"rhinos Everywhere" Is A Symptom, Not The Problem

[Naftal]

No, current moves are not perfect. That's ridiculous to even say. This game is unfinished.

 

You're right that sliding doesn't need CC immunity, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about making a dodge actually a dodge. Spin attacks should not be our dodge move. They don't have the correct functionality for that. We have a roll that should be our dodge move, but nobody uses it because it doesn't work right. That should be fixed. 

So, this is just about the fact that sliding and spin attacking don't aesthetically look like dodging? (Actually, sliding looks like that a lot for me in most situations I use it for dodging)

 

What I mean by sliding/spin attacks being perfect for dodging is that mechanically, they are perfect for dodging. They may not look perfect for it but they will get you out of the harms way in an effective manner.

[vaugahn]

So, this is just about the fact that sliding and spin attacking don't aesthetically look like dodging? (Actually, sliding looks like that a lot for me in most situations I use it for dodging)

 

What I mean by sliding/spin attacks being perfect for dodging is that mechanically, they are perfect for dodging. They may not look perfect for it but they will get you out of the harms way in an effective manner.

 

...they're not really mechanically perfect for dodging either. To execute a spin attack you have to move in a direction, slide, wait for that animation to finish, and then trigger a spin attack. Heavy gunner knockdowns and ancient riplines are physically faster than that process. And you can't block either of those unless you've got your melee out which is a whole different problem.

 

If you'd like to suggest a way to make slide attacks mechanically useful as a dodge, then by all means go ahead. You'd need to be able to trigger them faster, have greater directional control, and end the slide sooner. 

[Naftal]

...they're not really mechanically perfect for dodging either. To execute a spin attack you have to move in a direction, slide, wait for that animation to finish, and then trigger a spin attack. Heavy gunner knockdowns and ancient riplines are physically faster than that process. And you can't block either of those unless you've got your melee out which is a whole different problem.

 

If you'd like to suggest a way to make slide attacks mechanically useful as a dodge, then by all means go ahead. You'd need to be able to trigger them faster, have greater directional control, and end the slide sooner. 

I don't know what do you mean by having to wait for the animation to finish.

 

I usually hold sprint button all the time, I have to re-press it very often to start another sprint and slide after another and especially midair. If I want a speed boost, I just press crouch. Depending on my current momentum and direction I want to go etc. I either just tap the crouch button or hold it for some minimal time. This is hard to explain and is basically just muscle memory combined with situation awareness.

 

If I want to do a slide attack, I don't even have to wait for the slide animation to start to do it. It's just a fast shift+ctrl(+space)+melee combo with all buttons pressed almost the same time. Or I can wait in slide position for the correct moment to execute the attack to block the incoming knockdown.

 

On top of this almost all frames have abilities that prevent knockdown during casting animation and almost all (or all?) stances have at least some attacks in their combos with cc immunity that you can time. On some weapons it works on the first attack in basic combo. I think some weapons have normal attacks with cc immunity even in quick melee mode.

 

Unless the game is very laggy, the enemy behavior is very simple and it's easy to predict when they're going to do their ground slam or try to hook you. Sliding left or right when enemy in front of you tries to hook you dodges it easily.

[Sizer]

+1 No idea what he's talking about either. Roll flipping and spinning are nearly instantaneous activities for me. Hell, I'll probably get carpal tunnel from the way my fingers work on the keyboard, but hey, I'm a game artist so it was bound to happen eventually.

 

There are so many simple but creative redirection tricks to avoid damage. Roll flipping in one direction then spinning in another is an easy way to turn corners, move around crowds, and generally avoid annoyances. It also feels bloody awesome when you flip off a cliff and then spin under the cliff to enter a room or ledge. Spess Ninjas, yo.

[Lactamid]

<p>Peronally I see a lot of  Valkyr, Zephyr and maybe Oberon. Sure there are Rhinos out there too, but there are also Frosts...and that guy is..well you know...Frost...</p>

<p> </p>

<p>High armor, shields, HP. That's what this event has come down to for me.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Edit:</p>

<p>Reading this further I agree that there is alot of knockdown and little we can do about it, and getting hit in general. Projectiles are one thing, hitscan another.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>The "Speed>everything else" is not something I'm a fan of and I think that some things would need a big rebalancing act. That the "Manic Grineer" was voted #1 was odd to me as well. A unit with knockdown...yeah cause we don't have that now do we?</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Helmets with stats were fun, now there is pretty much no reason to get helmets. If you have an old one, you're likely never going to switch it out.</p>

Edited September 20, 2014 by Lactamid

[(XBOX)Ares v SL]

So: How to fix "Rhinos Everywhere"?

Fix the problems that force everyone to use Rhinos.

-Increase frames' base movement speed.

-Nerf or remove shield-ignoring damage and abusive status procs

-Nerf knockdowns. IMO, knockdowns and stuns in FPS or TPS games should be rare and recovery from knockdowns and stuns should be quick.

-Remove unavoidable and uncounterable shield-impairing effects. (An interesting variation could be enemies that can lob a cryo projectile that impairs your shields to half for a short amount of time).

 

How do you figure that increasing all frames speed would reduce the amount that Rhino is used? Hes knowingly one of the slowest frames not fastest. I do play a Trinity mainly and have it to the point where I can confidently spam blessing (the Ultimate Ability for Trinity) however I don't really do that as I prefer to save energy and not have to use Energy Vampire as much. Knockdowns happen and trust me I know it can get annoying getting knocked down and not being able to heal in my case, however I don't think the knockdown happens as much as you seem to have posted here. 

 

There's also a few reasons why Rhino is used so often.

1) Rhino is one of the first frames you can make, Jackel while being hard till you get the strategy down is a harder boss for new players.

2) Rhino has relatively good stats for being a "Second Frame" 

3) People play towards their play style, Rhino is more or less universal toward everything, you can sit back and shoot (not recommended but can) you can rush in and normally kill everything without shields going down (Given its built properly) 

 

Xbox One doesn't have the Event yet so I can say if that makes frames slower or preform any differently but this was more on the topic of the Rhino's everywhere statement. 

[quietcanary]

First off you are completely right as to the actual problem and how the community has misrepresented it. That's not to say even if some knock down mods where added or shield ignore damage was nerfed that he would be any less all around great. Other frames would be more viable but there would still be a lot missing for them. Take ember for example. Other frames just need a dash of utility or scaling added to their abilities and that would ALSO be what would fix the player balance. Great post though!

[DivisionByZero]

Just letting everyone who has supported this discussion for improved game balance and dodging/blocking that I appreciate your support. But most importantly, this will largely help newbies if it is considered and implemented in future updates.

I also strongly urge everyone to report the trolls. Anyone who says "git gud" or "lol ur bad", or any toxic/4channic posts should be ignored and reported. You can tell which posts are obvious trolling with these rules of thumb:

-Is the post highly toxic, insulting, and written in a "4channic" style?

-Does the post start off on the (usually incorrect) basis that whoever it's addressed to is an idiot, a noob, has no skill, or otherwise bad at the game? Is the post written in a manner designed to insult the intelligence of its intended recipient?

-Is the post completely devoid of any solutions (on how to fix the game mechanics) or help (advice on how to "stop being a noob and git gud")?

-Does the post include a lot of bragging (for example: "I have no problems dodging these, you're just bad" or "these enemies aren't giving me any problems because I know how to dodge"), with no actual proof that these braggarts are anywhere near as good as they claim?

Any post that meets at least 2 of conditions should be promptly reported. I can't spend my entire day watching this discussion and reporting every troll, and I call on everyone who wants to see Warframe improved to remain vigilant and report the trolls.

[Archistopheles]

I was going to go into a detailed explanation of why you were wrong, but I'm starting to believe that the fewer people who really understand the mechanics of the game, the longer it takes DE to find and nerf the things that work. Sooo... You're wrong. Valkyr is FAR more useful in this event. Good luck learning why. :D

Ouch, Momaw, I thought we were forum-friends...

[fatpig84]

Like a boss.

 

[HoakinBlackforge]

How curious, the last game i joined to complete the event, in my team we had a rhino, we went to kill the boss the rhino and me (i had a saryn).

 

He died 3 times, trying to put his skin everytime and shooting blindly the new grineer boss with his silly boltofail prime.

 

I never died, just pulled out my serro, parried every attack i could, and use chanelling to recover all health on hit, and with rage i could recover all energy again, so i was mostly invincible.

 

^ Power = Skill V

[Filas312]

I think its more like

 

Issue 1: Not moving enough

 

Most KDs are entirely avoidable

 

Especially ancients

 

Procs only work if they land on you and between god powers and mobility that shouldnt happen often. People bring up grineer with this but their vdamage is relatively low so thier bleed procs dont hurt much at all

 

Shields are basically useless at this point and really should be worked on. at the same time there are enough ways to avoid procs that bypass shields that its not really a gigantic issue that procs pass shields as much as damage eats through shields too easily

 

The only frames too slow to avoid fire at close ranges are Rhino, Frost, and saryn

 

The rest when mobile shuld be able to avoid fire without using powers

Most Knockdowns ARE avoidable as a host, but not as a client, also some of them work like if they had some kind of homing effect. 

 

Shields are so terrible that you can run Valkyr w/o any Redirs and you're dead set as good as if you were without them. Well, with them you can use Paralysis. 

 

Sometimes sliding out of the grapple just doesn't work.

[[DE]Momaw]

Ouch, Momaw, I thought we were forum-friends...

 

I'm not sure why you think being wrong makes us not friends? :>

[SIDESTRE4M]

Getting knocked down is bad.

 

However, if you don't let shield lancers sneak up from behind and let them surprise you, it's all fine because they are slow.

 

Occassionally you get hooked by a Scorpion or an Ancient. If you are not moving a lot. Sometimes and if the connection is good you can even dodge that. The *@##&#036;slap is telegraphed as well.

 

The problem is not the knockdown, the problem is that the game is not very forgiving when you get knocked down as it may create a chain or a time window large enough to get killed.

That's logical, if I think about it :D

 

I think I died more from grenades and bleeding proccs than knockdowns. So I dunno.

Edited September 20, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[Azawarau]

Most Knockdowns ARE avoidable as a host, but not as a client, also some of them work like if they had some kind of homing effect. 

 

Shields are so terrible that you can run Valkyr w/o any Redirs and you're dead set as good as if you were without them. Well, with them you can use Paralysis. 

 

Sometimes sliding out of the grapple just doesn't work.

Idk about you but i have no issues either way unless its lagging

 

In that case nothing shoots

 

Nothing moves and its kinda creepy

 

Redirection and shields in general feel useless in end game

 

I feel like they need a gimmick like being crit proof or avoiding certain procs (slash,puncture,heat,corrosive,viral)

 

Or just be much larger than they are now

[SIDESTRE4M]

Diamond Skin provides radiation resistance now.

 

How about slash resistance mods or something like that?

(They could change vigor to to a dual mod with resistances... the stats it provides aren't really helpfull anymore.)

Edited September 20, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[Filas312]

-snip-

I am terrible with avoiding the CC, but those are so polarized... I mean, you either get instagibbed after being knocked out or just shrug it off like I do.

[Azawarau]

I am terrible with avoiding the CC, but those are so polarized... I mean, you either get instagibbed after being knocked out or just shrug it off like I do.

I usually hide for a moment then come out guns blazing

 

If youre gonna die then take the enemy with you

[Mephane]

I agree with the OP. When I decide to bring Rhino, it's basically always because I don't want to be knock down and around all the time, and/or because seemingly half the enemies now do damage that ignores your shields...

 

In my opinion, any effect that can bypass or nullify shields should be extremely rare, or not exist at all. The very idea behind shields as a game mechanic is that if you manage to receive damage only below the threshold that is your shield capacity, you are rewarded with the fact that none of the damage you took has been persistent.

[Sizer]

Just letting everyone who has supported this discussion for improved game balance and dodging/blocking that I appreciate your support. But most importantly, this will largely help newbies if it is considered and implemented in future updates.

I also strongly urge everyone to report the trolls. Anyone who says "git gud" or "lol ur bad", or any toxic/4channic posts should be ignored and reported. You can tell which posts are obvious trolling with these rules of thumb:

-Is the post highly toxic, insulting, and written in a "4channic" style?

-Does the post start off on the (usually incorrect) basis that whoever it's addressed to is an idiot, a noob, has no skill, or otherwise bad at the game? Is the post written in a manner designed to insult the intelligence of its intended recipient?

-Is the post completely devoid of any solutions (on how to fix the game mechanics) or help (advice on how to "stop being a noob and git gud")?

-Does the post include a lot of bragging (for example: "I have no problems dodging these, you're just bad" or "these enemies aren't giving me any problems because I know how to dodge"), with no actual proof that these braggarts are anywhere near as good as they claim?

Any post that meets at least 2 of conditions should be promptly reported. I can't spend my entire day watching this discussion and reporting every troll, and I call on everyone who wants to see Warframe improved to remain vigilant and report the trolls.

 

 

We'll just stop beating around the bush and assume you mean me. Let's address this. I am not a troll - I meant every word I said. Was I sarcastic? Yup. But I'm like that IRL. Was I bragging? Nope, simply stating my experience, as I pointed out with my handly little disclaimer. Was my post devoid of soloutions? Yes and No. First, I hold that the things you assert require soloutions are not problems to begin with, therefore, my soloution is that there is no soloution. You assert that there is a problem to begin with - something I do not believe to be true - and that your assertion is beyond debate, set in stone, absolute fact. At least, in regard to the procs and KD. Is the Rhino used by early players as a crutch? Yup! I even said so in my post. Right there, fourth subsection, I think. Even told you why - it is a generalist frame that's good at a bunch of things without a ton of effort, but excelling at nothing. That's appealling to the average casual player. Unless they completely change the Rhino, that won't change - and I really couldn't care less if DE deprives casuals of their favorite frame. Now, I did provide some soloutions to things you percieved as problems - soloutions that already exist in the meta - damage removal over damage absorbtion - the idea of taking potential nuissanaces off the field before they become nuissances. If you leave an AWPer on the field in CS, you're gonna get AWP'd. If you let someone get killstreaks in whatever COD flavor of the year is popular, they're gonna get super weapons. If you leave toxin/kd targets on the field, you're gonna get toxin'd or kd'd.

 

I really, really don't want to be more powerful than I am now, the game's easy enough as it is.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Sizer

[SIDESTRE4M]

Just letting everyone who has supported this discussion for improved game balance and dodging/blocking that I appreciate your support. But most importantly, this will largely help newbies if it is considered and implemented in future updates.

I also strongly urge everyone to report the trolls. Anyone who says "git gud" or "lol ur bad", or any toxic/4channic posts should be ignored and reported. You can tell which posts are obvious trolling with these rules of thumb:

-Is the post highly toxic, insulting, and written in a "4channic" style?

-Does the post start off on the (usually incorrect) basis that whoever it's addressed to is an idiot, a noob, has no skill, or otherwise bad at the game? Is the post written in a manner designed to insult the intelligence of its intended recipient?

-Is the post completely devoid of any solutions (on how to fix the game mechanics) or help (advice on how to "stop being a noob and git gud")?

-Does the post include a lot of bragging (for example: "I have no problems dodging these, you're just bad" or "these enemies aren't giving me any problems because I know how to dodge"), with no actual proof that these braggarts are anywhere near as good as they claim?

Any post that meets at least 2 of conditions should be promptly reported. I can't spend my entire day watching this discussion and reporting every troll, and I call on everyone who wants to see Warframe improved to remain vigilant and report the trolls.

 

So you assume there is a problem because you perceive it as one and others do, too?

 

Except the Scorpions, Ancients and Rollers, nearly all units providing Kockdowns are slow.

So the solution is taking them out first and not let them surprise you. That means you don't stand on a spot too long without knowing what's behind. You don't take sharp corners where you can't see if there is a CC-unit waiting there to surprise you.

 

The hooks from Ancients and Scorpions are a bit trickier, I admit that.

Shockwave moas can corner you sometimes but they telegraph their knockdowns very well.

Those Anti Moas are annoying as hell and they can easily surprise.

 

Most problems are related to positioning of the player and movement.

However if you get overrun, then it's another problem.

 

Yes, this game and especially Grineer seem to have a lot of knockdowns, but they mostly punish the careless players and those with static movements.

I won't say, I don't get knocked down at all, that wouldn't be true. However I perceive it not as much of a problem, as it still requires a bit tactical movement and handling.

Edited September 21, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[dashashou]

at this point  speed + iron skin - to avoid  killer CC- and proc effects are worth there weight in silver or gold  ;) 

[UnknownDeath666]

i cant even agree with this cause in the endurance mode for Gate Crashers rhino was vital but i do think his iron skin needs to have a duration again. Also why would rhino be every where he is from the second boss in the game so the difficulty of getting him is so simple. And all i can say is look for the signs for heavy gunners before the do the knock down i know that experienced players can tell and from that single movement even on a squishy frame you can dodge roll out of the way or right into range to melee as long as your timing is right. 

[RealPandemonium]

Yeah, it's a symptom of people being lazy and ignoring game fundamentals with the EZmode frame.  

[Wurdyburd]

I don't think it's as much people being lazy as being efficient.

This game, and other shooters, are largely about numbers. Which numbers are bigger, how many numbers you can get in the least amount of time, etc. You wouldn't use a Braton in T4 Defence because it's not efficient enough, but nobody calls you out for not having the skill to use one at that tier. Oberon is a super-anti-proc now with his newest update, but nobody calls him out on easymode-ing through procs, which are a mechanic in the game.

Rhino just happens to be too good, at too many things. Players who spend their entire Warframe experience seeking out the gun that does higher damage, the more sustainable mod build, and the frame that prevents them from dying the most and also deals good damage will naturally gravitate towards Rhino. It's basically what the game teaches us to do.