering from their powers being absolutely useless as well. Why call the game "Warframe" if events are going to take away what makes the Warframes themselves unique, makes them more viable for one player over another, gives them differentiation from each other. Playing a Valkyr felt exactly the same as playing Oberon, since powers were taken out and stat debuffs made their health/shields/etc. virtually the same. The long hours you may spend custom fitting your Warframe with the right mods to best suit your playstyle are completely wasted in this event, where mod effects are taken away.

 

The event mainly turned the game into having a nice decked out gun and regular shooting. Which honestly makes it blur into the other mainline shooters that I don't enjoy playing because there is no real substance other than shooting the gun.

 

I want to deck out my Warframe with the perfect mods and maxed out abilities and feel really powerful, and then jump into a game where I am face to face with interesting and complex enemies that make me apprehensive regardless of my power. To make a metaphor, I want to be a knight, fully decked out in armor, fighting a fearsome battle against a dragon, not changed into a little boy with a twig pitted into battle with some regular guy. The event stripped the elements of the game that made Warframe stand out to me from other typical shooter games.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMO this is basically a test will caches reward exploration. That's it.

So far is it good ?

 

Yes, a fair amount of people do search them, that is successful enough.

The event is so easy that I completed within 2 hours with exploration.

Without exploration and doing it solo, I would have finished it in an hour+ top.

 

As for grind I don't particularly feel the grind, but that is coming a guy who played the hell out of Gravidus and getting a statue for it.

Your mileage will vary.

Edited by fatpig84
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So legitimate criticisms of flawed mechanics=butthurt. Good to know. 

 

Fanboys and white knights. What did you expect?

 

There is an unending circle going on the forums: DE release stuff > some people give (negative) feedback > those people got flamed > threads die after time due to lack of criticism > DE does nothing due to lack of feedback > everyone start to complain when they find out things that people, who gave feedback told everyone about > DE either does nothing or take feedback into consideration after a several months or even a year in some cases > repeat

Edited by Vance.Stubbs
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Fanboys and white knights. What did you expect?

 

There is an unending circle going on the forums: DE release stuff > some people give (negative) feedback > those people got flamed > threads die after time due to lack of criticism > DE does nothing due to lack of feedback > everyone start to complain when they find out things that people, who gave feedback told everyone about > DE either does nothing or take feedback into consideration after a several months or even a year in some cases > repeat

 

"everyone who disagrees with me is a fanboy/white knight"

 

Yeah, okay.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

umm... but 15 runs is like, mega easy? and the mission itself is rad? and the exposure is just for the event? so - what is actually your problem?

this reminds me of a little kid complaining about his double choc, lolly-and-candy-coated-extravoganza-icecream being just too fkn cold and throwing it on the ground

People like you are the reason why it takes so long to get things changed or fixed in Warframe. 

Whenever someone has an opinion that differs even slightly from yours, you become aggresive and start whining like the very same spoiled child you just described. 

 

The feeback section is a place for people to put forth ideas to improve the game, not for you to take out your frustrations. Get a punching bag or go the the gym if you need to vent. 

 

When someone posts an idea, the least you can do is take a couple minutes to THINK before posting. We are here to discuss, not to flame. Or at least, I'm here to discuss. 

 

When I see a post that I disagree with, as long as it's not about someting obvious like the founders pack policies, I sit, read, and consider what the OP has to say. Why? because that's what these forums were made for. 

 

Hell, at the end of my OP I even said that the reason I made this thread is because I know DE can do better, and I know that they take community feedback into account when making changes. So I made this thread with the intention of playing some role in improving the game. But you? Right now you're nothing but an obstacle getting in the way of progress and improvement. If you refuse to respect the purpose of the feeback forums, don't bother posting. You just become a problem for everyone who's here for the right reasons. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"everyone who disagrees with me is a fanboy/white knight"

 

Yeah, okay.

Misinterpretation of the year. 

 

He's saying that too many people don't respect the purpose and rules of the feedback forums. Rather than discussing things in a civilized manner, they flame anyone who has a slightly different opinion from their own. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Misinterpretation of the year. 

 

He's saying that too many people don't respect the purpose and rules of the feedback forums. Rather than discussing things in a civilized manner, they flame anyone who has a slightly different opinion from their own. 

 

You mean the exact same thing people on both sides do? For every person who blindly defends something there's another blindly attacking. Which, coincidentally, is also not respecting the purpose and rules of the feedback forum. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You mean the exact same thing people on both sides do? For every person who blindly defends something there's another blindly attacking. Which, coincidentally, is also not respecting the purpose and rules of the feedback forum. 

I never said that it only happens on one side.

 

But I will say that it's more common to see fanboys than anti-fanboys. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...