Axes/hammers Are Frustrating Due To Lack Of Copter

[Inmemoratus]

I just got my Scindo Prime and I was really hoping it had a better spin attack than the other heavy weapons, but to my disappointment, the spin attack is slower than normal sprinting.

 

I don't understand how these weapons are supposed to be worth using when you give up so much mobility to use them. The only notable thing they do is the big area slam attack which is pretty useful for infested defense but that's about it.

 

Coptering isn't just for getting through levels faster. It is the most evasive combat maneuver and best gap closer if you want to melee. Rolling doesn't dodge stuff very well, and nothing else gets you to your target as quickly as a fast copter.

 

We need alternatives for general mobility and the heavy weapons need a better spin attack. Right now the spin attack does the same damage as the slam attack but without the CC, lower range, and does not add any mobility or evasive potential.

[XenoFant]

Choose: heavy, slow and strong OR light, fast and (kinda) weak.

If you could combine these two to e.g: heavy, fast and strong, the weapon would kick @$$ and would be kinda overpowered without even modding it.

 

Otherwise you can get that in modding the weapons correctly

[Monolake]

Yep, coptering disparity put the weapons that cant copter into bottom tier.

 

 

 

Choose: heavy, slow and strong OR light, fast and (kinda) weak.

If you could combine these two to e.g: heavy, fast and strong, the weapon would kick @$$ and would be kinda overpowered without even modding it.

 

Otherwise you can get that in modding the weapons correctly

 

Except fast weapons are better than the slow ones DPS wise

Edited September 26, 2014 by Monolake

[Inmemoratus]

Choose: heavy, slow and strong OR light, fast and (kinda) weak.

If you could combine these two to e.g: heavy, fast and strong, the weapon would kick @$$ and would be kinda overpowered without even modding it.

 

Otherwise you can get that in modding the weapons correctly

 

Well in reality the heavy weapons suck because they deal low damage and don't copter. The only reason to use them is the slam attack for CC.

 

Even if they were buffed in damage to be slow and strong, they would not be worth using. Fast weapons like Dual Zoren do insane damage and you simply do not need any more damage than that.

[Shion963]

And here I thought their main problem is that they're so weak for being so slow.

I'd be able to happily forego coptering if they do some serious impact.

[AdFinitum]

I absolutly agree.

 

Slow weapons deal more damage per hit.

Fast weapons deal less damage but hit more often.

( Not counting unballanced weapons )

 

Agility has nothing to do with weapon ballance. Coptering was a bug and as such it came with a buggy mechanic.

 

Now that coptering has been accepted as a legit part of Warframe it should be overhauled - the "bug" should be turned into a

movement mechanic that does not punish a player's melee weapon choice.

 

Edit : Googling for "Ninja kick" images shows some nice ways how a weapon independant replacement could work ^^ I dont dare to link some here due to possible legal issues.

Edited September 26, 2014 by AdFinitum

[blade00000009]

If you want to copter get a dual zorens or ichors put fury and beserker. So just because a weapon can't copter it is bad? There are high tier weapons that I use in my t4's that can not copter like Scindo prime, serro, orthos prime, Kronen. I know it's part of your playstyle mayb but spinning across 20 meters just to get a kill with a weapon is pretty funny because most likely you will miss. Don't add coptering to every single weapon in the game. You the sprint ctrl and jump to get to them then slam attack while you watch them fly into the air with your scindo prime in your hand. 

[--Q--WaffleZ]

Try flipping, it may not fast as coptering but it can do with every weapon.

[fatpig84]

Scindo Prime DPS pretty much smashes plenty of weapons in the face thanks to spin to win of the Cleaving Whirlwind.

In fact, I am hoping this is what will entail the heavy weapons buff.
Huge arse damage but you lose out on some utility.

 

If it is too slow for you, use slide flipping or use abilities like slash dash.

[Inmemoratus]

And here I thought their main problem is that they're so weak for being so slow.

I'd be able to happily forego coptering if they do some serious impact.

The Scindo Prime has very high damage, but it's still kinda bad. I just got mine and I just don't see the point to using it except that it looks cool. I don't think it can get as high DPS as the Zorens but even if it does get more, it doesn't matter because the Zorens kill things so fast already.

Scindo Prime DPS pretty much smashes plenty of weapons in the face thanks to spin to win of the Cleaving Whirlwind.
In fact, I am hoping this is what will entail the heavy weapons buff.
Huge arse damage but you lose out on some utility.

If it is too slow for you, use slide flipping or use abilities like slash dash.

Copter weapons like Zorens or Scoliac are much better than slide flipping or slash dash. They also deal very high damage so there's no point to using anything else. Edited September 26, 2014 by Inmemoratus

[fatpig84]

Copter weapons like Zorens or Scoliac are much better than slide flipping or slash dash. They also deal very high damage so there's no point to using anything else.

 

 

The hordes of guys toting Dragon Nikanas / Dakra Prime that can 1 to 2 hit stalker beg to differ.

Again it is strictly taste, do you want extreme damage (dragon nikana can't copter for crap either) or sacrifice a bit of damage for utility.

 

The Jet Kitty can't copter for hell and at best, average DPS (due to slow swing, but per hit it wrecks), but there are people who use it to CC infested by smashing ancients all over the place.  Weird I know :/

Edited September 26, 2014 by fatpig84

[Inmemoratus]

The hordes of guys toting Dragon Nikanas / Dakra Prime that can 1 to 2 hit stalker beg to differ.

Again it is strictly taste, do you want extreme damage (dragon nikana can't copter for crap either) or sacrifice a bit of damage for utility.

 

The Jet Kitty can't copter for hell and at best, average DPS (due to slow swing, but per hit it wrecks), but there are people who use it to CC infested by smashing ancients all over the place.  Weird I know :/

I've been using my Scindo Prime to CC infested and it's good for that purpose, but these weapons aren't good for general use because the other factions don't behave like the infested. Stalker is also a niche case but the Zorens can kill him in less than a second anyway.

[Zero.No.Hikari]

I find it funny how a weapon is considered useless if it can't copter.....Welp back to using my Kronen since who doesn't love throwing blades into a enemies face.  I myself can't wait for them to change it into a Air Dash of sorts that works off a 'Frames base speed.

[SIDESTRE4M]

They should just incorporate coptering into basic movement category like wallrun and the like.

 

Unique movements per weapon and not that spastic movement we have now.

[Inmemoratus]

I find it funny how a weapon is considered useless if it can't copter.....Welp back to using my Kronen since who doesn't love throwing blades into a enemies face.  I myself can't wait for them to change it into a Air Dash of sorts that works off a 'Frames base speed.

 

I don't know if anyone actually considers the weapons useless. Not once in this thread did I make such a hyperbolic statement.

 

The problem is that the total benefit to using a weapon without a fast copter isn't high enough compared to the total benefit of using a weapon with a really good copter.

 

In other words, the weapons are poorly balanced.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Inmemoratus

[H.Katsura_999]

Wut? the Scindo? Copter?

 

You know very well that those two words don't mix.

Edited September 26, 2014 by H.Katsura_999

[Zero.No.Hikari]

I don't know if anyone actually considers the weapons useless. Not once in this thread did I make such a hyperbolic statement.

 

The problem is that the total benefit to using a weapon without a fast copter isn't high enough compared to the total benefit of using a weapon with a really good copter.

 

In other words, the weapons are poorly balanced.

 

Coptering isn't something that should be balanced for.  I myself am still waiting for them to rework it into something that doesn't work with weapon attack speeds.   I use wall leaps or jump flips.  Rarely do I copter, even when I was using Atterax.

[Troll_Logic]

Coptering is stupid.  I hate it.  They should get rid of it.

[Seanjuju]

If you want coptering then you can't use these weapons. I'm surprised you thought they would copter at all.

[ArgonTheFox]

You had to use your legs!? Like, DE made you walk somewhere?! How scandalous of them! Such villains!

[AdFinitum]

If you dont like coptering - dont do it. But let others copter with the weapon they wish. Its not that I cant copter now. I just have to stick to the second best ( surprisingly the second recent ^^ ) weapon but since I will be at enemies with my Bo Prime long before any Scindo Prime gets there I can live with that :-P

 

Some high level players just fly threw some Voids - so a lot of weapons will probably be useless for them at least in those missions. And those who use them sometimes wont even reach the extraction point before the timer runs out. Its just odd the way it is.

 

Edit : I also rescued quite a few mates in the last second before bleeding out just by means of coptering. The existance of non coptering weapons can impose a huge disadvantage on a player and a team.

 

Edit 2 : this is not about coptering itself but about a restriction of it to certain weapons. That you dont like coptering is not an argument to not fix it.

 

Last Point : If you dont like coptering because you are not good at it. Its easy and once you learn how to do it you wont let go. Yet thats not a point against coptering and neither against making it work with any weapon aka "I cant / dont want to copter so at least I can use a weapon they cant" sounds a bit selfish.

Edited September 26, 2014 by AdFinitum

[Inmemoratus]

Try flipping, it may not fast as coptering but it can do with every weapon.

I did try it. The first weapon I built was the Gram. The next thing I built was Fragor. They were ok but then I explored other weapons. I tried the Glaive, which can copter 3-4 times in a row with the Fury mod installed. Then I tried Zorens which launch you across the room with one air copter and it gets insane if you proc Berserker.

 

I can't go back to my heavy weapons. I just can't do it. The lack of mobility sucks so much.

 

Coptering isn't something that should be balanced for.  I myself am still waiting for them to rework it into something that doesn't work with weapon attack speeds.   I use wall leaps or jump flips.  Rarely do I copter, even when I was using Atterax.

 Then they should rebalance coptering itself like you said. The current state of things is not ok. It's not balanced.

 

Also, the game is less fun without that mobility. So it should be available no matter which melee weapon you pick. It doesn't have to be linked to your melee weapon. Whatever they do they gotta fix this situation.

[SIDESTRE4M]

It's not, that we would be short on mobilitywithout coptering either, but as long as there is a faster way, people will use it.

[GTG3000]

It's not, that we would be short on mobilitywithout coptering either, but as long as there is a faster way, people will use it.

 

Seeing how walljumping got nerfed (it doesn't launch you as hard half the times, and oftenly your warframe will decide to climb onto whatever you're trying to jump against) and you can't use slide quite as efficiently, removing coptering as well would be a hefty stab at mobility.

 

I'm not saying it's mandatory to be able to traverse levels rapidly, but it is a fun facet of warframe gameplay, and should be encouraged, along with level exploration. Coptering is an ascended bug, and rightfully so as it provides a fun and rather unique game mechanic to the game, which can be used by DE to balance weapons against, and to build levels around. Mobility is a big part of warframe, and being forced to simply pace around the level without using all the shortcuts made possible by the game is always quite a bland experience, at least for me.

 

The problem OP describes is that many heavy weapons are lackluster. I can't really speak for ALL things heavy, but I did find myself lacking mobility with gram, even with it's forward-thrust combo (considering you can't trigger it instantly like you can a slide attack). If DE reworks heavy melee to have enough bang for their buck, that would suffice.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Seeing how walljumping got nerfed (it doesn't launch you as hard half the times, and oftenly your warframe will decide to climb onto whatever you're trying to jump against) and you can't use slide quite as efficiently, removing coptering as well would be a hefty stab at mobility.

 

I'm not saying it's mandatory to be able to traverse levels rapidly, but it is a fun facet of warframe gameplay, and should be encouraged, along with level exploration. Coptering is an ascended bug, and rightfully so as it provides a fun and rather unique game mechanic to the game, which can be used by DE to balance weapons against, and to build levels around. Mobility is a big part of warframe, and being forced to simply pace around the level without using all the shortcuts made possible by the game is always quite a bland experience, at least for me.

 

The problem OP describes is that many heavy weapons are lackluster. I can't really speak for ALL things heavy, but I did find myself lacking mobility with gram, even with it's forward-thrust combo (considering you can't trigger it instantly like you can a slide attack). If DE reworks heavy melee to have enough bang for their buck, that would suffice.

 

What coptering people see: Whoo, I'm so pro, coptering is so awesome, we need coptering, every weapon that can'T copter is bad. it's so fun!

 

What I see: A spinning frame whose legs move spastically like in a cartoon afterwards, looking totally $&*&*#(%&. A move, that's completly alien in its own environment. Failed gamebalancing. People who are polemic because they just want so be hyperactive ingame.

 

Don't take this too serious though, that's just my personal viewpoint in an exaggerated manner. I could accept coptering without problems, but not like this. It's just a bug people are exploiting because DE didn't have the balls to remove it.

 

You will always see arguments pro and con and neither is right or wrong, as long as it's a properly implemented feature, which it's not.

That's the point of the thread. Not if coptering needs to stay or not.

Edited September 27, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M