De's Development Model

[vaugahn]

We have enough mechanics to be able to sit down and balance most of the game without having to create more content. 

 

I don't think we do. 

 

Right now our only endgame is infinite scaling enemies. If we want all frames to be viable at all levels, then we need every frame to have a hard-CC or damage mitigating utility ability. We also need our personal damage output to scale higher than the normal Serration+HC+elementals limit. So, we need a new mechanic somewhere in there. Either a different endgame, or a different scaling system.

 

The same can be applied for dozens of things all across this game. Resources, quests, alerts, the levels themselves, there's lots of stuff we need to work on. I don't count weapons when I talk about us needing to add content. 

[Vastaren]

I think your chat might be broken (it's been having some issues now and again, specifically with connectivity).

 

Either that or everyone's set their region to a more populated one. Like NA West or NA East for the sake of recruiting/trading/chatting.

 

[...] you should maybe switch your region to NA East/West for recruiting/chatting because that's sort of where all the English speaking players seem to congregate.

All the things I was going to say for the other points have been said by eloquent, reasonable people already but on this argument, I have to point something out.

 

The chat isn't actually broken - Oceania is actually silent. Telling the OP to leave for NAW or East because that's where everyone else is, shows just how badly the 14.1.4 chat changes backfired. I'm not saying you're wrong for suggesting it, but your response either deliberately or not emphasises the part about Oceania being for all intents and purposes dead, and irreversibly so. Recommending that we leave our region chat for a more populated one because of a situation that has received no attention from the devs and is undoubtedly unintentional just really, really hurts to hear. The sad part is that I'm not disagreeing with you because you're completely right about it.

 

And this situation spotlights (or it would, if attention were given) the underlying frustration I (and others) share with the OP regarding DE's community interface. On one hand, they're great for their devstreams, giveaways, and genuine interaction with the community. On the other, examples like these and a perceived lack of response towards more serious, harder questions tinge our relationship a bit darker.

 

I started reading this thread thinking "come on. DE's 'development model' can't be bad enough to warrant a wall of text from someone other than myself, can it?" but now, after seeing how the points have been fleshed out, I can't really disagree with my initial impression more. I don't agree with the OP on the topic of reworking whole systems over molding the current one in favor of balance, but the perceived lack of response for either and a seeming overemphasis on new content is just as important an issue here.

 

This thread attempts to tie together a lot of the feedback coming from veteran players to create a cohesive argument against what is seen as the direction DE is taking. I can't exactly refute all the points, but I'll link this for relevance. I think the threadstarter reduces down to a lack of knowledge about the real direction DE is taking. The status quo is well-established - every two or so weeks, a devstream, every four or so devstreams, a major update. The problem is that we don't know what all this is leading towards, and hence can't reconcile our confusion, substituting in our own subjective visions and plans, with our wanting to help contribute constructively to the process. I could be way off, but I think this underlies a lot of the tension in this thread. We know what balance means to us, but what does it mean for the future of Warframe?

[vaugahn]

The status quo is well-established - every two or so weeks, a devstream, every four or so devstreams, a major update. The problem is that we don't know what all this is leading towards, and hence can't reconcile our confusion, substituting in our own subjective visions and plans, with our wanting to help contribute constructively to the process. I could be way off, but I think this underlies a lot of the tension in this thread. We know what balance means to us, but what does it mean for the future of Warframe?

 

What I'd like to see is a devstream where they sit down and talk long-term goals. I'm pretty sure they know where they want to go, but filling us in on exactly where that is would cut out a lot of the confusion and bad feelings many people seem to have.

[Evanescent]

I must applaud OP's well stated and fleshed out arguement using actual points, and his response to the feedback. This is what we need in the forums. 

[LascarCapable]

Thread cleaned.

 

All kind of "TL;DR" comments or image spams will be erased. This is a serious thread with a lot of good points, don't make it a mess.

[Monolake]

that's a pretty negative viewpoint.

 

players that want to give feedback / discuss the issues that they see are exactly what these forums are for. please don't advocate that someone "give up" on what they enjoy.

His post is 90% frustration venting and 10% feedback. Doesn't looks like he enjoys it. And demanding from the developer to suddenly change their ways  quickly - that's just not realistic. 

 

Edit I might be wrong, but that how it feels to me. I'v done everything in this game myself, I can only open it to run events or do some testing, no point of grinding over some rares and getting frustrated over that lack of  'endgame' and some underdeveloped systems.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Monolake

[Gurzil]

Oceania has always been a pretty bleak place. I've gone there in the past to recruit post, and so have others I know. I think at most we've seen 12 people there. Also, didn't DE recently implement a feature (to reduce load) that only showed users currently active/chatting in the recruiting/trading channel? If you look in NA West at peak times, you might only see 20, but there are many more actually there.

 

As for the rest of the post.. Well, there is a lot DE should do, needs to do, and i'm sure one day, will do. The game is starting to feel quite top-heavy though, and some serious consideration of it's base needs addressing.

[(PSN)Shadow_Of_Hunhow]

I agree, new content is fun and all, but I'd rather them go back and refine all the content they've created. It wouldn't matter that we haven't gotten new weapons or armor or frames, because if they do it right, it'll feel like a new game. Frame abilities reworked will make them feel brand new again, melee weapons reworked will make it feel like there's more variety, like heavy weapons and daggers being how they should be, and other systems like mods and parkour and stealth well make it feel like a brand new world.

[xethier]

This has been a great discussion. I want to applaud all the posters thus far. It's been calm, rational and a delight to see a thread of this quality arise.

 

Balance:

First of all, I cringe when I hear the term "balance" bandied about. "Balance" is usually reserved as a substitution for "pvp combat balance" and, while that's not exactly how it's being used in this thread by those posters that have said it... it's still cringe worthy to me for many reasons. Mainly because it's so subjective. 

 

Balance isn't important to me over the long term. Consistency is. Capability is. Things of that nature. The ability for any warframe to go into any content available and be able to handle themselves should be the goal. And for the most part, that's been handled admirably. The problem crops up when you get to the current "community" concept of end-game. Which is endless scaling missions.

 

I think that's actually a fallacy of the community to dub that "end-game" and try to scale things in accordance to that expectation. I'm not trying to start an argument on this point, just to highlight the fact that DE seems to have thrown endless scaling missions in as a way to "see how far you can go" without any real payoff for the players. Without payoff, the incentive is bragging rights, which again returns to the community expectation or your own personal goals. Trying to scale powers and weapons and so forth to that expectation probably isn't a good idea. 

 

Instead, take the most difficult current content and scale for that. Which would be (in my opinion) any of the t4 content (to a reasonable scale) or the most recent event missions. (those sisters past mission 13 were pretty freakin' difficult)

 

On to other issues.

 

Mods:

The mod system, as mentioned previously in this thread, the core idea of the mods themselves aren't broken. As said above by vaugahn; "only the powers allotted to the cards" -- which makes altering the mod system as easy as altering the cards. It's actually a fairly elegant solution to player customization. And while I don't think the core mechanic is broken, I do think it needs an overhaul to adjust the values on many of the cards, remove some from active drop, add a few new ones in and re-think many of the decisions that lead to some in the first place.

 

Without going into specifics, there are so many useless cards, absolutely critical cards etc... 

 

All of this is from a player perspective. Obviously there is a ton of back-end work to manage it. Either way, you don't need to completely scrap the idea if you're careful about the alterations.

 

Tilesets:

Level layout really has gotten a bit stale for most veteran players. Procedural generation does limit some of the capabilities of the devs to modify this too far... but, we're space ninjas. Should we really have to be more-or-less on-rails to get to our goal and back out again? There are dozens (if not hundreds) of exits from the current tilesets that are never used. Let's use them.

 

The grineer gallion tileset seems to be the worst offender here. Seconded by Jupiter's Cloud city. I don't know what the limits to the procedural generation are in this engine, but it seems to me that it's fairly robust. Is there any way we can start seeing some greater diversity?

 

Again, I don't know how long the development time takes to generate new tiles, but I'd love to see some crop up in every update. Just one or two in each tileset. I'd also like to see more vertical travel (above and below) added as well. Earth would be a fantastic location for that to exist. Being able to jump down into an old abandoned subway or skyscraper that's sunken would be incredibly neat.

 

The above subject is more or less my personal issue, I don't see it mentioned by many, but it's fairly near and dear to me as I love exploring and seeing what insanity the devs have come up with. =D

 

---

 

I could wax philosophic for hours here but I'll quit where I am. There are many other issues that could be discussed. (and I hope to see them all, would be great to see this thread maintain this level of rational discourse to 30+ pages)

[vaugahn]

Balance:

 

Just to talk about this part for a little bit as it seems to be one of the more difficult issues:

 

In PvE, balance is a combination of a few things. The main points, as best I can express them, are A) the weighting of choices, B) player power relative to enemy power, C) the difficulty curve, and D) risk versus reward.

 

A) Every time you equip a weapon, you're making a choice. You have to choose from a group of different weapons for what you feel will best serve you in whatever you're doing. The current problem we have is that these choices are unevenly weighted. Ideally, all choices would have equal weight, while still remaining situationally different. For example, a Boltor Prime and a Braton Prime would both feel like viable choices, but require different usage. The problem we have is that some choices are massively weighted. The Boltor Prime outperforms at every range, in every situation. Compared to the other choices you could make, it's much better. Some choices are also underweighted, like heavy melee weapons. 

 

B) This is more a matter of player opinion than anything else, but how powerful should we be compared to enemies? Should we be nigh-invincible demigods capable of wiping out whole armies, or should we be comparatively fragile and have to rely on wits to survive? Right now we're somewhere in the middle, which feels about right for this game. However, as you mentioned, infinite content is where problems start. Player power is hard capped, with the exclusion of CC. Enemy power is effectively infinite. Do we want this in our game? If we do, then we need ways to compensate for it. If we don't, then we need to figure out exactly how strong enemies are allowed to get while still remaining balanced relative to player power. 

 

C)  How difficult should the game be for a new player, compared to a veteran player? This is a topic that gets discussed a lot for every game, and I'd imagine you've probably seen the charts about it. Here's one that I like, at least for warframe:

 

 

Now, in that one they have player skill on there as well as enemy difficulty. This is particularly relavent to Warframe because right now it doesn't feel like we're rewarding player skill, or requiring it in our "endgame". Killing a level 100 enemy is really no different than killing a level 10 enemy. Our difficulty curve is totally linear right now. The problem this causes is that there's a long period where the players are significantly better than the challenge, and then suddenly a spot where the challenge is better than the players. Unfortunately I have no idea how to fix this. Tiering enemy levels could be a start, but that doesn't solve the core issue here. What we need is for skilled players to feel evenly challenged throughout the game, but still feel a sense of progression.

 

D) This is actually something that came up recently in regards to balance; should higher-reward weapons and frames have a higher risk associated with them? The example I'm thinking of is launchers. They are a very high reward weapon, capable of wiping the floor with entire waves in a single shot. For the longest time there was almost no risk associated with them, but with their ammo pools reduced you now run the risk of running out of ammo and being left defenseless. Is this how it should be? I don't really know. That's a question we need to answer as a community. 

 

Anyways, that's my wall of text for the day. Hopefully that made it a little clearer what I think balance actually means, and hopefully it outlined what I think we need to look at when we start talking about balance.

[Mokkania]

What I'd like to see is a devstream where they sit down and talk long-term goals. I'm pretty sure they know where they want to go, but filling us in on exactly where that is would cut out a lot of the confusion and bad feelings many people seem to have.

Well, there is that

Also I'd want somewhere, something where they'd explain exactly why they do such or such thing... devstream usually only scratch a little bit of the surface.

[xethier]

-snip-

 

Scaling Balance! Ah ha! Well defined sir. I applaud you.

 

I agree. I also don't have an answer. Personally, I would simply ignore any concept of scaling balance above 40 minutes in t4s (wave ~30 in t4d). (as you've reached what I can only assume) is the "expected cap" that DE has designed around that mode. (which means level 65-70 or so mobs)

Past that you've reached "the stupid scale" where direct damage abilities are useless, CC becomes king and armor / shields / health are now pointless. (as more than one or two shots renders you a smudge on the floor)

 

As for weapon balance between mk1-braton vs. boltor prime vs. ogris / penta -- I expect tiers of weapons in any game I play to a certain extent. The ability in warframe to modify weapons really does blur the lines though. Horribly so. It makes it very difficult to properly manage any concept of Scaling Balance within the system. In that respect, it behooves us to remove mods from the equation entirely and focus on base statistics and abilities only. (raw damage vs. explosion radius vs. innate punch-through and the like) as all things being equal mods really don't matter as they'll only be boosting the base damage / abilities of the weapon anyway.

 

The difficulty curve in warframe is exceedingly strange. I found the first 100 hours of this game to be very difficult compared to the next 600 or so. Keep in mind that my first 100 hours came between updates 10 and 11. I was 80 hours in (and almost ready to give up) due to a lack of serration. Once I had that mod, well... the result is as expected. Massive power bump and all of a sudden I'm entirely done with the solar rails and stomping down void missions. I once advocated for the removal of this mod entirely... that was around hour 100. Now I know better, but I still would like to see something done to scale players vs. mobs to a more rational degree. As to how to do that... well. Organic methods really don't apply as a clever player will usually find some way around that. Authoritarian methods will always leave a bad taste in ones mouth.

 

I think the "tactical alerts" are a step in the right direction, but again, this is the "authoritarian method" and inducing artificial caps on players is usually a sign that something has "Gone Wrong!"

 

This is why I think the mod system needs a bit of an overhaul. You could solve many of the scaling balance problems with some clever use of mod balance / limitations. If that is conclave cap by item (not overall) by planet. Well, that may work. But before it makes sense the conclave values need to make sense. (and they really don't)

 

These are the exact issues that arise to cause the sense of scaling balance issues that so many are frustrated with in this game. And most players don't really notice much until they've really gotten into the "meat" of it. (by that I mean acquired their core "required" mods. (serration, hornet strike, redirection, vitality, (there are more, but you get the idea)) and really started to boost them via fusion)

 

One of the major limitations to player strength used to be access to credits for fusion. That's been done away with once Dark Sectors were implemented. (as void keys are a gate to farming the void) -- The current attitude of the clans in ownership have limited that somewhat, much to the frustration of a large portion of the community... but that limitation is actually a good thing for overall viability of the game. However, it's just turned around into a huge influx of credits for being involved in PvP. (which, as a mode, needs some serious help, very much in relation to the exact issues we're discussing)

 

At the end of my diatribe. I don't have any solutions, only more questions and additional issues to highlight. I think, in the end, that the mod system itself is the underpinned problem that needs some sort of resolution or adjustment. However, as to how to go about doing that without causing incredible gnashing of teeth from the entire community... no clue. :(

Edited September 20, 2014 by xethier

[vaugahn]

-snip-

 

There's nothing wrong with questions that don't have answers. Asking the question means you at least know where to look.

 

Anyways, you're correct. The mod system does make any sort of tiered balance very confusing. That's not a bad thing though, and we can leverage it to our advantage. What we should do though (at least in my opinion) is try and move away from mods providing core damage, and have them modify the existing functionality of a weapon.

 

Now, the difficulty curve is where things get problematic. Our difficulty curve is all sorts of messed up. Here's my hastily assembled in MSpaint version:

 

 

Now, I'm sure you can see the problem with that. Unfortunately, I have no solution. It's a problem I have no idea how to even begin to approach. We do need to realize though that infinite content is out of the bounds of the normal game and will not be balanced to. That brings up the problem of us now needing an "infinite" mode that can be balanced to for endgame players.

 

Well, there is that

Also I'd want somewhere, something where they'd explain exactly why they do such or such thing... devstream usually only scratch a little bit of the surface.

 

The 14.6.1 patch notes where they explained the reasoning behind all the changes, those were perfect. Let's have more like that.

Edited September 20, 2014 by vaugahn

[fatpig84]

 

At the end of my diatribe. I don't have any solutions, only more questions and additional issues to highlight. I think, in the end, that the mod system itself is the underpinned problem that needs some sort of resolution or adjustment. However, as to how to go about doing that without causing incredible gnashing of teeth from the entire community... no clue. :(

 

The big problem is a lot of people buy mods with platinum. And that is the real issue. 

 

In fact I had said this before and I said it again, DE practically sealed their fate when they allow core damage mods to be traded.

If DE removes them, people will demand compensation. And during the rush days of trading, some of these damage mods fetch over 500 to 600 plat. DE will have a huge issue addressing those.

 

So such changes are impossible. DE can only make adjustments now.

 

 

What I had proposed a year ago, was to restore weapon leveling, so weapons actually gain damage / rof / reload speeds etc on their own. So while we cannot completely remove damage mods, we can tone them down drastically and remove the RnG that is associated in hunting them down and grinding them to rank 10.

 

For example Serration will become 99% at rank 10.

While a Braton gains 2.2% damage and 0.5% reload speed per level.

So at level 30, the rifle gains 66% damage and 15% reload speed.

If we had that, we won't even need those cracked damage mods.

 

But DE has chosen cracked damage mods. so this is basically rejecting the basis of this idea.

Edited September 20, 2014 by fatpig84

[fatpig84]

 

Now, I'm sure you can see the problem with that. Unfortunately, I have no solution. It's a problem I have no idea how to even begin to approach. We do need to realize though that infinite content is out of the bounds of the normal game and will not be balanced to. That brings up the problem of us now needing an "infinite" mode that can be balanced to for endgame players.

 

The 14.6.1 patch notes where they explained the reasoning behind all the changes, those were perfect. Let's have more like that.

 

 

Other than setting a hard cap on survivals (60 minutes), excavations (6000 points), defense (50 waves) and interceptions (50 waves). Or you implement gear checks like level 80 lephantis (either extremely powerful weapons or 4 corrosive projection and a knack for dodging stuff since most things will kill you, even 3 swipes from a charger)

 

Otherwise no way, there is no way you can implement endgame or a fixed balance point.

 

MMOs circumvent this by adding a "raid boss" as endgame content, which is again gone after the next content update, but the sad thing is, that is successful.

 

Just look at how Borderlands 2, Diablo 3, heck or even the cliche posterboy WoW, after you finish an endgame raid, you are essentially just farming the boss until the next content update. So much for that.

Edited September 20, 2014 by fatpig84

[xethier]

-snip-

 

As for the platinum issue... I understand your point, but I really don't have sympathy for those players that spent that amount of money. Not to be a callous jerk, but no trades are backed by DE and if a player made the choice to spend that amount of money to bypass content and that content is eventually removed... well... buyer beware. I'd rather see the game flourish and resolve some scaling problems. (I realize I may be in the minority in this opinion, and if so... well. okay then.)

 

As for the serration adjustment. I believe I read your post (or one similar, there have been many advocating a flavor of your idea) And it's a good one. As for the cracked mods removing that idea, nah. The cracked mods could simply be a band-aid until a real solution can be resolved.

 

I'd even agree to a system similar to that. But... using your numbers, you're actually increasing the damage output of all weapons.

mk1-braton for example = 18 damage @ base.

18 * 1.66 = 29.88 (@ 30 without serration)

29.88 * 1.99 = 59.4612 (@ 30 with serration)

 

current serration:

18 * 2.65 = 47.7

 

see? you'd have to adjust serration down quite a bit further than you'd think.

 

i think you're on the right path, and the numbers really don't matter. but modifying base weapons by level introduces a whole new level of scaling problems.

[fatpig84]

As for the platinum issue... I understand your point, but I really don't have sympathy for those players that spent that amount of money. Not to be a callous jerk, but no trades are backed by DE and if a player made the choice to spend that amount of money to bypass content and that content is eventually removed... well... buyer beware. I'd rather see the game flourish and resolve some scaling problems. (I realize I may be in the minority in this opinion, and if so... well. okay then.)

 

As for the serration adjustment. I believe I read your post (or one similar, there have been many advocating a flavor of your idea) And it's a good one. As for the cracked mods removing that idea, nah. The cracked mods could simply be a band-aid until a real solution can be resolved.

 

I'd even agree to a system similar to that. But... using your numbers, you're actually increasing the damage output of all weapons.

mk1-braton for example = 18 damage @ base.

18 * 1.66 = 29.88 (@ 30 without serration)

29.88 * 1.99 = 59.4612 (@ 30 with serration)

 

current serration:

18 * 2.65 = 47.7

 

see? you'd have to adjust serration down quite a bit further than you'd think.

 

i think you're on the right path, and the numbers really don't matter. but modifying base weapons by level introduces a whole new level of scaling problems.

 

 

Eh number crunching isn't what I am good at.

So I will leave it to DE to handle that.

 

But yeah the idea is to make stuff less reliant on base damage mods, weapons should be lethal on their own.

And of course not to mention, some mods are completely useless. Like Piercing hit.

[xethier]

Eh number crunching isn't what I am good at.

So I will leave it to DE to handle that.

 

But yeah the idea is to make stuff less reliant on base damage mods, weapons should be lethal on their own.

And of course not to mention, some mods are completely useless. Like Piercing hit.

 

i don't know if i'd go so far as to call piercing hit useless, but i get your point. (hehe, point, piercing) (god i'm goofy before the second pot of coffee)

 

I'd be fine with completely removing serration entirely and amping up elemental & physical damage mod strengths. It would certainly introduce some interesting builds from the community if nothing else. There would be balance issues here too, but at least you'd have another slot to play with that isn't REQUIRED for a damage scaling mod like serration / hornet strike / pressure point. 

 

I think we've gone a bit far afield from the initial point of the thread though, so i'm going to put a pin in this for now.

Good conversation though!

[Archistopheles]

I think you misinterpreted my semi-sarcastic response to Arlayn's post, ~snip~

Probably, but believe me, you have a valid point. DE is a company made up of many individuals. I believe the fault lies on whoever is supposed to be in charge of looking back; and if there is nobody looking back, then the fault lies on one of the "directors" (I think they call them).

The people in charge of new content, and the artists who are designing it are all doing amazing work, but the person(s) in charge of making sure everything is working like it should is either overworked, non-existant, or unsure of exactly what direction to take it.

There have been a lot of growing pains, but one thing remains certain: DE is not afraid of scrapping/changing anything in regards to their game. As long as there is still "fun" to be had, I'll give them as much time as they need to fix all the details.

[fatpig84]

Probably, but believe me, you have a valid point. DE is a company made up of many individuals. I believe the fault lies on whoever is supposed to be in charge of looking back; and if there is nobody looking back, then the fault lies on one of the "directors" (I think they call them).

The people in charge of new content, and the artists who are designing it are all doing amazing work, but the person(s) in charge of making sure everything is working like it should is either overworked, non-existant, or unsure of exactly what direction to take it.

There have been a lot of growing pains, but one thing remains certain: DE is not afraid of scrapping/changing anything in regards to their game. As long as there is still "fun" to be had, I'll give them as much time as they need to fix all the details.

 

IIRC only Scott has the balancing pie no ?

Between frames and pretty much everything that does damage, that is a huge pie.

[Archistopheles]

IIRC only Scott has the balancing pie no ?

Between frames and pretty much everything that does damage, that is a huge pie.

If I had to guess? I think he has a group under him, but wants to make sure that he gets all the flak from players - like the Nyx of the development team - so his subordinates can work without any outside influence/threats from crazy people.

But that theory is based only on his comments during the one livestream concerning the Frost changes. I could be completely wrong.

[Weconic]

I agree with what you're  saying here. As a vet player myself I find very little things to keep me engaged with Warframe. Yes, there are events, but those quickly die out after 2-3 days when everyone has their rewards. I'll get back to this in a second.

I think it may be that there is very little to work towards at a higher level. Mastery ranks are meaningless after rank 8, it just becomes a number next your name. I just find myself playing 2-3 games then leaving and playing something else.

 

Also, with events. Top tier awards are way too easy to get now. I remember with the Gradivus Dilemma, the top tier reward was achieved after 100 runs! This kept the event alive, you'd always have a random group of people to play with. But now, 15 missions and you're done, then people  go out and play something else. I'm not hating on DE, I love you guys, but i'm just finding it hard to keep myself engaged with this game. I'm not losing hope in DE, I'm sure they have an entire Arsenal of ideas, we'll just have to wait and see.

 

-Weconic

[Vastaren]

Balance:

First of all, I cringe when I hear the term "balance" bandied about. "Balance" is usually reserved as a substitution for "pvp combat balance" and, while that's not exactly how it's being used in this thread by those posters that have said it... it's still cringe worthy to me for many reasons. Mainly because it's so subjective.

Which illustrates my point perfectly. With a contentious, situationally-defined understanding of what balance is, there's no long-term feedback we can provide which will necessarily remain relevant even among ourselves because DE hasn't clarified what direction feedback should take.

 

I should have clarified what I meant by it to alleviate that confusion, but the subsequent definition provided by vaugahn is workable, and response to that seems to be largely what I'd expected. What I really meant to point out isn't the subjective nature of the concept of 'balance' in relation to Warframe, but how feedback is divergent and poorly disseminated as a result of a lack of direction, hence the frustration felt by many members in this thread.

 

It's also why:

What I'd like to see is a devstream where they sit down and talk long-term goals. I'm pretty sure they know where they want to go, but filling us in on exactly where that is would cut out a lot of the confusion and bad feelings many people seem to have.

seems to be a popular sentiment. One of the things I liked about Devstream 37 was the fact that it didn't pretend to deal with any hard questions. It was a really indepth look into how art makes its way into the game, with a lot of interesting discussion on the direction art has and will take in Warframe. While it might not seem satisfying for a few others in this thread, I really enjoyed the candor with which the artists were presented and the insight into a significant portion of Warframe development.

 

But the conversation's moved on :)

Edited September 21, 2014 by Vastaren

[Mokkania]

I'd even agree to a system similar to that. But... using your numbers, you're actually increasing the damage output of all weapons.

mk1-braton for example = 18 damage @ base.

18 * 1.66 = 29.88 (@ 30 without serration)

29.88 * 1.99 = 59.4612 (@ 30 with serration)

 

current serration:

18 * 2.65 = 47.7

hm btw about that, the problem is that the base isn't defined

 

base 18

18* 1,66 = 29,88 (+ 11,88) level 30 bonus

18* 1,99 = 35,82 (+ 17,82) serration bonus

 

level 30 + serration with base 18

18 + 11,88 + 17,82 = 47,7

[Azamagon]

@OP - Good post! :) I definitely agreed that they seem more intent on adding more, rather than improving what they have. I think most people are agreeing with that these days.

 

Just to chime in quickly regarding my thoughts on the discussion on balance:

 

I'd say the main culprits are a combination of:

1) Weapon damagemods being too strong.

2) Power efficiency being too efficient.

3) Endlessly scaling enemies + enemies scaling too fast.

 

All these problems go hand in hand and scale very differently.

1) Weapon damage scales absurdly fast once you get the essential mods. Too fast imo, to make balancing an actual thing.

2) Power efficiency is absurdly good as well, especially on CC frames. At the cap, you can cast your abilities 4 times more often than before. That's not 75% efficiency, that's an efficiency of 300%!!!

3) Endlessly scaling enemies causes the extremely powerful weaponmods and power efficiency to be "necessary". The very fast scaling of enemies (due to #1) is also the reason why damaging Warframe powers become useless so quickly. Even on the solar map!

 

If all these 3 things were scaled down, we wouldn't view damagemods and power efficiency as nearly as "necessary", but more neat upgrades. More raw numbers on this:

 

* If a mod like Serration only had 5% bonus per rank, it would give 55% at max rank. Good bonus (especially when stacked with other mods), but far from a necessity either. And similar with other similar mods of course. Doing so would make people less prone to just use damagemods all the time. The underpowered mods would also get indirectly more powerful and thus also used more (sure, a few still needs some buffing, but still).

* If power efficiency used its old CORRECT formula, we would only "spam" powers for emergencies (+ a hardcap wouldn't be necessary either). Note: With the old formula, 100% efficiency means we would cast abilities 100% more often (aka, abilities cost 50% of their original cost). This nerf could also allow all abilities to be buffed (specially to become more "AoE"-ish), as a lot of them are extremely underwhelming right now (Freeze, Soul Punch etc).

* If enemies didn't scale as quickly either, the above nerfs would be justified as well. Damaging Warframe powers would also last way longer. It would also make Warframe survivability mods (like Vitality etc) be less necessary and could even be nerfed down a bit, similar to Serration (although less severe of course). It would MASSIVELY help the newcomers too, as mods would not be as necessary to them, while still helpful of course. The whole concept of "Broken/Damaged mods" could even be scrapped in that case.

 

TL;DR: A good start for balancing, regardless of what you have as a guideline, is to tone down all the extremely scaling numbers, mainly on weapon damagemods, power efficiency and enemy scaling (both their damage done and their tankiness). Then people would start taking the more underpowered mods more seriously (of which a whole bunch of them still need some buffing of course) and we would see far more modding variety, something this game sorely needs!