Why Not Incorperate The Enemy Radar Into The Base Of The Game

[Neocyberman]

Say what you will about stealth mechanics... seriously say anything they need more development attention from the developers like a lot of early features.

 

But stealth is nearly impossible without some idea of enemy movements or a level of alert of individual enemies. Extermination is difficult with only a vague sense of where your critical targets are.

 

The arguments I hear often against such a thing are

1:Why are you playing stealth

2:What about existing enemy reveal features like mods

 

1: Well I don't often do so but because no one cues up on neptune I find myself more and more going solo. This means that keeping enemies off my trail is important so I don't get swamped. 

 

If you are asking this question then you too realize that stealth, a part of the game which has mechanics supporting it, is not good. It is in fact so not good that it at times hardly seems worth keeping existing stealth mechanics because map and enemy AI design are so geared towards the large mob enemy shooting that we have come to enjoy. I recognize this. That is part of the reason why a built in enemy marking or minimap finding function is necessary. Stealth is so damn weak in its implementation that this basic mechanic is missing.

 

2: I'll say something controversial here. I don't think those mods are necessary in the sense that they take up space which can be taken over by other much more functional mods. The only way to regain this space is forma which takes tons of effort to gain that advantage. Further more enemy radar falls into one of those mods like maglev which provides little and lacks viability as the game goes on. Its a filler mod in the place of better mechanics.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Neocyberman

[Boatsniper]

Perhaps like how Borderlands 2 does it? Enemies would be revealed on the radar when your are in combat?

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

I think that adding this as a full and pure base mechanic is unneccessary at this moment in time. Mostly, it would contribute a lot of clutter on your mini-map UI.

 

If/when stealth becomes a much more relevant aspect, then I would have to look at how it is handled and then see whether or not the change would make sense.

[Kasumi-]

I like this idea. I have multiple copies of enemy radar that I never use, nor will I ever use them. I like to try steathing when I solo and I think this would be useful. I don't like the idea of having to modify my build so that I can equip an incompatable Aura into my frame (though it's not like I ever do anyways.)

[unknow99]

As another stealth player, I often see it as a "kill-the-challenge" feature (like if they'd implement seeable enemy cone vision or AI path)...

 

Stealht, however, needs its deserved improvements.

[Horonelius]

On the whole, enemy radar is much more useful in a group than it is alone because it applies to the whole team. One ER and three Corrosive Projections is really all you need for any real end game area. That last 10% of armor isn't going to make a whole lot of difference, and 30 meters is fine for a radar.

Really this is the same as people complaining about the base damage mods. No they don't do anything special and they COULD be incorperated into the actual game, but this puts the experience into the hands of the player; Do you want to just spam the S#&$ out of your low cost ultimate, or do you want to be able to see where each enemy is plan each use accordingly?

 

EDIT: After rereading the OP I kinda realize my post has nothing to do with what you said really.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Horonelius

[Neocyberman]

I think that adding this as a full and pure base mechanic is unneccessary at this moment in time. Mostly, it would contribute a lot of clutter on your mini-map UI.

 

If/when stealth becomes a much more relevant aspect, then I would have to look at how it is handled and then see whether or not the change would make sense.

Yeah the UI is indeed rather cluttered when you have multiple objectives and needs tweaking bad. 

 

I see your sentiment about stealth and that's kind of what I'm trying to get at. Stealth is not really in a better position now that it was quite a few updates ago and its something that has been with the game for quite a long time. The issue seems to not be and if/when scenario. It seems to be a "If nothing is implemented now then when?". It doesn't seem like anything is coming down the pipline and its a mechanic that would likely change the gameplay a great deal if it does get addressed because it has been left this way for a long time.

 

Like, I enjoy making games. I don't right now because college. But when I add a mechanic I need to be certain that neglecting another feature in favor of implementing it doesn't mean I will need to revisit the issue and rewrite god knows what. I once created a movement system for my core gameplay and had to rewrite it once I tried networking pretty much removing all my work.

 

Stealth is like that. Stealth isnt just about the enemy radar or vision cones. Its issues with AI and the UI and melee and weapon sound and weapon design and information the player needs but doesn't have. This feature addition is a small thing that from my perspective is a simple first step that benefits both stealth and non stealth gameplay. Implementation is up to the devs but it is necessary. 

 

What I am trying to get across the most is if stealth does not receive attention in any way it will never be relevant until it becomes your only option and when it does you can feel how unpolished it is.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Neocyberman

[Liminal]

Yes. I agree. This kind of "quality of life" mod is pointless when it could just be included in the game, because most people would never even think of using it except under very specific circumstances. They cannot compete with more powerful mods or auras (and thus, they are unbalanced just like many other things in WF).

But here's the thing: other quality of life improvement mods still exist as such and turning them into basic mechanics has been suggested before with no results, so it's unlikely DE will ever do this.

[Neocyberman]

Yes. I agree. This kind of "quality of life" mod is pointless when it could just be included in the game, because most people would never even think of using it except under very specific circumstances. They cannot compete with more powerful mods or auras (and thus, they are unbalanced just like many other things in WF).

But here's the thing: other quality of life improvement mods still exist as such and turning them into basic mechanics has been suggested before with no results, so it's unlikely DE will ever do this.

 I'll be honest. I have almost no hope for this.

 

I have nearly none. Warframe has... how do I say. Development and community feedback issues. But that deserves another thread entirely which likely would be swept away because there is no "Community and Development" feedback forum.

 

What is more on topic is that this like a lot of issues is long standing. I dearly hope that this gets attention. Stealth I mean as well as other issues with the game that lack polish. 

 

I'd make a "Core game features General" but that would likely spiral out of place.

[Phatose]

That's a psychology problem though, nothing about the mod itself. 

 

Radar does more for your Time To Kill then any other aura in a very wide range of circumstance, precisely because we're ridiculously overpowered.  Time to kill isn't just enemy HP/DPS.  It's also time to locate and acquire your target.  Extra DPS has minimal effect in a lot of situations - at times no effect, when you're already at 1 shot kills.  Reducing your time to locate though, that speeds things up.

[TaylorsContraction]

Honestly I don't think it's necessary. Aside from melee stealth and ability stealth we have two big stealth features that allow one to clear missions without ever being noticed.

 

1) Your scanner - this item is great for looking for enemies. It can see through walls and mark targetes and personally I find this great for stealth runs as an alternative to enemy sense.

 

 

2) Silencers or passively quite weapons. So long as you kill your target fast enough so that it cannot react to being attacked, no one will be alerted to the fact that they died, not even the guy right next to him (yeah that's kind of a flaw possible).

 

Use your scanner to scout enemies, take them out with silenced weapons. This is generally how I run stealth, yeah it's a bit slower than just running and gunning but I personally enjoy it more. When doing this, you will not be swarmed by anything, there are actually not that many enemies on the map. You won't alert anyone and you also won't suffer the "infinite enemies syndrome" from alerting hostiles.

 

edited some typos

Edited September 30, 2014 by TaylorsContraction

[Neocyberman]

Honestly I don't think it's necessary. Aside from melee stealth and ability stealth we have two big stealth features that allow one to clear missions without ever being noticed.

 

1) Your scanner - this item is great for looking for enemies. It can see through walls and mark targetes and personally I find this great for stealth runs as an alternative to enemy sense.

 

 

2) Silencers or passively quite weapons. So long as you kill your target fast enough so that it cannot react to being attacked, no one will be alerted to the fact that they died, not even the guy right next to him (yeah that's kind of a flaw possible).

 

Use your scanner to scout enemies, take them out with silenced weapons. This is generally how I run stealth, yeah it's a bit slower than just running and gunning but I personally enjoy it more. When doing this, you will not be swarmed by anything, there are actually not that many enemies on the map. You won't alert anyone and you also won't suffer the "infinite enemies syndrome" from alerting hostiles.

 

edited some typos

 

1: I have used the scanner trick but it doesn't offer you a feedback on your map. It probably should mark enemies on the map with their facing directions, additionally enemy facing directions need to be on the map. Furthermore its something you have to buy. Not necessarily maintain but purchase and keep without any indication that it will aid you in stealth. Perhaps it too should be incorporated into the player's arsenal or base skills.

 

2: In an earlier post this is what I was hinting at. Weapon silence. Its not something that is always clear and could use a stat or something

 

All in all I would like more. More in terms of polishing of existing mechanics and the introduction of new mechanics.

[Me.Greedy]

This makes me feel like people are lazy. if "seeing" the enemy is important to your stealthing, then you should have a build that supports that, when you stealth you use something different than when you are doing defense.

 

This game presents many different gameplays, and they can be dealt with by using different things in your arsenal. you don't have to always bring rhino prime, boltor prime, angstrum, reaper prime... or whatever is your absolute god-tier stuff is.