"rhinos Everywhere" Is A Symptom, Not The Problem

[Azawarau]

I don't think it's as much people being lazy as being efficient.

This game, and other shooters, are largely about numbers. Which numbers are bigger, how many numbers you can get in the least amount of time, etc. You wouldn't use a Braton in T4 Defence because it's not efficient enough, but nobody calls you out for not having the skill to use one at that tier. Oberon is a super-anti-proc now with his newest update, but nobody calls him out on easymode-ing through procs, which are a mechanic in the game.

Rhino just happens to be too good, at too many things. Players who spend their entire Warframe experience seeking out the gun that does higher damage, the more sustainable mod build, and the frame that prevents them from dying the most and also deals good damage will naturally gravitate towards Rhino. It's basically what the game teaches us to do.

Theres a difference between being good,being too good, and being broken

 

Iron skin wouldnt be as much of an issue if it didnt ignore most everything

 

Knockdowns of any kind

 

Procs

 

Traps

 

Damage

 

You can literally ignore every game mechanic in a sort of temporary god mode for the entire game

 

In end game it balances out somewhat but its early and mid game gives rise to players that define a bad meta and set a bad standard for other frames to follow by blaming the skills they never developed on the game rather than the crutch they had relied on for so long

 

This is why there are bad rhinos,players asking for invi,players who think knockdown or shield bypassing procs are broken despite min maxing for offense, players who think endless scaling is ok

 

We need to stop this already

Edited October 1, 2014 by Azawarau

[MajorUrsine]

Cheap status procs and knockdowns i agree with, but the rest is just people wanting to go on easy mode.

the thing is, rhino isn't necessary, he's just an easy mode frame.

rhino isn't a problem, nor a symptom, but rather a mentality.

in every video game there is always an "easy mode" character/weapon/mechanic/ETC

i can bring up a few examples:

- Master Yi (LoL): high damage, low skill cap, very easy to use

- Mega Blaziken (Competitive pokemon play): spam protect, get SUPER fast, K.O everything.

- Cheats in games in general

- Easy to use classes in RPG's

- Heavy (TF2)

- Meta Knight from smash bro's (i believe, i'm new to the franchise, but that is what i've heard)

 

In other words, it's not the games fault, but it's just people in general, not just the community, but humans themselves. people just want an easy way out, and Rhino is the way to do it in this game. the best solution is to try to level the playing field as much as possible, make Rhino's OPness less rewarding (fun-wise) and just simply try to not mind the fact. again, Rhino is a mentality, not a symptom.

[RealPandemonium]

I don't think it's as much people being lazy as being efficient.

Yeah, bad/lazy players need to ignore game mechanics to efficiently clear missions.  These people don't care about Warframe's gameplay; they just want to have THE BEST BUILD and the latest gear.  That's fine, but they shouldn't expect DE to cater gameplay to their tastes.  That's why I'm OK with Rhino/Nova/Loki/etc being available for them so that they can accomplish their goals at leisure without mucking up the balance of the rest of the options available to the player.  (The only problem with this is when those players don't take the hint and cry that every other frame is unplayable and "COMPLETE S#&$".)

 

The OP is saying that the game is too hard; it's not, and making the game a snoozefest or making every frame EZmode would be terrible.  

[Someguy316]

Aside from the dodging / control issue from #1, I agree that the knockdowns are excessive in the game. The one that annoys me the most is the homing rockets; bad enough that they can do really sharp turns but the knockdown range is ridiculous like the Napalm fire hitboxes. The Warframes' speed thing is an issue I doubt will be fixed anytime soon; I'd rather they got rid off the 30% movement speed mods or merge them.

[Cyberspace100]

To many people in this game get angry when they have their GOD MODE reduced.bleed proc's and poison effect cause player to play differently and utilize cover and enemy weakness instead of face taking damage and wondering why they die.

 

I suggest you "LIMIT" iron skin and hysteria

 

When iron skin is active rhinos movment and melee attack speed are slowed substantually. He is also more vulnerable to bleed procs which last for 8 seconds while iron skin is active. Other than that he is still invincible. 

 

Valkyr's hysteria reduce the damage she takes by 80%. She cannot use her other ablilites while in hysteria.

 

Arcane helmets should be removed and put in a badge for each warframe that you obtain when that warframe reaches level 30.

 

Rhino's will decreas and Valkyr's will have to use another ability. 

[SIDESTRE4M]

Cheap status procs and knockdowns i agree with, but the rest is just people wanting to go on easy mode.

the thing is, rhino isn't necessary, he's just an easy mode frame.

rhino isn't a problem, nor a symptom, but rather a mentality.

in every video game there is always an "easy mode" character/weapon/mechanic/ETC

i can bring up a few examples:

- Master Yi (LoL): high damage, low skill cap, very easy to use

- Mega Blaziken (Competitive pokemon play): spam protect, get SUPER fast, K.O everything.

- Cheats in games in general

- Easy to use classes in RPG's

- Heavy (TF2)

- Meta Knight from smash bro's (i believe, i'm new to the franchise, but that is what i've heard)

 

In other words, it's not the games fault, but it's just people in general, not just the community, but humans themselves. people just want an easy way out, and Rhino is the way to do it in this game. the best solution is to try to level the playing field as much as possible, make Rhino's OPness less rewarding (fun-wise) and just simply try to not mind the fact. again, Rhino is a mentality, not a symptom.

 

That's true.

 

Every game has it. A weapon, a class or a set of abilities that are the easy choice and thus catering to a large group of people.

 

Why do you always have more damage dealers in a mmo than healers or tanks? Because it's harder to play and that's not fun for everyone.

 

So here we have it. Rhino is this choice. Boltor Prime is this choice. Early accessible and low MR.

 

Surprise? No. Problem? Maybe.

 

Can I play a Rhino anymore? No. I automatically feel like noob, like mainstream. I don't even dare to use Boltor Prime anymore.

 

Is gimping ourselves a solution? No. Does it feel better? Yes.

 

And I don't even think Boltor Prime is that OP. I think I can destroy midgame with a lot of weapons. Try out an 6 star-amprex in midgame and see what happens if one is fast enough.

 

[Azawarau]

That's true.

 

Every game has it. A weapon, a class or a set of abilities that are the easy choice and thus catering to a large group of people.

 

Why do you always have more damage dealers in a mmo than healers or tanks? Because it's harder to play and that's not fun for everyone.

 

So here we have it. Rhino is this choice. Boltor Prime is this choice. Early accessible and low MR.

 

Surprise? No. Problem? Maybe.

 

Can I play a Rhino anymore? No. I automatically feel like noob, like mainstream. I don't even dare to use Boltor Prime anymore.

 

Is gimping ourselves a solution? No. Does it feel better? Yes.

 

And I don't even think Boltor Prime is that OP. I think I can destroy midgame with a lot of weapons. Try out an 6 star-amprex in midgame and see what happens if one is fast enough.

 

Amprex has a higher risk factor and less ammo efficiency

 

Boltor has....

 

Little to worry about

[Mesyra]

give us a key to press when we see something about to knock us down.

give us a key to press to make us recover faster from knock downs.

give us a key to press to cut tethers from scorpions/ancients.

give us a key to press to block tethers from grabbing us.

 

1/2 the issue would be fixed if we could quick block again, that way we could at least stop our characters from getting knocked down in the first place

[Azawarau]

give us a key to press when we see something about to knock us down.

give us a key to press to make us recover faster from knock downs.

give us a key to press to cut tethers from scorpions/ancients.

give us a key to press to block tethers from grabbing us.

 

1/2 the issue would be fixed if we could quick block again, that way we could at least stop our characters from getting knocked down in the first place

You have a mode for 1 and 2

 

For 3 and 4 you can easily dodge it or roll (double tap shift)

 

Im not against ading knockdown recovery as a button but there are ways to avoid it

[SIDESTRE4M]

That's true.

However I think there are plenty options for me to not chose this forsaken setup.

I don't understand people who like to walk arround like everyone else. It's like the Rhino conclave.

We tried to copter with Vanguard Rhino to farm Sargas Ruk. It was so ridiculous. We flew through the tile sets and just stood before him with Iron Skin laughing at him.

Troll-op in midgame and roflstomper in late game. If that's what people are proud of, then be it.

[inappropriatename5818]

give us a key to press when we see something about to knock us down.

give us a key to press to make us recover faster from knock downs.

give us a key to press to cut tethers from scorpions/ancients.

give us a key to press to block tethers from grabbing us.

 

1/2 the issue would be fixed if we could quick block again, that way we could at least stop our characters from getting knocked down in the first place

 

 

This, the amount of times I see scorpion about to hook me and there's nothing I can do about it is really ridiculous.

[Burns2PvP]

Operation Gate Crash. Rhinos everywhere.

High-level areas. Rhinos everywhere.

Suggestions forum: "Nerf Rhino".

My suggestion: Rhino doesn't need a nerf. Rhino overuse is a symptom of severe game design issues.

--------------

Issue #1: Excessive knockdowns

Knockdowns are way out of hand in the entire game. Every Grineer Heavy unit has them, plus Grineer Scorpions and Shield Lancers. Blast proc = knockdown. Infested Ancients = knockdown + pull. Knockdown every *#@^ing where.

Well, what's the solution? You could take Constitution or Handspring mods.... Handspring is incredibly rare though. You could take Fortitude and get knocked down 80% of the time instead of 100%. You could take Sure Footed, although that's rarer than Handspring and it's never dropped for me.

Despite what a lot of trolls say, dodging isn't a viable option. Warframe has no "double tap to dodge" like in some other FPS games. Warframes are simply unable to accelerate or change direction quickly enough to prevent a knockdown or even a pull. Half the time, the game won't even respond if you hammer your keyboard/controller to dodge. You could block, however that requires you to have your melee weapon out all the time or use Reflex Guard (RNG-dependent).

Your last option is to choose a Warframe with built-in anti-knockdown abilities. Currently, the only Warframes with abilities that prevent knockdown are:

-Trinity (ultimate ability prevents knockdowns and conditions)

-Oberon (immune to knockdown while standing on Hallowed Ground)

-Valkyr (ultimate ability makes you invulnerable)

-Rhino (Iron Skin prevents knockdowns and conditions)

---------------

Issue #2: Abusive RNG status effects and damage through shields

Recent updates have continued to further break game balance with more shield-ignoring poison damage while doing nothing to fix bleed procs and other crap. If you're using one of the frames mentioned above, you can mostly ignore these effects. This doesn't mean that those frames are overpowered, it just means that the game is broken.

---------------

Issue #3: Environment effects that diminish shields.

Almost every update since U10 has power creeped enemy damage up. The problem: Warframe shields are hard-capped through Redirection rank.

But it gets worse: Bad RNG on any map means that you have half shields for the entire instance. The recent Gate-Crash event can decrease your shields down to 20%. Going for corrupted mods and holding a Decaying key? Nearly as bad.

Just stop with the shield-reducing effects. It's a heavy-duty nerf bat in the face to every frame that isn't Rhino or Valkyr.

---------------

Issue #4: Warframes are slow

Ever heard of Arcane Vanguard Helmets? They give a large movement buff with a minimal power decrease. They are also the main reason why stat changes on helmets were discontinued about half a year ago. (typical lazy non-solution, ignore the problem and make the game even more broken instead of balancing the helmets) The result is that older players can keep their stats and newer players get none.

(On an unrelated note, I mainly use Rhino Prime with an Arcane Vanguard Helmet, and I would be fine with decreasing the movement buff to 15% if it meant that helms with stats would return and be available to everyone in perpetuity. Yes, you heard me right, if it means that everyone will be able to enjoy helms with stats, I'm willing to take a significant nerf for balance purposes)

---------------

So why Rhino?

Rhino has a good balance of offensive, defensive, and support abilities - no "garbage" skills.

-Trinity has low armor, average health/shields, and no offensive abilities. Enemies glitched into the wall? you're stuck. Trinity also keeps getting nerfed and no longer has proper invulnerability, so shield-diminishing effects can be problematic. Trinity also moves at normal (aka slow) speed.

-Oberon is very good with the recent buffs, however the problem with using Hallowed Ground defensively is that you have to stand in it. If you (or your team) are moving around quickly (see also: any mission except defense), you may as well bring Constitution or Handspring... or Rhino. Also note that Oberon has no protection against shield-diminishing effects. Oberon is also slow.

-Valkyr's invincibility scales to any level and it's easy to avoid taking damage due to enemies in range. However, it also locks you into using melee attacks only for its duration. Fighting against flying enemies? you're stuck. Valkyr is faster than average but slower than a properly geared Rhino.

Conclusion: of the frames that can negate these broken game mechanics, Rhino is the most balanced, mobile, and solid of them (except at ridiculously high levels where Valkyr might be superior)

---------------

So: How to fix "Rhinos Everywhere"?

Fix the problems that force everyone to use Rhinos.

-Increase frames' base movement speed.

-Nerf or remove shield-ignoring damage and abusive status procs

-Nerf knockdowns. IMO, knockdowns and stuns in FPS or TPS games should be rare and recovery from knockdowns and stuns should be quick.

-Remove unavoidable and uncounterable shield-impairing effects. (An interesting variation could be enemies that can lob a cryo projectile that impairs your shields to half for a short amount of time).

 

 gotta say, Later on I only see 1 or 2 rhinos per day after 12 hours of gaming kind of thing. I think they are underused with the late game community.

[fishworshipper]

I agree with the problems, but not the solutions. We should be approaching them from the other side and letting players intelligently counter these things instead of saying "too hard, pls remove"

Problem with your thinking is: We already have intelligent ways to solve these issues. One example, just off the top of my head: Use Rhino. Problem solved before it even became a problem.

[LukeAura]

You have a mode for 1 and 2

 

For 3 and 4 you can easily dodge it or roll (double tap shift)

I don't know if I really count the roll as a suitable dodge. It works, but the pinky isn't exactly the best quick and precise reaction finger. 

 

[vaugahn]

Problem with your thinking is: We already have intelligent ways to solve these issues. One example, just off the top of my head: Use Rhino. Problem solved before it even became a problem.

 

I'd hardly call that intelligent. 

[fishworshipper]

I'd hardly call that intelligent.

I can practically guarantee that people will solve the problem pre-emptively rather than bother with QTE's.

[Kruglov]

Knockdown would be fine if we could fire our guns and use our warframe powers during it.

 

Like, ok, so my space ninja can fire his/her rifle and use powers while:

 

- backflipping

- frontflipping

- spinning through the air like world's angriest frisbee

- sliding down a wall

- running up a wall

- running full speed while hunched over

- running parallel to a wall and defying gravity

- sliding on my knees

- spinning across the floor

 

 

But if I get knocked on my &#!, I'm suddenly helpless.

Why? Why my &#!? Do the Tenno keep their brains in their &#!?

So if I fall on my badonkadonk it's like experiencing massive head trauma turning me into a giant helpless fetus basically.

Do the tenno sit on icepacks when they get headaches?

Does the Lotus scratch her bum while she comes with new weapon concepts?

How does Vauban keep his massive hyperintelligent buttox contained within his suit when he is clearly the smartest Tenno?

 

THESE
ARE
THE
QUESTIONS

[Azawarau]

 the pinky isn't exactly the best quick and precise reaction finger. 

 

I disagree ;)

 

Give rolling a try

 

Its really helpful

[merryfistmas]

I don't know if I really count the roll as a suitable dodge. It works, but the pinky isn't exactly the best quick and precise reaction finger. 

 

It works great for me, I think it's just a muscle memory thing. If you use your pinky enough, it will be a precise reaction finger.

[LukeAura]

I disagree ;)

 

Give rolling a try

 

Its really helpful

I'm in no doubt rolling can be helpful. Just that it would work better and more valuable if keyed to a better button. People might actually use it then. 

There's probably a reason Dark Souls uses the space bar for rolls located directly underneath the resting position for the thumb. 

 

[Reaver_X]

Warframes have a hard time dodging?....hmmm

 

 

mobility 2.0? o:

[RealPandemonium]

This, the amount of times I see scorpion about to hook me and there's nothing I can do about it is really ridiculous.

The number of times I see a scorpion about to hook me and I dodge it on reaction is... most times.

[Naftal]

This, the amount of times I see scorpion about to hook me and there's nothing I can do about it is really ridiculous.

How does this work? What are these situations exactly?

 

I don't remember any situation where I got hooked where it wasn't my fault.

[UnknownDeath666]

So with this new update i had noticed that my iron skin is double procing without me having to cast it a second time. So i just wanted to say that for all the rhino users it still needs a bit of love