Grakata

[Tyrian3k]

In that video he was spraying the S#&$ out of things.

 

After I started using this gun, I noticed it is as accurate as a latron but with more recoil. Now if you just tap or burst fire, you can get a 3-burst headshot at any range.

 

So you're saying I should use this weapon like a Burston that deals 9 damage per shot?

 

If I can't take advantage of the high fire rate then what's the point of it? Firing bursts makes this gun even weaker than it already is.

 

With a Braton I can run around, spray and actually hit my targets.

 

As you say the it has almost the recoil of the Latron, which is totally inappropriate for a pea shooter like the Grakata.

[AscendantWyvern]

So you're saying I should use this weapon like a Burston that deals 9 damage per shot?

 

If I can't take advantage of the high fire rate then what's the point of it? Firing bursts makes this gun even weaker than it already is.

 

With a Braton I can run around, spray and actually hit my targets.

 

As you say the it has almost the recoil of the Latron, which is totally inappropriate for a pea shooter like the Grakata.

 

I agree, recoil in games like these need to convey the power in the weapon. So either the recoil or the damage can stay.

[mmSNAKE]

Grineer die just the same. *shrug* So do Infested. Ancients are the most resilient enemy of the game - not even Grineer Heavies come close to them. But, because you asked, I did a quick test - it takes me 40 out of 78 shots to kill a level 31 Toxic Ancient, so half a mag. How many shots does your Latron need?

 

PS: The Latron is one thing: ammoefficient. It shoots slowly, has lots of recoil, suffers from host-client delay due to latency, but it is probably the most ammo-efficient gun in the entire game. Why? Because it has the rifle ammo pool of 500 instead of the sniper pool. Not neccessarily a fair comparision - the Latron will defeat every other ranged weapon in ammo efficiency. It's like comparing RoF between Twin Vipers and the Snipetron. ;)

Latron has hardly any recoil. Take a look at guns in Counter Strike, that is recoil that takes some effort to manage. I can fire in succession and hit heads with this. I can put a fire rate mod on a latron to speed it up. On grakata it will make you waste your bullets more since the gun sprays.You are focusing too narrow scope. I used latron as an example. Also ammo efficiency is quite important. it doesn't have to be taken to an extreme extent like Latron but it needs to be somewhat taken into consideration. Gorgon suffers from it's consumption, this gun is worse, does less damage (over two and half times less), and the rate of fire does crap to compensate it's other shortbacks (spray and low base damage).

 

Also Vipers are hell lot better weapons than Snipetron. Hell almost anything is. Snipetron is down right bad for everything except defense maps vs Grineer and Corpus where you have a large area. In every other case Snipetron is a waste. Yes I can compare them, because rof is just one element that makes a weapon useful.

 

Lv 30 ancients are not high level. I said 40+, and 50+ Grineer. What's the point when you can kill a lv30 ancient with one or two Hek shots. Or not even 1/3 magazine of Gorgon. This gun stacks terribly vs several other weapons in this game. Not to mention among it's lacking damage shortcoming it also chews through ammo.

[Ced23Ric]

You are not understanding what I am saying.

 

People say: "Grakata is weak and shyte!"  And I disagree. I laid out why, and I explained it.

 

The reaction was: "Try to kill Ancients, see how many magazines you need." So I picked the highest Infested mission on the map, 30 - 40.

 

Now you are saying, that data is inadmissable, because ... I don't know. It doesn't count, I guess. You lined out level 40 Infested, I went and killed level 40 Infested, an entire Exterminate mission, using no ammobox, no melee. Provded screenshots of the completion screen and the mission summary. You are not providing data, I am. I explain my position, you just ... disagree with it. I can prove my point, did so above. The Grakata is worse? It's also faster, without spinup. It kills faster. Dead things don't hurt you. Dead things require less cover being used to survive.

 

Next up, as I already said, putting RoF on the Grakata is reducing resource efficiency to raise DPS. Not a good path to go down and not necessary. Investing in raw per-bullet-damage brings you a lot further with the Grakata - as I laid out before. Yeah, ammo efficiency is important (although you could use ammoboxes - and probably need to in Defense missions (if you use weapons instead of abilities to do those)). Now tell me if being able to kill ~120 Infested, including Toxic Ancients, Healers and Disruptors and Chargers, Crawlers, Runners, Leapers, using no kill-abilities, no melee, with only the starting ammo of the Grakata and the DSGs ... how much more efficient than "Gets the job done." do I need to be?

 

The Grakata is not a bad rifle. It is not junk, it is not worse than others. It is actually alot better than others, because it amplifies positive effects a lot faster, due to it's inate high RoF and decent clip size. It's TTK (time to kill) is lower than other guns. Recoil can be managed easily. Long range engagements are completely feasible. The complaints on how "inaccurate" the weapon is are only valid if the same is said about the Burston, Gorgon, Braton, etc. pp. - those guns aren't exactly sniper rifles, either.

 

PS: I answered your Grineer addendum. Those die even faster than Infested, due to the weakspot and how AP/MS/Base damage interact. It's headshots all around, with less than half a second of fire necessary.

PPS: If being able to chew through level 30 to 45 stock mission enemies with ease and without needing ammo boxes isn't good enough, tell me what the standard is a weapon has to achieve.

[Shwoooop]

You are not understanding what I am saying.

 

People say: "Grakata is weak and shyte!"  And I disagree. I laid out why, and I explained it.

 

The reaction was: "Try to kill Ancients, see how many magazines you need." So I picked the highest Infested mission on the map, 30 - 40.

 

Now you are saying, that data is inadmissable, because ... I don't know. It doesn't count, I guess. You lined out level 40 Infested, I went and killed level 40 Infested, an entire Exterminate mission, using no ammobox, no melee. Provded screenshots of the completion screen and the mission summary. You are not providing data, I am. I explain my position, you just ... disagree with it. I can prove my point, did so above. The Grakata is worse? It's also faster, without spinup. It kills faster. Dead things don't hurt you. Dead things require less cover being used to survive.

 

Next up, as I already said, putting RoF on the Grakata is reducing resource efficiency to raise DPS. Not a good path to go down and not necessary. Investing in raw per-bullet-damage brings you a lot further with the Grakata - as I laid out before. Yeah, ammo efficiency is important (although you could use ammoboxes - and probably need to in Defense missions (if you use weapons instead of abilities to do those)). Now tell me if being able to kill ~120 Infested, including Toxic Ancients, Healers and Disruptors and Chargers, Crawlers, Runners, Leapers, using no kill-abilities, no melee, with only the starting ammo of the Grakata and the DSGs ... how much more efficient than "Gets the job done." do I need to be?

 

The Grakata is not a bad rifle. It is not junk, it is not worse than others. It is actually alot better than others, because it amplifies positive effects a lot faster, due to it's inate high RoF and decent clip size. It's TTK (time to kill) is lower than other guns. Recoil can be managed easily. Long range engagements are completely feasible. The complaints on how "inaccurate" the weapon is are only valid if the same is said about the Burston, Gorgon, Braton, etc. pp. - those guns aren't exactly sniper rifles, either.

 

PS: I answered your Grineer addendum. Those die even faster than Infested, due to the weakspot and how AP/MS/Base damage interact. It's headshots all around, with less than half a second of fire necessary.

PPS: If being able to chew through level 30 to 45 stock mission enemies with ease and without needing ammo boxes isn't good enough, tell me what the standard is a weapon has to achieve.

I think the biggest beef people have is the return of investment. 500 alloy plates is a lot of resources to spend on a weapon when you can get equal or better performance while spending less.

[mmSNAKE]

I said level 40+ infested. You won't see those outside of defense missions. Go to xini, go to wave 10+ and see where your gun stacks. Everything early level is inadmissible because any weapon on good mods will kill better, and better guns will kill even faster. Hek is an overkill for everything up to lv 45 or so.

 

Everything that grakata can do, Gorgon, Latron, Hek, Akbolto, Boltor do better. That was the point.

[Ced23Ric]

I think the biggest beef people have is the return of investment. 500 alloy plates is a lot of resources to spend on a weapon when you can get equal or better performance while spending less.

 

Since the only input to obtain resources is time, all resource value approaches zero as time progresses. I would not see Alloy Plate as a factor to be taken into consideration, because eventually, just by playing, resources will come out of your ears.

 

 

I said level 40+ infested. You won't see those outside of defense missions. Go to xini, go to wave 10+ and see where your gun stacks.

 

You enjoy running Defense Missions with weapons as your main strategy. You are already running along the wrong path right there. But, that is fine. I keep enjoying Wave 30 Defense they way I play. :)

 

Everything that grakata can do, Gorgon, Latron, Hek, Akbolto, Boltor do better. That was the point.

 

Any bolt weapon loses alot of DPS if you are not the host due to projectiles not spawning. There is hit delay, lack of crits and the Akimbo Boltos also have a reduced firing rate and true effective range, walking into lower proc-frequence of elemental effects. Hek's nice, sure. But Hek can't kill more than six dudes before reloading, and can't kill them as fast as other weapons. The Grakata shines with TTK - and that value is low for the Grakata.

 

It's okay if that aspect eludes you, I am not here to convince you. I'm just here to show the other side of the equation, where the Grakata works fine. One of us has to be wrong, I guess. So i I can produce good results with the Grakata, especially with a low TTK, I would be right ... and you would be wrong. You don't have to change your ways, you don't have to use the Grakata.

 

But you would still be wrong.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Ced23Ric

[mmSNAKE]

Hek Can kill anything bunched up in one shot, only the gorgon is better at killing the small trash quicker. Otherwise Hek will out damage it, and outperform it. Come Xini at 10+, I would abandon every gun save for the Hek. And I'd give up on that too eventually and start with Scindo/Gram.

Projectiles not spawning is not a gun setback, it's a technical problem and therefore is inadmissible when arguing balance. Hit delay is also the same, crits are pointless with most firearms safe for perhaps Snipetron or Latron, all the other ones have too low of base rate for the mod to be any use for it. Again like I said if Grakata had a very high crit chance, the gun would be fine as it is.

Akbolto fire pretty damn fast(no fire rate mod necessary), they will kill anything faster than Grakata (you have to fire 1-2 times to kill most trash up to lv 40). Effective range is crap on Grakata as well, unless you burst, in which case you are throwing away the one thing that the gun has going for it (fire rate). In any case effective range isn't an issue, due to rush mod and all the small size of tiles, it's easy to close the gap and get into effective range. Bolto type weapons have a decent effective range, regardles. If you can't do small projectile prediction that is a player deficiency not the weapon.

You can call grakata a good weapon, it may work fine for you, but compared to what other weapons do, it DOES NOT hold up.

Edited April 21, 2013 by mmSNAKE

[Tyrian3k]

The Braton still needs less time to kill enemies than the Grakata and on top of that can kill more enemies with a single magazine while using less ammo.

 

Some numbers:

 

DPS: Braton: 192.1; Grakata: 180

 

Damage per magazine: Braton: 765; Grakata: 540

 

On top of that the Braton is far easier to control while firing, making it the more accurate weapon.

 

I don't think I have to say it, but the Braton is obviously more ammo efficient as well...

 

You can argue with that by saying "with the right mods", but if you put the exact same mods on a Braton you still have the Braton as the superior weapon.

 

The Grakata loses on all aspects and in all thinkable situations against a Braton. That's a fact. Nothing you will say will chage that.

[SilverBones]

Since the only input to obtain resources is time, all resource value approaches zero as time progresses. I would not see Alloy Plate as a factor to be taken into consideration, because eventually, just by playing, resources will come out of your ears.

 

 

 

In fairness Ced, you and I are both Grand Masters. I know for sure that I don't have the same value attached to in-game resources as people who don't have a founders package. I have an &#!-load of components too, but that is only because I used my metric crap-ton of platinum to buy most of these weapons. The grind for components is a valid concern.

 

I hate to say it, but 'feel-to-feel' I have to side with the masses on this. The Grakata seems a little lacking, especially given it's cost in time and grind - time being the most valuable resource you can give and all.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Lv 30 ancients are not high level. I said 40+, and 50+ Grineer. What's the point when you can kill a lv30 ancient with one or two Hek shots. Or not even 1/3 magazine of Gorgon. This gun stacks terribly vs several other weapons in this game. Not to mention among it's lacking damage shortcoming it also chews through ammo.

It's rather disingenuous to use overlevelled mobs that only appear on high level defense missions as your standard of measurement, because most guns start to break down when you're dealing with level fifty mobs. And because most players won't ever see such mobs.

[Ced23Ric]

My point is not that the Grakata is the best gun in the world. That'd be outrageous. It's simply not a bad gun.

[V101]

i just tested the weapon more in depth, supercharged with maxed mods, and its pretty amazing, but a tiny bit underpower, i mean a very tiny bit, things i sayd would actually make this weapon greater, just changing dmg to 10 and add an polarity slot, or just adding a polarity, nothing else needed to be changed, accuracy its fine, you just need to handle it, tap-shots and its a mega fast burston that you can pray'n'spray if anything comes closer

[mmSNAKE]

It's rather disingenuous to use overlevelled mobs that only appear on high level defense missions as your standard of measurement, because most guns start to break down when you're dealing with level fifty mobs. And because most players won't ever see such mobs.

Because everything else dies too quickly. Whats the point of gauging it to something other weapons will overkill? Fire hek at lv 30 mobs across tile, they all die.

[V101]

yeah, not he hek, doesnt happens with the hek, i can kill lv 55 ancients with like 3 shots, lv 55 normals with a single shot

[Syaniide]

You're all wrong... the grakata is easily replaced by the lato (not the aklato that weapon is trash). Its far superior... I only have to reload four times to kill ancients and it has superb accuracy. Honestly why would you ever use any other weapon. It even makes the Hek look like it's useless 2nd cousin who just can't get right. I say we all just stop trying to win cool points and just go with the most practical weapon. The superior Lato.

 

Lato > All

[SilverBones]

You're all wrong... the grakata is easily replaced by the lato (not thby bye aklato that weapon is trash). Its far superior... I only have to reload four times to kill ancients and it has superb accuracy. Honestly why would you ever use any other weapon. It even makes the Hek look like it's useless 2nd cousin who just can't get right. I say we all just stop trying to win cool points and just go with the most practical weapon. The superior Lato.

 

Lato > All

Winning ^

[Kahruvel]

Progression of events:

 

1. Mob decides something arbitrarily.

2. Ced disagrees.

3. Mob demands evidence.

4. Ced provides evidence.

5. Mob is severely offended that someone proves them wrong.

6. Mob drums out Ced and decides they're right anyway.

 

Goodness, this is like watching an honest person argue with Fox News anchors.

[Tyrian3k]

Progression of events:

 

1. Mob decides something arbitrarily.

2. Ced disagrees.

3. Mob demands evidence.

4. Ced provides evidence.

5. Mob is severely offended that someone proves them wrong.

6. Mob drums out Ced and decides they're right anyway.

 

Goodness, this is like watching an honest person argue with Fox News anchors.

 

Just clarifying that I'm not part of that mob...

[Vanloth]

Progression of events:

 

1. Mob decides something arbitrarily.

2. Ced disagrees.

3. Mob demands evidence.

4. Ced provides evidence.

5. Mob is severely offended that someone proves them wrong.

6. Mob drums out Ced and decides they're right anyway.

 

Goodness, this is like watching an honest person argue with Fox News anchors.

It's a weapon that is easily outclassed in both efficiency, damage, burst, and cost by almost every other weapon in the game. Trying to argue that it does well against level thirty mobs is stupid since a crush would still be doing good damage at that point, and every other weapon you could compare it to is going to be overkill. The entire point of weapon scaling is that it does well against the super high level mobs. If it doesn't drop high level mobs well, then why would I use it?

[Ced23Ric]

It's a weapon that is easily outclassed in both efficiency, damage, burst, and cost by almost every other weapon in the game. Trying to argue that it does well against level thirty mobs is stupid since a crush would still be doing good damage at that point, and every other weapon you could compare it to is going to be overkill. The entire point of weapon scaling is that it does well against the super high level mobs. If it doesn't drop high level mobs well, then why would I use it?

 

Warframe - the game that is only, and exclusively about Xini Wave 10+. Using it against the highest mission of each faction is pointless. TTK comparisions are void. Also, wild statements about how the Grakata performs in comparison to "almost every other weapon". Heh. :)

 

I don't know when you became so bitter, but the game is more than farming Defense. For your purposes, it may not be the case, and that is fine. But as long as you don't see that an isolated scenario with an isolated enemy on an isolated map is no grounds for a legitimate comparision of an item that can be and is supposed to be used in every mission of the game, your entire argument is moot. You are fabricating the scale so it suits your needs. Fine for yourself, pointless for every gamer not doing what you are doing.

 

PS: But, I recorded a level 40 Infested Rescue aswell, will upload later. Y'know. Just to prove that the Grakata still kills them. It doesn't suddenly stop doing that.

[mmSNAKE]

So my comparison of the stats of other weapons to Grakata is arbitrary? His evidence isn't complete because it's one sided. Until you compare it how it performs to other weapons you can't say it's a good gun. Compared to many other weapons in the game it does not hold, especially in possible total damage.

 

So lets, do some small basic stats here.

 

Total Damage: 600*9 =5400

DPS: 20*9 = 180 dps (not going to include reload time for the calculation to keep it simple)

 

Now let's take Gorgon.

 

Total Damage: 24*590 = 14160

DPS: 24*12.5 = 300

 

Now lets do Braton

 

Total Damage = 17*545 = 9265

DPS = 17*11.3 = 192.1

 

Grakata is worse than the regular Braton, in both DPS and total damage.

Now I could calculate the extra bit with reload time, but it wouldn't make a difference, it would still come up short. Want proof? There it is. If you want I'll do it with crit chance as well, as long as I know what base crit chance for Grakata is. From what I've seen it's not high enough to make a difference.

[Vanloth]

 

Warframe - the game that is only, and exclusively about Xini Wave 10+. Using it against the highest mission of each faction is pointless. TTK comparisions are void. Also, wild statements about how the Grakata performs in comparison to "almost every other weapon". Heh. :)

 

I don't know when you became so bitter, but the game is more than farming Defense. For your purposes, it may not be the case, and that is fine. But as long as you don't see that an isolated scenario with an isolated enemy on an isolated map is no grounds for a legitimate comparision of an item that can be and is supposed to be used in every mission of the game, your entire argument is moot. You are fabricating the scale so it suits your needs. Fine for yourself, pointless for every gamer not doing what you are doing.

 

PS: But, I recorded a level 40 Infested Rescue aswell, will upload later. Y'know. Just to prove that the Grakata still kills them. It doesn't suddenly stop doing that.

You do realize there are basically three mission types in this game that matter when it comes to weapon choice, correct? Defense gives you the most mods and experience, and usually the most materials as well. Alert missions hand out credits like they're candy, and boss missions drop materials and blueprints.

Arguing that you can use a mediocore weapon in rescue and do okay is a moot point, because you can use ANY weapon in those missions. I could run this game with a Lato and claim that the Lato was on par with the Akbolto, that doesn't mean I'm right.

I don't need to post proof to back my claims because many people have already done this, which is something you seem to be ignoring the existence of.

 

Also, your argument might be more compelling if you weren't so condescending to everyone who disagreed with you.

Edited April 21, 2013 by Vanloth

[CaptainSomalia]

Progression of events:

 

1. Mob decides something arbitrarily.

2. Ced disagrees.

3. Mob demands evidence.

4. Ced provides evidence.

5. Mob is severely offended that someone proves them wrong.

6. Mob drums out Ced and decides they're right anyway.

 

Goodness, this is like watching an honest person argue with Fox News anchors.

Really? Because as far as I can tell from reading this last page, Ced is trying to argue that the Grakata is somehow a decent weapon, despite the "mob" pointing out that it is inferior in every aspect to the Braton, the cheapest and most easily attained gun in the game.

[Ced23Ric]

So my comparison of the stats of other weapons to Grakata is arbitrary? His evidence isn't complete because it's one sided. Until you compare it how it performs to other weapons you can't say it's a good gun.

 

You still do not understand my point. I am saying, the Grakata is okay. Never once did I state it's superiority. In fact, I even said...

 

My point is not that the Grakata is the best gun in the world. That'd be outrageous. It's simply not a bad gun.

 

To that effect, I am attempting to produce the evidence that the Grakata meets your specifications. I started with 30 - 55 Corpus. Wasn't good enough. You mention Infested at 40 and Grineer (at 50, admittedly). I went with 30 - 40 Infested. Wasn't good enough. Without a high level alert or mission around for Grineer, I made a video on 25 - 35 Grineer, the highest I could find. Wasn't good enough. You said, Infested 40+, below don't count. So I went with an Infested 40 alerts, where Ancients are 41. Isn't good enough, because wrong game mode.

 

I am not being condescending, good sir. I am submitting to your every demand, showing my findings, only to find them dismissed. In addition, you are not even giving me the time of the day, where I am attempting to meet your expectations with every new piece of proof to my claim I pose. Now, with that in mind, who is behaving unfairly and elitist towards whom? And this extends not just to you, mmSnake, but the accumulated group people of bashing the Grakata.

 

With all due respect and apologies, I cannot take your insinuation of condescending behaviour seriously. I am merely not going with the stream here, because I cannot confirm the idea of the Grakata being junk, weak, useless, garbage and in severe need of a buff.