I'm Sick Of Rng And Drop Table Dilutes

[Lakitel]

 They should make it pseudo random. For the items that you don't get, all the other droppable items get an increased chance of dropping. Once it drops, the chance would be reset to its original amount.

 

 The amount the chance increases can also scale depending on the rarity of the item.

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

 They should make it pseudo random. For the items that you don't get, all the other droppable items get an increased chance of dropping. Once it drops, the chance would be reset to its original amount.

 

 The amount the chance increases can also scale depending on the rarity of the item.

This.

[Hieulelam]

after burning 30+ t1 capture key and 11 t3 exterminate key, i started noticing a pattern. it seem the void drops function in the same way as the mods drop from enemies, meaning there are common, uncommon and rare items.

 

i will take my example from t1 capture, there are a total of 7 items in the t1 capture reward pool ( t1 defense, t2 capture, forma bp, boar prime receiver, lex prime receiver, paris prime grip, hikou prime pouch)

 

the rarity is as of the following:

common: t1 defense key, t2 capture key, boar prime receiver

uncommon: forma bp

rare: lex prime receiver, paris prime grip, hikou prime pouch

 

on average of spending 5-8 keys, i would get one of the rare items, then it would revert back to rewarding a common item the next round with forma bp sprinkle in every here and then. of course, you can get 2 rare item in a row just as you can get 2 rare mods drop in a row but it is EXTREMELY rare.

 

to sum all of this up, this theory blow the assumption that all item have equal drop chance all of the water and the way the drop table actually function is that there is common, uncommon and rare just like mod drop with drop chance assign differently.

[Tyrarl]

Nah, that's pretty much exactly how it would be. It'd just be up to DE to make the Void Coin cost of items in the Void Market reasonable. We can trust them to set reasonable prices.

 

Judging by how Token Reward Systems are designed in other games, we'd end up with a system that caps our "Void Coins" on a daily or weekly basis to just below what the second lowest tier of rewards would be. I mean, look at World of Warcraft. Valor caps at 1000 per week. What are the (usual) reward levels? 825 points, 1155 points, and 1485 points. For one item. Considering this kind of "energy limitation" (See: Extra Credits video on that) on Freemium games is pretty much industry standard, I'm more scared of the Token System than RNGesus.

[(PSN)atpbx]

I'm farming T3MD the whole day just for the Scindo Prime Blade.

We got loads of forma blueprints,Boar Prime Blueprints, Reaper Prime Blueprints and Boltor Prime Blueprints. There are Ember Prime Systems Blueprints and Boar Prime Barrel in addition to the already named parts in the drop table, but we didn't see a single Ember or Barrel part (and of course no Scindo Blade).

This is absolutely ridiculous. Just add the damn token system the community is asking for.

RNG is NEVER a solution, yet DE uses it extensively for everything.

And don't say "They gotta make money somehow". They are. Loads. This is just annoying for everyone.

/rant

How do you guys feel about this?

It still baffles me how they can release events that have fixed rewards, see how much the player base loves having a fixed goal and something to aim for, and still leave prime drop tables as screwed as they are.

I mean you could change the missions so that parts were rewarded for doing certain things, a certain amount of kills, a certain amount of minutes in match, a certain amount of head shots etc etc etc.

Make it challenging, make it enjoyable, make it impossible to do in a couple of runs, ANYTHING other than sitting in a mission wasting 30 minutes of your life not really enjoying what you are doing for a insignificant chance of getting the reward you want.

Edited September 26, 2014 by (PS4)atpbx

[WhisperByte]

The problem is NOT the dilution. On average there are 5 Prime rewards per each drop table/cycle. If the chances of receiving each item was 1/5 per items, one would expect to get all the items in about 10 runs. However, it seems like some items have a drop chance of 50% and some have as low as 1-5%.

The problem IS drop table dilution. At least partially. Thing is, there are currently several prime parts/bps duplicated in different Void missions. Instead of replacing the duplicates DE just added more prime parts to the drop tables thus diluting them even more

[(PSN)Gilead09]

Token system is "Hey, you beat T1 Exterminate! Here's 5 Void Coins! Go spend these in the Void Market to buy Prime gear!"

 

Ok, I get it. But why create new currency "token", when we have enough resource types already?

 

Why just don't DE allow to buy any prime part/bp you want from market for a fixed price. Let's say 2 million credits each? Some would love to buy their BO Prime handle, finally. And DE would sell credit boosters this way.

 

More - it would finally make sense to purchase Prime Accessories Pack for veterans! They would get their credit boosters that will allow them to gather credits faster (and have those horribly high amount of credits for parts that are hard to get).

Edited September 26, 2014 by (PS4)Gilead09

[(PSN)atpbx]

Judging by how Token Reward Systems are designed in other games, we'd end up with a system that caps our "Void Coins" on a daily or weekly basis to just below what the second lowest tier of rewards would be. I mean, look at World of Warcraft. Valor caps at 1000 per week. What are the (usual) reward levels? 825 points, 1155 points, and 1485 points. For one item. Considering this kind of "energy limitation" (See: Extra Credits video on that) on Freemium games is pretty much industry standard, I'm more scared of the Token System than RNGesus.

And he sad thing is, is none of things really need to exist if the game design was better.

Limiting access is just so much easier and cheaper than designing interesting content which is why it exists.

[(PSN)Gilead09]

 They should make it pseudo random. For the items that you don't get, all the other droppable items get an increased chance of dropping. Once it drops, the chance would be reset to its original amount.

 

 The amount the chance increases can also scale depending on the rarity of the item.

 

Yeah, but there are 4 players in the squad and each and every one gets the same reward. How are you supposed to calculate chances of dropping single item for 4 players at once?

[(PSN)atpbx]

Yeah, but there are 4 players in the squad and each and every one gets the same reward. How are you supposed to calculate chances of dropping single item for 4 players at once?

You don't.

You solve the problem of different rewards for different people by having the reward being the mission select.

You can then offer the choice of doing the mission on the basis of RNG with PUGs, or you can recruit in chat for a couple of like minded people to attack a challenge for a certain part.

Those who already have the part can choose a resource or credits as an alternative reward to encourage replayability.

Edited September 26, 2014 by (PS4)atpbx

[HitPointPredator]

Yeah, but there are 4 players in the squad and each and every one gets the same reward. How are you supposed to calculate chances of dropping single item for 4 players at once?

 

You let the system do some math and base the overall chance percentage per reward after the combined chances of players. 

[HuzzelMuzzel]

Found this in another thread:

 

 

This two goes with that:

 

I think DE have to change something for the long run

[Tyrarl]

And he sad thing is, is none of things really need to exist if the game design was better.

Limiting access is just so much easier and cheaper than designing interesting content which is why it exists.

 

You know, I think you hit the nail on the head with one of your earlier posts about how they could make things rewarding by putting in smaller challenges for each mission. I know of at least one game that rewards player persistence in some instances,

 

In Dungeons and Dragons Online, there is a quest called Framework that has you trying to kill a Minotaur Chieftain while planting evidence to frame a Medusa. The easiest way to do this is to use a ballista (or some fancy footwork) to launch yourself into the chieftain's chambers and take him by surprise, thus bypassing the entire minotaur town. All you have to do is kill the chief, turn one minotaur to stone, then you're done.

 

You get ONE chest for this, mind you.

 

However, players can choose another path: You can wipe out the minotaur village instead. If you kill every single last minotaur, you are awarded with two bonus chests. If you kill an Ogre Mage and an Orc ambassador, you also get an additional chest for each of those, as well. But that's not all, the minotaur also have a number of VIPs throughout the village, with at least three guaranteed to spawn and each one granting a chest of loot.

 

All of this is in addition to the experience rewards you get for smashing all the barrels, disarming all the traps, killing all the minotaur, and, if you're skilled, never dying, all of which are part and parcel of the core game.

 

Warframe has already done something like this. The Grineer Caches in Gate Crash are a perfect example of forcing people to go out of their way to search for something that can be potentially rewarding instead of blitzing through the map like a Left4Dead player. DE could take that a step further and add Grineer/Corpus VIPs (aka, minibosses) randomly into maps to give players a chance at bonus loot, if they feel like they can handle the enemy. This would necessitate making enemies sufficiently powerful enough to deter people who may not be confident in their equipment load out, or who just want to get to the end as fast as possible.

 

Capturing a VIP or completing a Sabotage/Deception within a time limit could reward extras... while failing to do so could spawn larger security details to deal with the intruders.

 

There's no reason we can't see about adding optional objectives to maps in the Void and Origin System. The Grineer Caches are a good example. Maybe they could spawn procedurally and the Lotus could notify the players that one has appeared on her sensors. Or perhaps more VIPs like Corrupted Vor could appear. Vor alone is fairly challenging but his rewards for beating him are at least consistent and it feels GOOD taking him down and getting those Toxin mods.

 

TL;DR: You hit the nail on the head with your other post. We can only hope DE one day follows up and does something to reduce the tedium AND make obtaining void rewards more... rewarding without having to add in more currencies. :P

[Sylaenius]

The way the gaming market works now a days, developers don't need to give a S#&$ about actually developing a game, because people will still buy credits, gold, platinum or whatever premium currency bullS#&$ is in a game because everything fun also requires money.

 

Ergo, thier feedback system is in thier wallet. If you want DE to actually read this forum and do more than have DE Steve tell you "The mod card system is fiiine. Gameplay is fiiine. We think the game is where it should be!" in a livestream, don't buy platinum. Don't buy Prime Access. Go find another game to play that doesn't squeeze you for money (Good @(*()$ luck) and wait until they get thier S#&$ together.

 

The sad thing is, if they didn't take the cash grab method to 'game design', I would buy platinum simply because they didn't. Not even because I needed it, or wanted it. I would pay them for not grubbing for my goddamn money.

[Loswaith]

That would be average of 182 runs to get the item. That's crazy!

Actually after 182 runs you only have about a 56% chance to have gained atleast one of an item with a 0.55% chance to drop.

After about 500 tries you are at about 90% chance to have gained at least one item.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Loswaith

[Airut]

The problem IS drop table dilution. At least partially. Thing is, there are currently several prime parts/bps duplicated in different Void missions. Instead of replacing the duplicates DE just added more prime parts to the drop tables thus diluting them even more

 

Did you even read what I posted? It seems that you didn't. If every item had an equal chance of being dropped, there would be no problem.

Actually after 182 runs you only have about a 66% chance to have gained atleast one of an item with a 0.55% chance to drop.

After about 500 tries you are at about 90% chance to have gained at least one item.

 

That is why I said AVERAGE. Y u no read?

Edited September 26, 2014 by Airut

[Qloshae]

I'm farming T3MD the whole day just for the Scindo Prime Blade.

We got loads of forma blueprints,Boar Prime Blueprints, Reaper Prime Blueprints and Boltor Prime Blueprints. There are Ember Prime Systems Blueprints and Boar Prime Barrel in addition to the already named parts in the drop table, but we didn't see a single Ember or Barrel part (and of course no Scindo Blade).

 

 

This is absolutely ridiculous. Just add the damn token system the community is asking for.

 

 

RNG is NEVER a solution, yet DE uses it extensively for everything.

 

And don't say "They gotta make money somehow". They are. Loads. This is just annoying for everyone.

 

/rant

 

 

How do you guys feel about this?

Grinding is a core mechanic in Warframe, everything is built to satisfy this mechanic. This mechanic is Warframe in a way.

RNG increases the grinding time and as such the game time until you got all the gear. Therefor, RNG is the life force of Warframe.

Imagine a Warframe where you knew what you would get by doing a certain task and it was 100% certain that you would get that item. How many days would you play Warframe? Of course, you would still have core mechanics like shooting, but grinding is still more important for the longevity of the game.

[Grulos]

Grinding is a core mechanic in Warframe, everything is built to satisfy this mechanic. This mechanic is Warframe in a way.

RNG increases the grinding time and as such the game time until you got all the gear. Therefor, RNG is the life force of Warframe.

Imagine a Warframe where you knew what you would get by doing a certain task and it was 100% certain that you would get that item. How many days would you play Warframe? Of course, you would still have core mechanics like shooting, but grinding is still more important for the longevity of the game.

You know, if there were real challenges I have to do to get a guaranteed reward, (and not like the current missions, these are all linear and boring, I mean like those quests, those are cool).

DE has to design them in the first place. Which they won't, because, you know, they actually have to put thoughts into that.

 

RNG removes the need for actual game design by just adding percentages of drops, without a pseudo randomness, into a single mission.

 

 

Imagine a Waframe, where you always get the same reward out of a large pool of unequal distributed drop chances. You end up having 50 parts of the most common one and nothing else. This is the current state.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Grulos

[Qloshae]

You know, if there were real challenges I have to do to get a guaranteed reward, (and not like the current missions, these are all linear and boring, I mean like those quests, those are cool).

DE has to design them in the first place. Which they won't, because, you know, they actually have to put thoughts into that.

 

RNG removes the need for actual game design by just adding percentages of drops, without a pseudo randomness, into a single mission.

 

 

Imagine a Waframe, where you always get the same reward out of a large pool of unequal distributed drop chances. You end up having 50 parts of the most common one and nothing else. This is the current state.

Problem is again guraranteed reward.

This current system with RNG forces you to play more. Yes, I know it is frustrating, I spent 3 entire days farming for an egg and then when I had bought a few kubrows, I kept finding them. But it is as you pointed out a cheap way to guarantee that people keep playing.

I would like to know tho, are you a game designer? Do you have any education in game design?

[Otaiken]

It's all been suggested. Tokens, weighted RNG, dismantling, etc.

 

Belive me, DE is well aware of the alternatives. They keep this system because it's frustrating, exploitative, gambling PoS that's supposed to wringle every last cent out of people.

 

I mean.. FFS it's a damn RNG skinner box. Like a rat in a cage wailing on a switch in a mad hope that it gets its treat.. no rhyme or reason, just complete randomness and chaos... just keep doing that little rat, one day.. maybe. I won't be that rat.. DE can take its prime great and stuff it right up their collective asses. And I won't buy any of that stuff either, because I won't support this S#&$.

 

I guess I'm one of the very rare non-minmaxer people that are not worried about wooing everyone with so much bling in a f2p game? And hence not a focus group for DE, so nothing I say will change anything as long as those rats keep pressing that switch. And they do, and nothing changes.

 

Well, perhaps not all of DE is responsible for this. I would like to know who is though... who is so much for this system. Is it Sheldon? Or somebody else? Well, to whomever it is: "Your system is bad and wrong." Also.. "REDACTED"

Edited September 26, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Sylaenius]

Problem is again guraranteed reward.

This current system with RNG forces you to play more. Yes, I know it is frustrating, I spent 3 entire days farming for an egg and then when I had bought a few kubrows, I kept finding them. But it is as you pointed out a cheap way to guarantee that people keep playing.

I would like to know tho, are you a game designer? Do you have any education in game design?

You're argueing for a cheap, lazy and shallow way to keep players in a game. Games are meant to be fun, and used to be designed as such. Artificially increasing playtime by forcing a farmfest is lazy game design, and all you'll get is a boring repetitive pile of crap.

 

The farming method is a perfectly fine mechanic to use in game design, but Warframe is an example of overuse. The entirety of the game, from gameplay, to game modes, to level design, to the mod system hinges on forcing the player to play through the same mission tens to hundreds of times to recieve a comparatively small reward. A Reaper prime doesn't just take a BP, a Blade, a handle, and 10 Orokin Cells. It takes hours and even days of killing Sargas Ruk to get the cells. The game is centered around a chore implemented only to inflate necessary playtime without introducing actual content or adding breadth or depth to things like AI or game modes.

 

To summarize, farming as a mechanic in a game to moderate player growth and make them work for a reward is perfectly fine, I even recommend such a system, however using a farming method sans gameplay and/or adequate reward is lazy, dishonest, and a ripoff.

[SatouJin]

at this point DE has already gone so far as to refuse to field questions or input about RNG and drop tables anymore. their only slimmer of compromise on it was to make the prime parts tradable (band aid method bs). then wash their hands of it. no longer open for discussion. it works the way they want, it's rigged the way they want (everyone knows it - no need to sugar coat it with 'fluxuating algorithm' talk), and are absolutely fielding no more input on the matter no matter how good the idea or how solid the logic (so many spectacular forum posts i've seen that went utterly ignored). this is it. we play this way, or it's game over. i still like the core gameplay enough to painfully cringe away the drop rates and keep going but time will tell how many can do the same and for how long.

[Otaiken]

at this point DE has already gone so far as to refuse to field questions or input about RNG and drop tables anymore. their only slimmer of compromise on it was to make the prime parts tradable (band aid method bs). then wash their hands of it. no longer open for discussion. it works the way they want, it's rigged the way they want (everyone knows it - no need to sugar coat it with 'fluxuating algorithm' talk), and are absolutely fielding no more input on the matter no matter how good the idea or how solid the logic (so many spectacular forum posts i've seen that went utterly ignored). this is it. we play this way, or it's game over. i still like the core gameplay enough to painfully cringe away the drop rates and keep going but time will tell how many can do the same and for how long.

 

Not entirely true... sometimes there was the one Rebecca's post akin to "We're so sooowyyy, we'll never do it again." and people (like the dumbasses they are) just eat it hook line and sinker. Seriously, I like Rebecca too, but there's no need to go mental when she posts something!

[Grulos]

I would like to know tho, are you a game designer? Do you have any education in game design?

No, I'm not.

 

But you don't have to be a game designer or have any education in game design to spot these obvious flaws.

A great YouTube channel for gamedesign is "Extra Credits". They have awesome videos, especially about F2P games!

https://www.youtube.com/user/ExtraCreditz

 

You're argueing for a cheap, lazy and shallow way to keep players in a game. Games are meant to be fun, and used to be designed as such. Artificially increasing playtime by forcing a farmfest is lazy game design, and all you'll get is a boring repetitive pile of crap.

 

The farming method is not perfectly fine as Warframe uses it. It would be MUCH less dull and frustrating, if they would add a pseudo-random RNG, which increases the chance for drops if you do not get them.

 

DE makes it a cheap and lazy, and shallow job to keep players in the game by chosing RNG over game design. So Warframe is, as you said, a forced farmfest, boring and repetitive.

 

 

I do not want to get all primes handed to me, I want to accomplish comething I can feel proud of (like defeating a really strong (strong != a boss who can 1 shot you, that's artificial difficulty)) or doing a cool quest), but grinding is just exhausting. I spent almost 2 days doing only T3MD for a Scindo Prime Blade. The drop table contains 7 items. Out of these 7 items, I only got 4 items repeatedly. But no Boar Prime Barrel, Ember Prime Systems or Scindo Prime Blade. Other players have similar experiences.

 

Also, I never got a single Despair Blueprint from the Stalker, but boatloads of Hate and Dread Blueprints.

 

I'm fine with RNG of resources (not rare ones though, some are too rare, more drop locations would be good, because they drop in much higher quantities and drop more often ), but ALL blueprint parts and mod drops rely extensively on RNG. And RNG is flawed beyond repair.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Grulos

[Derpo]

Nah, that's pretty much exactly how it would be. It'd just be up to DE to make the Void Coin cost of items in the Void Market reasonable. We can trust them to set reasonable prices.

yeah....

wait, what?