I'm Sick Of Rng And Drop Table Dilutes

[Sasquatchias]

I really hope we get a token system or something later on.

 

I have literally been on about 30 T3 Exterminates, and each one what did I get? Anything but the Nyx Prime piece. 

 

I've gotten Mag BPs, Mag Chassis BPs, Sicarus Barrels, even f***in' Forma every single time.

 

I understand that they purposefully lower the drop rates of new prime stuff, but this is getting to be ridiculous.

[Derpo]

No, I'm not.

 

But you don't have to be a game designer or have any education in game design to spot these obvious flaws.

A great YouTube channel for gamedesign is "Extra Credits". They have awesome videos, especially about F2P games!

https://www.youtube.com/user/ExtraCreditz

 

 

The farming method is not perfectly fine as Warframe uses it. It would be MUCH less dull and frustrating, if they would add a pseudo-random RNG, which increases the chance for drops if you do not get them.

 

DE makes it a cheap and lazy, and shallow job to keep players in the game by chosing RNG over game design. So Warframe is, as you said, a forced farmfest, boring and repetitive.

 

 

I do not want to get all primes handed to me, I want to accomplish comething I can feel proud of (like defeating a really strong (strong != a boss who can 1 shot you, that's artificial difficulty)) or doing a cool quest), but grinding is just exhausting. I spent almost 2 days doing only T3MD for a Scindo Prime Blade. The drop table contains 7 items. Out of these 7 items, I only got 4 items repeatedly. But no Boar Prime Barrel, Ember Prime Systems or Scindo Prime Blade. Other players have similar experiences.

 

Also, I never got a single Despair Blueprint from the Stalker, but boatloads of Hate and Dread Blueprints.

 

I'm fine with RNG of resources (not rare ones though, some are too rare, more drop locations would be good, because they drop in much higher quantities and drop more often ), but ALL blueprint parts and mod drops rely extensively on RNG. And RNG is flawed beyond repair.

I think their random number generator is not so random, because there is no way that the drop tables are as awful as I experienced today. I did eight void runs and got six mag prime chassis blueprints. So you're thinking, "he musta run the mag prime run over and over". No, I did basically an equal mix of T1 Ext, T2 Surv, and T3 Ext. All of them dropped mag prime chassis.

 

I believe that there was this government-sponsored program to hire severely disabled people to empty trash cans or mop floors, and the trash can guy got promoted to "Drop Table Design Specialist". Not that there's anything wrong with disabled people, I love them same as anyone else. Still, that guy was better at emptying the trash.

 

Why is the drop table encrypted and everything a big secret? It's ridiculous and demotivating. I keep running into severely tweaked drop rates, so I'm going to just say it: DE has bad drop tables. It hurts the game. The dirty little secret that some components are super-rare is not so secret. It's disrespectful, and DE needs to stop it.

[Sylaenius]

I think their random number generator is not so random, because there is no way that the drop tables are as awful as I experienced today. I did eight void runs and got six mag prime chassis blueprints. So you're thinking, "he musta run the mag prime run over and over". No, I did basically an equal mix of T1 Ext, T2 Surv, and T3 Ext. All of them dropped mag prime chassis.

 

I believe that there was this government-sponsored program to hire severely disabled people to empty trash cans or mop floors, and the trash can guy got promoted to "Drop Table Design Specialist". Not that there's anything wrong with disabled people, I love them same as anyone else. Still, that guy was better at emptying the trash.

 

Why is the drop table encrypted and everything a big secret? It's ridiculous and demotivating. I keep running into severely tweaked drop rates, so I'm going to just say it: DE has bad drop tables. It hurts the game. The dirty little secret that some components are super-rare is not so secret. It's disrespectful, and DE needs to stop it.

It's encrypted because it's set to facilitate an environment where it's easier for a player to drop 20 bucks on platinum to buy new items. New items are must haves if you want to have the edge in new content, or if you want to have fun. But then the wallet warriors run into the issue of having nothing to play and then clamour for more Shiny Things™ that they can buy for instant gratification and a fuzzy feeling of "Look at my cool thing" for a week while the F2P crowd is hung out to dry.

 

If it were unencrypted, we'd have definitive proof to then call out DE on it's S#&$. That's bad for the current business model of "Ignore peoples concerns, squeeze all the money we can outta the playerbase while we ruin the game."

[Grulos]

Why is the drop table encrypted and everything a big secret? It's ridiculous and demotivating. I keep running into severely tweaked drop rates, so I'm going to just say it: DE has bad drop tables. It hurts the game. The dirty little secret that some components are super-rare is not so secret. It's disrespectful, and DE needs to stop it.

 

For the sole reason to keep the majority of players unaware.

 

Their RNG is obviously flawed. You don't have to be a game designer or some genius to notice that.

Yet they don't do anything, except for consoling us with promises they rarely seem to keep.

 

How hard can it be to REMOVE Fusion Cores and Orokin Cells from the reward tables, add Orokin Cells to the Resource Drop Table, MOVE Prime items from rotation C (where the majority of drops are, you have to stay 20 minutes to get a prime item, but there are LOADS of possible prime items, with not equally distributed chances) to rotation a and b and equalise everything.

 

Also, how hard can it be to remove ability mods and precepts from mod drop tables.

How hard can it be to increase a few numbers of certain weapons? (read Braton Prime, which was suggested a long time. Or heavy weapons. Or the Spectra (is still bad). Or the [insert weapon here] etc)

 

I don't like being milked for money.

 

I would gladly spend money, for accessories. But then Prime Accessories cost 44€ and contain useless (for a lot of people) 90 day boosters.

Why not 10€ for the cosmetics only?

 

 

So many things...

 

 

 

It's encrypted because it's set to facilitate an environment where it's easier for a player to drop 20 bucks on platinum to buy new items. New items are must haves if you want to have the edge in new content, or if you want to have fun. But then the wallet warriors run into the issue of having nothing to play and then clamour for more Shiny Things™ that they can buy for instant gratification and a fuzzy feeling of "Look at my cool thing" for a week while the F2P crowd is hung out to dry.

 

If it were unencrypted, we'd have definitive proof to then call out DE on it's S#&$. That's bad for the current business model of "Ignore peoples concerns, squeeze all the money we can outta the playerbase while we ruin the game."

You nailed it.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Grulos

[Sasquatchias]

There was actually a bit of an issue a while back before the Drop Tables were encrypted. 

 

Someone had found the actual values (or whatever the correct term is) for the drop rate of certain items, and it was astronomically low. Almost immediately after DE said it was a bug, they'd fix it, and encrypted the drop tables.

[Grulos]

There was actually a bit of an issue a while back before the Drop Tables were encrypted. 

 

Someone had found the actual values (or whatever the correct term is) for the drop rate of certain items, and it was astronomically low. Almost immediately after DE said it was a bug, they'd fix it, and encrypted the drop tables.

"Fix" it.

Yeah, we all know they didn't.

[WhisperByte]

There was actually a bit of an issue a while back before the Drop Tables were encrypted. 

 

Someone had found the actual values (or whatever the correct term is) for the drop rate of certain items, and it was astronomically low. Almost immediately after DE said it was a bug, they'd fix it, and encrypted the drop tables.

That actually happened twice. The first time dataminers also found that Reaper Blade wasn't even in the drop tables all the while DEvs were claiming that everything's fine. If it weren't for dataminers DE would have taken forever to fix that

[ArcLightCRO]

5 T1 Capture Keys used trying to get Hikou Prime pouch, all the rewards were more bloody keys.

11 here, only blueprint was lex receiver

[MegpoidBeetle]

11 here, only blueprint was lex receiver

I pretty sure recall about 10 Devstreams ago they mentioned about GETTING RID OF THE DILUTED DROP TABLES

[Qloshae]

You're argueing for a cheap, lazy and shallow way to keep players in a game. Games are meant to be fun, and used to be designed as such. Artificially increasing playtime by forcing a farmfest is lazy game design, and all you'll get is a boring repetitive pile of crap.

 

The farming method is a perfectly fine mechanic to use in game design, but Warframe is an example of overuse. The entirety of the game, from gameplay, to game modes, to level design, to the mod system hinges on forcing the player to play through the same mission tens to hundreds of times to recieve a comparatively small reward. A Reaper prime doesn't just take a BP, a Blade, a handle, and 10 Orokin Cells. It takes hours and even days of killing Sargas Ruk to get the cells. The game is centered around a chore implemented only to inflate necessary playtime without introducing actual content or adding breadth or depth to things like AI or game modes.

 

To summarize, farming as a mechanic in a game to moderate player growth and make them work for a reward is perfectly fine, I even recommend such a system, however using a farming method sans gameplay and/or adequate reward is lazy, dishonest, and a ripoff.

I was just trying to say that apparently it works. Warframe constantly expands and DE gets more money.

In the same way, I see both perspectives as a designer and a player in this case: If a prime thing costed 500 void credits or whatever, people would become happier as then they know what they will get at the end even tho it requires a lot of grinding. Thus, grinding is still a core mechanic, but the RNG is instead a cheese, making you WANT to play that extra round, making you WANT to keep playing so you just can collect all the items.

This would however be very risky from DE's perspective, it could do so that people are active in the beginning and then it turns into a wasteland when everyone has gotten all they could get.

[Qloshae]

No, I'm not.

 

But you don't have to be a game designer or have any education in game design to spot these obvious flaws.

A great YouTube channel for gamedesign is "Extra Credits". They have awesome videos, especially about F2P games!

https://www.youtube.com/user/ExtraCreditz

No, but it definitively helps and gives you a new perspective on games.

If you are interested, Fundumentals of Game Design by Ernest, Adams is recommended to us as course literature.

[WhisperByte]

Did you even read what I posted? It seems that you didn't. If every item had an equal chance of being dropped, there would be no problem.

I did read it. But dilution still would make certain parts rarer due to the duplicates in various voids. Also what happens when they cram more primes and duplicates into the existing tables and all the drop chances steadily approach 1%?

[Airut]

I did read it. But dilution still would make certain parts rarer due to the duplicates in various voids. Also what happens when they cram more primes and duplicates into the existing tables and all the drop chances steadily approach 1%?

 

There are 40 different drop tables in the void (including the various rotations in survival, defense and interception missions). Each Prime equipment requires average of 4 parts, and each drop table has average of 4 rewards (I might had said 5 earlier on this thread, but after looking at the Prime Gear Drop Locations thread, it looks more like 4 is the average). If each of those 40 drop table had 100 rewards in it we would have about 4000 different Prime components and around 1000 Prime weapons and Warframes in total. I am pretty damn sure that DE has introduced more game modes into the Void before reaching that number.

 

The biggest problem is the drop chance DE has set, not the dilution. 1% chance for every item wouldn't even be that bad of a thing: it would encourage people trade trade their stuff more.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Airut

[Derpo]

There are 40 different drop tables in the void (including the various rotations in survival, defense and interception missions). Each Prime equipment requires average of 4 parts, and each drop table has average of 4 rewards (I might had said 5 earlier on this thread, but after looking at the Prime Gear Drop Locations thread, it looks more like 4 is the average). If each of those 40 drop table had 100 rewards in it we would have about 4000 different Prime components and around 1000 Prime weapons and Warframes in total. I am pretty damn sure that DE has introduced more game modes into the Void before reaching that number.

 

The biggest problem is the drop chance DE has set, not the dilution. 1% chance for every item wouldn't even be that bad of a thing: it would encourage people trade trade their stuff more.

I agree with Airut on this. A certain percentage of Warframe players are going to start from scratch, either because an existing player decides to double up or because a new player joins. This hypothetical new player has a completely blank slate. If you remove old content from the drop tables, new players do not have access to the old content, because it was removed.

 

The real issue is DE setting drop rates to numbers that approach zero. So long as they keep drop rates for new items within 2-5%, enough people will get the drop that most people will be able to grind or trade for an item eventually. But if the drop rate is zero, as happens from time to time, people who grind for the item will feel cheated...they will, in fact, have been cheated.

 

To a lesser extent, drop rates that translate to a hundred missions or more are far too grindy to make the game enjoyable. Recall that a 1% drop rate implies an average grind of 100 missions - and if the item drops as a tier C drop, that further implies a time investment of 35 x 100 minutes of actual mission time, not counting mission failures. That's just short of 60 hours...the work week of an overstressed developer. That's work WEEK. In other words, the grind becomes a very demanding JOB.

[rotimix3]

I love this meme

I hate people who say stuff like this. Dude if warframe is gonna continue to be a dedicated f2p(a game that a f2per can obtain anything a premium member can) it needs to fix this. Although warframe doesn't need to be f2p to get alot of players, it still cares about its community and will likely change the rng or something about it

[Airut]

I agree with Airut on this. A certain percentage of Warframe players are going to start from scratch, either because an existing player decides to double up or because a new player joins. This hypothetical new player has a completely blank slate. If you remove old content from the drop tables, new players do not have access to the old content, because it was removed.

 

The real issue is DE setting drop rates to numbers that approach zero. So long as they keep drop rates for new items within 2-5%, enough people will get the drop that most people will be able to grind or trade for an item eventually. But if the drop rate is zero, as happens from time to time, people who grind for the item will feel cheated...they will, in fact, have been cheated.

 

To a lesser extent, drop rates that translate to a hundred missions or more are far too grindy to make the game enjoyable. Recall that a 1% drop rate implies an average grind of 100 missions - and if the item drops as a tier C drop, that further implies a time investment of 35 x 100 minutes of actual mission time, not counting mission failures. That's just short of 60 hours...the work week of an overstressed developer. That's work WEEK. In other words, the grind becomes a very demanding JOB.

 

Well said!

And let's not also forget that getting so many Void keys isn't an easy task either.

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

-snip-

This right here is exactly why I never go to the void anymore. Hell, I don't even go for Argon, but that's a different rant entirely.

 

The amount of work to put into the void for many prime items is just simply too astounding to bother with. Don't get me wrong, I love to actually earn my items in games, but the way it's set up in WF is simply a madhouse. Far too much, especially considering that A. I have many other games that are competing for attention (and winning), B. I have a lot of other things I do during the day and C. I just got a job.

 

The only real thing to do in WF at the moment is farm farm farm, and that is boring as Hell to me and thus makes the game not worth my time, unlike how it used to be early on when it actually was fun.

[Mak_Gohae]

How do you guys feel about this?

 

I feel that every time they add new gear people cant wait more than 30 minutes before they flip out because they want it now and totally free.

Because that's the best way to keep the game going.

I dont know what the prices of BPs are now but if you are that tired of doing the missions you could sell all the loot you got and buy the BP you want.

[Sasquatchias]

I feel that every time they add new gear people cant wait more than 30 minutes before they flip out because they want it now and totally free.

Because that's the best way to keep the game going.

I dont know what the prices of BPs are now but if you are that tired of doing the missions you could sell all the loot you got and buy the BP you want.

Or maybe people are pissed because they went on about 10 different runs, each lasting about 20-30 mins, and still did not get the one part they wanted?

[Shezo]

I feel that every time they add new gear people cant wait more than 30 minutes before they flip out because they want it now and totally free.

Because that's the best way to keep the game going.

I dont know what the prices of BPs are now but if you are that tired of doing the missions you could sell all the loot you got and buy the BP you want.

 

That's non the best way, that's the laziest ones.

Grind is not content no matter how you look at it.

Grind is grind.

Even then, we're talking about rng grind, which is even worse.

[Loswaith]

Problem is again guraranteed reward.

This current system with RNG forces you to play more. Yes, I know it is frustrating, I spent 3 entire days farming for an egg and then when I had bought a few kubrows, I kept finding them. But it is as you pointed out a cheap way to guarantee that people keep playing.

I would like to know tho, are you a game designer? Do you have any education in game design?

Actually the best way to keep players (and get new ones) is to keep them enjoying the game. 

Players leave games when they are no longer happy with playing them (not all but most do).  As a result they will tell others it is not a fun/good game (even if it is actually a good and fun one).  Sure some people will stop playing once they have reached all their goals, but they will be telling others it is a fun/good game after they have left it.

 

Guarenteed rewards means everyone plays the same amount for the reward.  Effort is related to reward. (I can only hope missions take over on this front).  Events are a good example of effort for reward (even if they can be grindy), in that everyone has the same goal to achieve for a set reward (skill and gear power level being the major deciders).

Currently RNG means some people get it in very few missions others get them in excessive missions. Effort is not related to reward.

[SatouJin]

and that's why i'm all right with events. even if others say they're grindy, at least i can see a set goal and reward for them (here's the quota, meet it and get these items). when a new prime comes out they instead say: here's a shovel - there's the coal mine - good luck finding something that doesn't just give you lung cancer since what you're looking for may or may not even exist! ('?' marks this time in possible prime locations)

 

no matter how high they set the ratio, i'll always prefer the guaranteed reward of a token system to the RNG system.

Edited September 27, 2014 by SatouJin

[Qloshae]

Actually the best way to keep players (and get new ones) is to keep them enjoying the game. 

Players leave games when they are no longer happy with playing them (not all but most do).  As a result they will tell others it is not a fun/good game (even if it is actually a good and fun one).  Sure some people will stop playing once they have reached all their goals, but they will be telling others it is a fun/good game after they have left it.

 

Guarenteed rewards means everyone plays the same amount for the reward.  Effort is related to reward. (I can only hope missions take over on this front).  Events are a good example of effort for reward (even if they can be grindy), in that everyone has the same goal to achieve for a set reward (skill and gear power level being the major deciders).

Currently RNG means some people get it in very few missions others get them in excessive missions. Effort is not related to reward.

I answered this in the next post however.

 

I would totally love it if they changed RNG into an effort = reward system that may force you to do a lot of grinding, but at least you know when it will end. However, I can also see the risk of a system based on effort = currency = reward because the really active players will collect a lot of currency and thus can buy everything that comes out. This could possibly be fixed tho with a system where you need to 'place' the currency on a specific item before you can earn it.

So let's call it 'solar credits' for normal items. You gain no solar credits normally, but once you have selected for example 'kubrow egg', the solar credits will start to gather for 'kubrow egg', you can't 'place' the credits on your own i.e. it is not independent of the item you are grinding for. So, if I want a kubrow egg and a nyx chassi, I will first have to select kubrow egg and farm for it, then select nyx chassi and farm for it. Tho personally I think warframes should be RNG as while the stack might be smaller, you will feel like you got something special i.e. doing T4D will give you a chance of getting Nyx Prime BP, Loki Prime Systems, or Ember Prime BP, but a larger chance of getting credits or mods i.e. items that can't be bought with 'void credits'. Otherwise you'd need a grind wall like 500 VC and each mission gives you VC equivalent to their level - T1 - 1, T2 - 2, T3 - 3 etc. and also each 5 waves or 5 minutes (maybe even a bonus every 20th wave or minute).

 

But in the end, brainstorming for us doesn't really matter because it is a risky change that I think they won't make. It is one of those choices that make you or break you. Doing anything wrong could make the community pissed or bored.

[Mak_Gohae]

Or maybe people are &!$$ed because they went on about 10 different runs, each lasting about 20-30 mins, and still did not get the one part they wanted?

 

Correct, like i said, they didnt get what they wanted the first day and they flip.

 

That's non the best way, that's the laziest ones.

Grind is not content no matter how you look at it.

Grind is grind.

Even then, we're talking about rng grind, which is even worse.

 

If grind isnt content then every game is history has very little content because grind is a standard in games.

And grind and rng is also a standard in loot games, if you dont like it we should suggest some ideas that keep people playing for a long time.

Because that's the main reason for this.

[Qloshae]

That's non the best way, that's the laziest ones.

Grind is not content no matter how you look at it.

Grind is grind.

Even then, we're talking about rng grind, which is even worse.

Grind is the game.

RNG grind is the question.

If you didn't need to grind, why would you play? Why would you play when you are just handed stuff without any work?

Sure, you may play for a little while, but after that? For how long would it be fun to play a game without any rewards?

Think about it for a second. Every new player on Warframe becoming rank 16 with all slots and items unlocked and waiting for them. Because yea, that's how a game without any grind is.