_sheepy_ Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 If you're dissatisfied with a recent patch or update and want to give DE a piece of your mind, the Specific Feedback associated with your platform (i.e. PC Specific Feedback or PS4 Specific feedback) is probably where it will get moved to (it may also be moved to the other feedback forums depending on what the thread is specifically about) More likely the thread will just get locked,(This is specifically about this thread) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser_Suoh Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 If you're dissatisfied with a recent patch or update and want to give DE a piece of your mind, the Specific Feedback associated with your platform (i.e. PC Specific Feedback or PS4 Specific feedback) is probably where it will get moved to (it may also be moved to the other feedback forums depending on what the thread is specifically about) More likely the thread will just get locked,(This is specifically about this thread) I tried, i made a feedback about Nullifiers but was a waste of time if they dont read feedbacks except when DE ask us for help. I will wait a fix in U16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somedude1000 Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 I tried, i made a feedback about Nullifiers but was a waste of time if they dont read feedbacks except when DE ask us for help. I will wait a fix in U16. Rest assured, feedback is frequently read even if the devs dont answer, but analysis is made collectively, DE doesn't look at individual ideas to make decisions, they look at the communities collective reaction... Assuming that they dont take the feedback subsection seriously at all is misguided to say the least, when the most valuable information and player ideas resonate there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser_Suoh Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 Rest assured, feedback is frequently read even if the devs dont answer, but analysis is made collectively, DE doesn't look at individual ideas to make decisions, they look at the communities collective reaction... Assuming that they dont take the feedback subsection seriously at all is misguided to say the least, when the most valuable information and player ideas resonate there Do you remember the impression when Nullifier were launched? many feedbacks were created about that shield. Even Rebecca replied in one "Big Thread". Collective reaction is "Nullifier is fine, is easy to kill... but that shield is still broken and need some fix" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHOBIE Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 I request this thread be moved to feedback section of the forums. As a general guideline; people will think general discussion is general discussion. You can make 100 posts claiming otherwise, but that is not going to solve the problem one way or another. I have a lot of sympathy for our forum moderators moving threads around all day, but I don't think it is efficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)IIIDevoidIII Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 I request this thread be moved to feedback section of the forums. This thread is not a feedback thread in the least. It describes what the General Discussion subforum is and isn't. It is a PSA, pinned by the Forum Staff, to bring awareness and a general guideline to what forum sections are and how they should be treated. Moving this to feedback would be like moving the Code of Conduct/rules to feedback. They clearly are not, but are, rather, guidelines to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHOBIE Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 My point is that no amount of rules we put up will make people think that a forum section that is labeled "General Discussion" will serve some other purpose. We can try and pretend that we can change the minds of people magically, and force them into our understanding of what "General Discussion" should mean to them. As long as the words "general" and "discussion" are part of general discussion; people will think they can in general discuss general things there, no matter what anyone writes anywhere. As to moving this thread to feedback section: As it generally does not seem to influence people, and reflects a reality that we might wish for but isn't happening, I would estimate your words "It describes what the General Discussion subforum is and isn't" as constructionism or constructivism, both of which can be an art. I will thus settle for the fan fiction area. That was a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHOBIE Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 "Tulzscha Posted 01 April 2014 - 03:13 PM Lickity-Split, on 01 Apr 2014 - 11:36 AM, said: People mostly hang out in General... So community came to terms with "If you want your topic to be seen then post in General". That is a misguided way of thinking. Like I said - the subforums exist for a reason. Phoenix86, on 01 Apr 2014 - 3:12 PM, said: You cant deny that General Discussion has way more visibility than any other section... that's why ppl post here Letter Once more, with feeling: the subforums exist for a reason. General discussion is not for feedback, bug reports, requests for help, and other topic types specified in the original post of this thread." -- The misguided way of thinking seems to be that we encourage people to give their feedback, then tell them we don't want it where they put it, crack our whip every time we think they go wrong, and expect them to become happy Tenno. General Discussion section on game forums always means discussing their game to people, and no amount of holy rage will change that: It is a structural problem of the forums, and as long as we do not address it, we will likely weigh down moderators with routine tasks, and hamper their performance. There seems little value in trying to "teach" people a posteriori what they "did wrong", when the format encourages people to do these things. The section "General Discussion" is misleading at first glance, and people will neither care to read a giant post trying to regulate them, nor will they respect it; because it has nothing to do with what they want, and they are in disagreement anyway: They didn't mean to give DE feedback when they posted in General Discussion; they meant to get feedback from other players. By moving the post we would be taking their intent out of context, which tends to make people angry, unhappy, and rebellious, no matter how right or wrong they are. You don't invite people to church; then expect them not to pray but instead read the bible and come to the conclusion that they need to fix the plumbing. Our players are not okay with the current policy regarding General Discussion. They feel snubbed, regulated, and infringed in their perceived rights. They aren't interested in becoming part of a "megathread", because they think their contribution is unique and special, and they think that they can have their own thread, with their own feedback, because they feel they are an individual, and because they hate to be treated as a mass. They will not search for like threads before they post, or search for posts on what they "should not do", when the format seems to tell them clearly what to do. No matter what side of the argument we take, it boils down to the fact that we are not creating happy players through the current regulations and format. To show how to take this ad absurdum: "General discussion is not for feedback, bug reports, requests for help, and other topic types specified in the original post of this thread." What happens if we make this line pop up whenever someone enters General Discussion? -> People will have no idea what this section is actually meant for. If they think deeply about it, they will come to the conclusion that anything they write there can be interpreted as feedback, at which point it seems absurd for them to post here at all, in case they are familiar with the rules. They also don't care: They wanted to make a quick post, not spend an hour perusing unclear rules subject to interpretation, and end up having no influence where their posts ends up. TLDR: It might be more beneficial to tell players what they should do, and encourage their motivation; versus telling them what not to do and kill their motivation. Quote: Quand tu veux construire un bateau, ne commence pas par rassembler du bois, couper des planches et distribuer du travail, mais reveille au sein des hommes le desir de la mer grande et large. ~"When you want to build a ship, do not begin by gathering wood, cutting boards, and distributing work, but awaken within the heart of man the desire for the vast and endless sea" (Attributed to Saint-Exupéry) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser_Suoh Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) "Tulzscha Posted 01 April 2014 - 03:13 PM Lickity-Split, on 01 Apr 2014 - 11:36 AM, said: People mostly hang out in General... So community came to terms with "If you want your topic to be seen then post in General". That is a misguided way of thinking. Like I said - the subforums exist for a reason. Phoenix86, on 01 Apr 2014 - 3:12 PM, said: You cant deny that General Discussion has way more visibility than any other section... that's why ppl post here Letter Once more, with feeling: the subforums exist for a reason. General discussion is not for feedback, bug reports, requests for help, and other topic types specified in the original post of this thread." -- The misguided way of thinking seems to be that we encourage people to give their feedback, then tell them we don't want it where they put it, crack our whip every time we think they go wrong, and expect them to become happy Tenno. General Discussion section on game forums always means discussing their game to people, and no amount of holy rage will change that: It is a structural problem of the forums, and as long as we do not address it, we will likely weigh down moderators with routine tasks, and hamper their performance. There seems little value in trying to "teach" people a posteriori what they "did wrong", when the format encourages people to do these things. The section "General Discussion" is misleading at first glance, and people will neither care to read a giant post trying to regulate them, nor will they respect it; because it has nothing to do with what they want, and they are in disagreement anyway: They didn't mean to give DE feedback when they posted in General Discussion; they meant to get feedback from other players. By moving the post we would be taking their intent out of context, which tends to make people angry, unhappy, and rebellious, no matter how right or wrong they are. You don't invite people to church; then expect them not to pray but instead read the bible and come to the conclusion that they need to fix the plumbing. Our players are not okay with the current policy regarding General Discussion. They feel snubbed, regulated, and infringed in their perceived rights. They aren't interested in becoming part of a "megathread", because they think their contribution is unique and special, and they think that they can have their own thread, with their own feedback, because they feel they are an individual, and because they hate to be treated as a mass. They will not search for like threads before they post, or search for posts on what they "should not do", when the format seems to tell them clearly what to do. No matter what side of the argument we take, it boils down to the fact that we are not creating happy players through the current regulations and format. To show how to take this ad absurdum: "General discussion is not for feedback, bug reports, requests for help, and other topic types specified in the original post of this thread." What happens if we make this line pop up whenever someone enters General Discussion? -> People will have no idea what this section is actually meant for. If they think deeply about it, they will come to the conclusion that anything they write there can be interpreted as feedback, at which point it seems absurd for them to post here at all, in case they are familiar with the rules. They also don't care: They wanted to make a quick post, not spend an hour perusing unclear rules subject to interpretation, and end up having no influence where their posts ends up. TLDR: It might be more beneficial to tell players what they should do, and encourage their motivation; versus telling them what not to do and kill their motivation. Quote: Quand tu veux construire un bateau, ne commence pas par rassembler du bois, couper des planches et distribuer du travail, mais reveille au sein des hommes le desir de la mer grande et large. ~"When you want to build a ship, do not begin by gathering wood, cutting boards, and distributing work, but awaken within the heart of man the desire for the vast and endless sea" (Attributed to Saint-Exupéry) I made several posts in General, many people saw me... Then my post was moved to a feedback section... nobody else saw my post and fell into oblivion. That is why people make post in General, is in there where is the attention. And that is why i have "warning points" for "post in wrong section" (because i hate the broken Nullifiers shield and is ok because is the rules), i wanted attention and that people can comment about that. EDIT: How many players are reading this thread right now? Edited February 9, 2015 by Kaiser_Suoh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somedude1000 Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 (edited) I made several posts in General, many people saw me... Then my post was moved to a feedback section... nobody else saw my post and fell into oblivion. That is why people make post in General, is in there where is the attention. And that is why i have "warning points" for "post in wrong section" (because i hate the broken Nullifiers shield and is ok because is the rules), i wanted attention and that people can comment about that. EDIT: How many players are reading this thread right now? If your post fell into oblivion, it is likely that either your topic was not interesting, or you simply posted at a time when many forumgoers were busy. If your topic is relevant, people will answer it, it's as simple as that. If your topic is poorly worded and has a juvenile tone, then it is also likely people altogether ignored it as it seemed that discussing against you would only cause you to throw a fit of rage General discussion has been in this position in the list of sub-forums for a long time, if you want a thread to get attention, your target is the people who will see the post in the "recent topics" column. Once the topic goes "hot" you shouldn't need to worry about it getting attention any longer. Also, just because people do not answer, does not mean [people are not watching, there are plenty of neutral forumgoers who simply read the forums but dont take part in the discussion. It's not about "making a hot topic" or a "popular thread", if you want to contribute to the game, post in the right subsections, whether or not the thread becomes popular, it's the idea that matters, if it's a good idea, people will go read the thread, so do not intentionally post in the wrong subsections and simultaneously disobey forum rules if you don't want warning points Edited February 10, 2015 by Somedude1000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser_Suoh Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 If your post fell into oblivion, it is likely that either your topic was not interesting, or you simply posted at a time when many forumgoers were busy. If your topic is relevant, people will answer it, it's as simple as that. If your topic is poorly worded and has a juvenile tone, then it is also likely people altogether ignored it as it seemed that discussing against you would only cause you to throw a fit of rage General discussion has been in this position in the list of sub-forums for a long time, if you want a thread to get attention, your target is the people who will see the post in the "recent topics" column. Once the topic goes "hot" you shouldn't need to worry about it getting attention any longer. Also, just because people do not answer, does not mean [people are not watching, there are plenty of neutral forumgoers who simply read the forums but dont take part in the discussion. It's not about "making a hot topic" or a "popular thread", if you want to contribute to the game, post in the right subsections, whether or not the thread becomes popular, it's the idea that matters, if it's a good idea, people will go read the thread, so do not intentionally post in the wrong subsections and simultaneously disobey forum rules if you don't want warning points More than that i am interested in how many people are in each section (There was a time when you could see how many people and their names were there). I bet it's only a very small fraction are in feedback section. I made a claim post, because was a claiming about Nullifiers (I was still respectful and do not insult anyone) because i can claim, that is not forbidden. My "claim post" was moved because it looked suspiciously like a "feedback". I wanted attention because i know that a little feedback is useless in the forum. Also in General exist people who can comment better and more fast than feedback section, i can say it for my own experience. That "claim post" obtained "likes" and "comments" rapidly becoming popular. And then, and is my own thought, mods moved my post "to a proper section" because they realized that... and then oblivion. EVEN if i just made a claim and NOT a feedback post. I repeat, i dont wanted to contribute, i just wanted to complain and that others can comment about my complaint. About the last part, i want to attention for my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)IIIDevoidIII Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 And then, and is my own thought, mods moved my post "to a proper section" because they realized that... and then oblivion. EVEN if i just made a claim and NOT a feedback post. Nope. Moves are never made with views in mind. They are made entirely based on the post and what section accomodates it best. A 'claim' or a 'complaint', as you put it, is a form of feedback. Feedback is a reaction to a product, to which is used for a base to improve upon. A complaint is stating that something is not up to par with expectation, which, in turn, suggests what is being complained about be changed. The reaction to the product was a complaint and it can be interpreted to improve upon the system; ergo it is feedback. A discussion is quite literally a discussion. Discussions can be had in any forum section, definitely, but discussions that can be construed as feedback belong in feedback. Quite simply, if you want to tell the devs you want something to change, you post in feedback, or bug threads, DC threads, etc, where applicable. -snippety- You make some good points in your post. Earlier, I had drafted a thread requesting a change from "General Discussion" to "Warframe Discussion", to alleviate the 'general means everything' mentality. Encouraging them not to do something is worse than encouraging them to do something, that much is clear.That is, also, an inevitability of rules. People do not like rules, as a mass. In result, they want to avoid rules, and hate when people try to enforce them. To put it simply, there is no way for me to encourage proper thread posting without someone being angry about it. It is entirely impossible to do. The issue is just as much the community than it is the formation and enforcement of rules, no matter their wording, for the mass follows the mass. If users in general did exactly what was asked of them, then everyone would follow suit. That clearly does not exist here. There are a handful who do try to point people in the right direction, in the absence of ourselves, but even they are shot down constantly with hateful and bitter words. Why? Because they are different and they wanted to follow rules. There is no way to make everyone happy, and there is no way to make them happy when their thread is moved after they posted it in a place they wanted it to go. Because we know this, or at least I, I don't expect anything of them. If they want to follow-up with me later, all they need to do is PM me. I am not going to expect healthy PMs. Almost all PM's I receive are hateful in some way, regardless if I try to encourage healthy ones, regardless if I warned them about behavior they decide they should direct toward me. TL;DR Rules attempt to encourage regulation and order, but there is no way to make happy anyone who wishes not to follow them Also, based on your TL;DR, this thread does seem to be lacking in providing generalized terms for what General Discussion is. Issue being, you cannot provide broad examples without losing their meaning. If I said, "General Discussion is for discussing upcoming features yet to be implemented, player theories on lore and other in game objects, player preferences on weapons/factions/Warframes." A player would then ask, "But wouldn't those topics belong under feedback, Fan Zone, and Players Helping Players?" and they wouldn't be wrong. The issue is in how the topic is presented. Describing how a topic being presented becomes a certain section would result in a long explanation that even fewer people would read or even follow. By providing specific details, special cases are then left out, which would become potential issues later on, under strict interpretation, need be amended to this topic, resulting in an even longer document. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion-Shields Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 "Tulzscha Posted 01 April 2014 - 03:13 PM Lickity-Split, on 01 Apr 2014 - 11:36 AM, said: People mostly hang out in General... So community came to terms with "If you want your topic to be seen then post in General". That is a misguided way of thinking. Like I said - the subforums exist for a reason. Phoenix86, on 01 Apr 2014 - 3:12 PM, said: You cant deny that General Discussion has way more visibility than any other section... that's why ppl post here Letter Once more, with feeling: the subforums exist for a reason. General discussion is not for feedback, bug reports, requests for help, and other topic types specified in the original post of this thread." -- The misguided way of thinking seems to be that we encourage people to give their feedback, then tell them we don't want it where they put it, crack our whip every time we think they go wrong, and expect them to become happy Tenno. General Discussion section on game forums always means discussing their game to people, and no amount of holy rage will change that: It is a structural problem of the forums, and as long as we do not address it, we will likely weigh down moderators with routine tasks, and hamper their performance. There seems little value in trying to "teach" people a posteriori what they "did wrong", when the format encourages people to do these things. The section "General Discussion" is misleading at first glance, and people will neither care to read a giant post trying to regulate them, nor will they respect it; because it has nothing to do with what they want, and they are in disagreement anyway: They didn't mean to give DE feedback when they posted in General Discussion; they meant to get feedback from other players. By moving the post we would be taking their intent out of context, which tends to make people angry, unhappy, and rebellious, no matter how right or wrong they are. You don't invite people to church; then expect them not to pray but instead read the bible and come to the conclusion that they need to fix the plumbing. Our players are not okay with the current policy regarding General Discussion. They feel snubbed, regulated, and infringed in their perceived rights. They aren't interested in becoming part of a "megathread", because they think their contribution is unique and special, and they think that they can have their own thread, with their own feedback, because they feel they are an individual, and because they hate to be treated as a mass. They will not search for like threads before they post, or search for posts on what they "should not do", when the format seems to tell them clearly what to do. No matter what side of the argument we take, it boils down to the fact that we are not creating happy players through the current regulations and format. To show how to take this ad absurdum: "General discussion is not for feedback, bug reports, requests for help, and other topic types specified in the original post of this thread." What happens if we make this line pop up whenever someone enters General Discussion? -> People will have no idea what this section is actually meant for. If they think deeply about it, they will come to the conclusion that anything they write there can be interpreted as feedback, at which point it seems absurd for them to post here at all, in case they are familiar with the rules. They also don't care: They wanted to make a quick post, not spend an hour perusing unclear rules subject to interpretation, and end up having no influence where their posts ends up. TLDR: It might be more beneficial to tell players what they should do, and encourage their motivation; versus telling them what not to do and kill their motivation. Quote: Quand tu veux construire un bateau, ne commence pas par rassembler du bois, couper des planches et distribuer du travail, mais reveille au sein des hommes le desir de la mer grande et large. ~"When you want to build a ship, do not begin by gathering wood, cutting boards, and distributing work, but awaken within the heart of man the desire for the vast and endless sea" (Attributed to Saint-Exupéry) good post, and I am in full agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Letter13 Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 Added a bit about objective/audience to the opening post to help clarify how to determine if a thread is feedback or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J1ffyLub3 Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 to be general discussion, or not to be general discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaceace1288 Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 I'd suggest having this be required reading before you can post. Uhh, bad idea. That's like Youtube Copyright school. No one will actually read it if its required and forced upon them, and instead use search engines for 'quiz answers' and 'how to bypass...' . This will become especially true if it forces something bogus upon people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somedude1000 Posted July 8, 2015 Share Posted July 8, 2015 This will become especially true if it forces something bogus upon people. While I agree on not forcing it on people, these rules are in no way 'bogus', in fact, in order to create an account on warframe and therefore have access to the forums, you have already accepted them when hitting 'agree' in the EULA, if anyone had found these rules to be 'bogus', they should have had no reason to agree with the EULA and subsequently create an account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)R-Zab__v2 Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 How do I unfollow threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)IIIDevoidIII Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 How do I unfollow threads. This isn't really the place, but to the right of the title at the top of the page, there is a (Un)Follow button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezracor Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 can i post here or can i make my own thread? im new to the forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PsychedelicSnake Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 can i post here or can i make my own thread? im new to the forums It depends on the nature of your post. If you have a question about General Discussion, you can post it here. If not, you should make a separate thread elsewhere. Feedback about the game goes in the Feedback Subforums, Fan-related stuff (like fan art and general off-topic stuff) goes in the Extras Subforum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Draconis1981 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 ive read it and its still not 100 percent clear cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somedude1000 Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 (edited) ive read it and its still not 100 percent clear cut. Feel free to ask questions mate, after all this thread is here to explain where to post stuff, if something is unclear there's definitely peeps who would be willing to give you more details. If you feel it would be more comfortable, you could also perhaps try pm'ing a moderator. Edited August 3, 2015 by Somedude1000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)thricelement Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Thanks for that. Sorry for using the forum incorrectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drakonicwrfrmDrako Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 im super sorry but i think i posted in wrong forum tab thing but im new Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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