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Why In Lotus' Name Are The Daggers So Slow?


Lekkur
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Revamping Pointed Wind

 

How about a revamp of all daggers and not just one stance. Faster attack speed and default animations that don't throw you past your target 50% of the time would be a good start. Fast and controlled strikes more oriented to quickly and cleanly taking down a single target like a Heavy unit (leave the CC attack styles to the 2h weapons).

 

Maybe even make each attack a multi-hit, sorta like the Fang daggers. That would be a great mechanic for building up a combo-counter quickly.

Edited by Paradoxbomb
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It's a bit of an inversion from the old ways. Before damage 2.0 a low number meant they were slow. After 2.0 a low number means melee is fast.

NO. Sorry to burst your bubble. It does not.

The higher a number, the faster a melee still. In case you hadn't noticed, scoiliac, with 1.3, is a lot faster then atterax, with .9

 

 

OK, to give a bit more explaniation. The numbers being higher are better, but each weapon will be affected differently.

Edited by Warriorrogue
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NO. Sorry to burst your bubble. It does not.

The higher a number, the faster a melee still. In case you hadn't noticed, scoiliac, with 1.3, is a lot faster then atterax, with .9

he's not completely wrong practically to, with the same attack speed the jat kittag is a lot slower than the scoliac, basicallly some anymations are so horrible and slow like  pointed wind as example but also both hammer stances and crimson dervish (it has a 300% damage boost i know but the animation itself is horrible ) have pretty terrible animations

Edited by bl4ckhunter
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lets forget about numbers for a moment. it is clear that melee classes have their own attack speed numbers. and yes, revamping pointed wind is the way to go, since it is the 1 stance that makes daggers so slow. if that doesnt feel enough, then i guess scott would have to step in and review daggers as a whole. but there is not point in changing all daggers when a simple stance buff could suffice. change->test->review->decide.

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Maybe even make each attack a multi-hit, sorta like the Fang daggers. That would be a great mechanic for building up a combo-counter quickly.

 

Daggers already have that. I don't know if it builds the combo counter, but they all hit more than once on a swing.

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NO. Sorry to burst your bubble. It does not.

The higher a number, the faster a melee still. In case you hadn't noticed, scoiliac, with 1.3, is a lot faster then atterax, with .9

 

Good to know, thanks. I guess I never really use heavy melee weapons so I didn't realize that was the case.

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If the revamped pointed wind stance's attacks include lots of hits, the slow attack rate will look and feel very fast as each 'attack' will be animated as several fast attacks.

 

This is the only way a dagger is ever going to seem balanced. It wouldn't make sense give it damage on par with a medium sized fast weapon or any huge arc like a larger weapon and you can't expect the player to get carpel tunnel doing 38 step combos on silly super fast attack rate to make up the difference. Slow attack rate -> multi-hit like a boss. Same principle as multishot being thought of as a damage mod. It will still make the dagger feel really fast if they do it well and it will create their own statistical niche for players to explore.

Edited by VKhaun
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Even if they leave sheev at that ungodly low attack speed, if they gave it a really high crit chance that would definitely make up for it and bring a new reason to use daggers, such that you essentially could have almost 100% crit with mods 

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Honestly, they need to revamp MOST of the stances. DE needs to sit down and re-evaluate what stances are intended to be heavy stances, and which ones are light stances. Crimson Dirvish for example has it's fabled 300% damage increase attack, but equipping it makes your sword much too slow. Compared to the way easier found Iron Phoenix, your DPS goes through the roof because the damage from landing more hits overpowers even the 300% chain-link.

 

Ultimately, since this game REVOLVES around the Speed x Damage = Winning equation, it's infuriating to equip a stance intended to make the weapon better, only for it to become slower, with broken mobility. All those months concepting and reconcepting Melee 2.0 didn't seem to help some of the basic design foundations that the system needed.

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Pointed Wind really needs a revamp. There's no reason for it to slow down daggers so much when Homing Fang is sitting there turning daggers into tornadoes of pain.

 

Amen.  Homing Fang (a stance for which NO DAGGER HAS A MATCHING POLARITY FOR) is amazing for it's rapid attacks and movement, while Pointed Wind has one slow-as-hell combo who's only upside is that it can hit enemies hanging in the air.  And I think one of Homing Fang's combos can do that too.

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Honestly, they need to revamp MOST of the stances. DE needs to sit down and re-evaluate what stances are intended to be heavy stances, and which ones are light stances. Crimson Dirvish for example has it's fabled 300% damage increase attack, but equipping it makes your sword much too slow. Compared to the way easier found Iron Phoenix, your DPS goes through the roof because the damage from landing more hits overpowers even the 300% chain-link.

 

Ultimately, since this game REVOLVES around the Speed x Damage = Winning equation, it's infuriating to equip a stance intended to make the weapon better, only for it to become slower, with broken mobility. All those months concepting and reconcepting Melee 2.0 didn't seem to help some of the basic design foundations that the system needed.

 The Crimson Dervish vs. Iron Phoenix is supposed to work that way.  When you use a weapon like the Dakra Prime, you get single attacks that hit harder than the Dragon Nikana.  The idea is that hitting those three times at 300% damage should be enough to kill anyone that close to you.

 

Iron Phoenix has longer combos, but if your enemy doesn't die in short order, they might very well take you apart (and Iron Phoenix's combo isn't terribly fast either)

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 The Crimson Dervish vs. Iron Phoenix is supposed to work that way.  When you use a weapon like the Dakra Prime, you get single attacks that hit harder than the Dragon Nikana.  The idea is that hitting those three times at 300% damage should be enough to kill anyone that close to you.

 

Iron Phoenix has longer combos, but if your enemy doesn't die in short order, they might very well take you apart (and Iron Phoenix's combo isn't terribly fast either)

 

I mean more that the stances need to be... better planned, I guess? Many of the stances have had combos added to them that don't feel like they belong in it's theme, like how Cleaving Whirlwind had the Sundered Tusk combo added to it. The entire combo feels weird for such a giant sword like the Galatine, the weapon it's supposed to be for.

It's  just unfortunate that so much work has been done on the stances already, and that they aren't more cohesive. It's primarily just "well we have a new combo let's slap it on that stance because that's what fits it the best", rather than designing a combo, FOR the stance.

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Pointed Wind really needs a revamp. There's no reason for it to slow down daggers so much when Homing Fang is sitting there turning daggers into tornadoes of pain.

this....Pointed wind make every daggers feel like holding a bloody Scindo (hek...even Scindo can swing faster than that)

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i call bandaid, the daggers themselves need to be overhauled for the same reason heavy weapons do.

 

I don't think it's fair to label it a bandaid, when the two main problems with daggers are that the stances are too slow, and that their hit boxes are too small (they should certainly be short ranged, but they still need to be large enough to reliably hit something standing in front of you).

 

So addressing Pointed Wind would go a ways toward solving half of the problem (well, a quarter of it anyway, Homing Fang has some issues too, but as has been mentioned before in the thread, most stances have some issues with fitting into the game's pace of combat). 

 

 

 

But annoyingly slippery and narrow, leading to wonder if you've hit anything at all.

 

Part of the problem with that seems to be related to the size of the frame you're using, the attacks are much easier to land with a smaller frame (Mirage seems to be the best). They also vary a bit with the size of the dagger, the Karyst has an extra four inches or so on the Sheev, and that seems to make a fair bit of a difference.

 

Obviously we shouldn't be having to use a specific frame to make a whole class of weapons work, but if you have them both, I would recommend trying the Karyst with Mirage. That combination seems to be able to reliably hit Grineer and Corpus without using Reach, once you get used to the quick attack hitbox (it's sort of in front of you and a little to the right).

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