Ult Spamming Is Really A Problem

[TwiceDead]

But once again, going to wave 10 does not count as 'nerf ults'. Getto T4 survival 1hour + and then come back, please.

DE doesn't even balance past level 45-50 enemies, past that point balance is no longer a discussion, DE stated this themselves.

 

Get with the program.

 

On-topic:

Yes it is a problem and has been since the dawn of time. This kind of game mechanic shouldn't exist on the scale it currently does, but it's been around for so long now that if DE dared trying to limit or remove it, the outrage would be IN-@(*()$-SANE. 

 

You're better off playing a different game if you want skill-based and engaging gameplay. 

Edited October 6, 2014 by TwiceDead

[inappropriatename5818]

Go play any other generic shooter then. Nobody will use abilities there and you can shoot things to your heart out.   

 

I'm sick and tired of people constantly complaining "this is op, that is op, nerf this nerf that".  

 

There is always a solo option.   

[Otakuwolf]

@OP

They tried CDs before in closed beta.

It sucked.  Hard.

Missions turned into an incredibly slow slog where you would go into a room, nuke it, then wait at the door for the 45 to 90 seconds for your abilities to recharge before doing it to the next room.

Repeat that for every single room in the game.

That's what would happen again.  And then there would be raging for any players that rush into the next room before CDs have all gone away.

And tell me, why wouldn't players play that way?

Because in a CD system, going into the next room before you can use your abilities is just a stupid move that decreases survivablity and weakens you.

There is literally no incentive to go into the next room until you can wipe it out with powers.

And then you have abilities that are good only because you can spam them.

Such as Vaubans Tesla, or Nekros Desecrate.

Think of how worthless quite a few abilities (and by extension frames) would be without the ability to just spam them repeatedly to the point that they are forced to be effective purely by the amount of times it was used.

It would toss a lot of abilities even further into the trash heap than they are currently.

And lets break it down, shall we?

Here are the benefits of a CD system:

-No more ability spam(which in some cases is actually a downside)

Here are the cons of a CD system:

-Slows missions to an unbearably slow slog

-Makes some abilities, and frames, completely worthless

-Makes anything past mid-level content annoying (not harder, just more annoying)

-Completely kills the usefulness and effectiveness of abilities in late-game.

So not really any benefits, but a lot of downsides.

And at least an energy system doesn't incentivize sitting around for a minute and a half at every single door you come across.

With the current system you're actually encouraged to go into the next room and kill things, regardless if you have energy, because hey: the enemy can drop energy orbs letting you use abilities.

Compared to a CD system, the energy system is a lot better and fits the pace of gameplay a lot more.

And honestly a CD system wouldn't do too much to fix your problems.

All it would mean is that you would only be able to shoot at the very tail end of a wave (though if they had boltor primes you wouldn't even be able to do that), and then get yelled at because you aren't letting their CDs go away first.

And that's not even touching on how hard it would be to balance that type of system, and what about all of the mods that affect energy cost?  What would they be left doing?

 

Funny how you keep talking about "nuking this nuking that", you never mention other abilities but nukes hence proving my theory which players are "too much dependant" from this kind of ability (Hek, there is a reason why a great majority of the warframe population are stomping Rhinos lately) and can't think about a more "constructive" way to use those.

Maybe some warframes depend from theyr abilities and i'll give you that, but saying "Warframe X depends on it's abilities" is different than saying "Warframe X depends on it's ult", Nova is a prime example of this while her Antimatter Drop is more than sufficent to clear up enemy hordes 90% of the players always and only prefer to instead go for MP (and NEVER think about giving SOME support to the slower frames using the wormhole, which is instead used as a "troll" tool) because "it's easyer" (which is).

Other examples ? Ember's "ring of fire" is a nice aoe ability too and the fireball "stays on place" for some time too but what do people do instead ? World of Fire ! And when appear two enemies that can be taken down with a simple Fireball ? Still World of fire !

 

Of course people didn't like and wasn't able to play with Cooldowns, because it's become WAY TOO MUCH dependant from the ults, and as you also say in your post about "Nuking" a room rather than for example just kill that one or two enemies in your way and keep going with the objective if they are too tough, (or like i do "slash dash/wormhole thorough it" because yes, that's not just a damage ability and Excalibro isn't good just at radial blinding and Nova isn't good just at MPing).

People is simply too lazy to think and put some effort in what they do rather than just pressing one single button over and over again, to the point of being completely unable to play or do anything differently in a game that has way more to offer than spamming one ability.

[Tsukinoki]

Funny how you keep talking about "nuking this nuking that", you never mention other abilities but nukes hence proving my theory which players are "too much dependant" from this kind of ability (Hek, there is a reason why a great majority of the warframe population are stomping Rhinos lately) and can't think about a more "constructive" way to use those.

Maybe you could actually read my post?

I only mentioned nuking and wiping once a piece(so twice in my entire post).

I didn't constantly moan and complain that it would stop nuking.

And in fact I do mention some other abilities by name: Tesla and Desecrate (and another fact: they were the only abilities I named and I didn't really mention nukes all that much outside of 2 sentences).

I mentioned that without the ability to spam things some abilities would become completely worthless as they are only good when they can be spammed, such as Vaubans Tesla, or Nekros Desecrate (seriously, think how annoying it would be if he could only desecrate once every 5 seconds or more and therefore miss a vast majority of the bodies).

And even if you decide to go off and say "Well, just give them a 1 second CD on those abilities!" then you run into even more ability spamming than we have now.  You just replace 4 with another button that will be spammed to get them through everything, and really what's the difference at that point compared to what we have now?

I also mention how it makes the vast majority of abilities useless come mid-to-late game (check out the "cons" section I mentioned in my post) because most abilities are damage abilities without much(or any) utility to them.  Meaning that you either have to spam them to even do the bare minimum of damage with them, or you might as well not even equip them because of how worthless they become.

And even with the ones that do have utility you still need to use them over and over and over again in quick succession come late-game to actually have them have much of an effect at all.  Especially when it comes to the support powers, such as Rhinos Roar.  Its a great ability come late-game, but mostly because a Rhino specced into it can keep it up for pretty much for-ever.  Without that its usefullness drops like a rock and it doesn't become worth it to spec into it at all.

So please, actually read what I posted and not just cherry-pick out 2 sentences where I talk about nuking and wiping and then pretend that that was my entire argument.

Makes you look unable to defend your post and ideas against any of the points I brought up and about how a CD system in this game is objectively worse than an energy system.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[DSpite]

My usual broken record sounding response to this is the same as always, that being that players do "ult spamming" in missions because it works, same reason as to why we used to use a Penta to run Defense, because we had a ton of ammo, and it worked. If having an entire team hiding on top of a crate will work, we will do that. If just running through entire levels staying invisible worked, we will do that.

 

If you "nerf" one fad. a new one will just appear.

 

People don't always do this, but they will always pull out their "top build" when they just want to get something over and done with, like an Alert for Forma, or a special event, I mean, that's the point.

 

I mentioned once how disappointed I was when on a larger defense map I could actually see distant doors opening, disgorge a line of mobs, then close again. It hits you that you are playing something that is closer to a Tower Defense game then a coop shooter. I already have Sanctum on Steam if I want to play that way, it was a little jarring. I guess I wanted to feel swarmed by mobs, and not watch them march single file towards me along the exact same path every single time ... but I'm digressing.

 

The way to stop people using a single tactic on mobs is for the mobs to stop coming at us in the same predictable manner, with the same known pathing and behaviour. Easier said then done, though.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2014 by DSpite

[Inez]

So the OP sat thru 10 waves of a defense being unhappy. Does he not know how to abort a mission? Does he not know how to leave at wave 5? Did he try asking the Nova and Ember to stop?

 

Oh, who am I kidding. He wanted something to whine about on the forums. Mission accomplished.

[notionphil]

OP, the solution to this is not preventing ult spam, but instead making it so that ult spam does not 'win' every situation.

 

This is already happening.

 

Look at the changes after the Forget Better Ai - We Need Better Dumb Enemies thread. Look at T4 Vor...how does ult spam work on him? Or the constant whines about how OP the new infested are (healers/disruptors) and their ability to block AoE damage. The Corrupted are getting a rework/new mobs. All factions are getting new elite/heavy mobs (juggernaut, riot moa). A new faction is coming.

 

I am willing to bet plat that 6 months from now, every faction will have some situation where ult spam does not save the day. So, let Nova and Ember spam their ults and handle the trashmobs...you go kill the (future) elites.

[ThePresident777]

It's good that the enemies are getting upgraded.  But, if the spawn code remains messed up as it is now, then, the real problem will persist, possibly in a different form.  Guns wreck hordes better than ult spam does but you can only wreck what is there.  If the enemy doesn't spawn, then nobody does anything.  Which is yet one more reason why I find OPs such as this to be such a fail.  There is an underlying problem that is possibly either unseen, ignored, or exploited so that people can complain that Warframe isn't Dark Souls enough for them.

Edited October 7, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Inez]

You realize why DE keeps spawns low, right? Too much xp per time spent. I'm sure you were around when they had the survival weekend event, enemies spawned like MAD and the affinity flowed like rain in Seattle. Then they launched actual survival missions where the enemy spawns were toned down, and have been toned more since. And then you have the void survival spawns which are simply pitiful, making it one of the most boring game modes in Warframe. No one ever does void survival for fun, they do it strictly for the rewards. 

 

At the end of the day, Warframe is a giant treadmill. And they don't want the treadmill going too fast.

[LukeAura]

But, if the spawn code remains messed up as it is now, then, the real problem will persist, possibly in a different form.  Guns wreck hordes better than ult spam does but you can only wreck what is there.  If the enemy doesn't spawn, then nobody does anything.  Which is yet one more reason why I find OPs such as this to be such a fail.  There is an underlying problem that is possibly either unseen, ignored, or exploited so that people can complain that Warframe isn't Dark Souls enough for them.

Guns don't burn down villages! Skyrim Joke I am sorry.

Many Ults can hit a good distance, and go through walls, and generally one shot most low/mid level enemies where a large majority of the player grind takes place. And most aren't enemy count capped so throwing more in to a screen of death isn't going to solve the problem. It'll make the problem necessary. Guns only wreck hordes better when Ults start to drop off in effectiveness, but since most people grind for mods/resources in lower levels because its faster, this isn't really seen as often as it should. 

The lack of Scaling rewards is more broken than anything. 

 

[(PSN)Folkeye]

So the OP sat thru 10 waves of a defense being unhappy. Does he not know how to abort a mission? Does he not know how to leave at wave 5? Did he try asking the Nova and Ember to stop?

 

Oh, who am I kidding. He wanted something to whine about on the forums. Mission accomplished.

 

Also take into consideration the OP might have been doing a mission for a specific reward, which means you have 10 rounds on the countdown until you can leave. In that case, you're stuck unless you want to abort and try again.

Edited October 7, 2014 by (PS4)Folkeye

[inappropriatename5818]

Also take into consideration the OP might have been doing a mission for a specific reward, which means you have 10 rounds on the countdown until you can leave. In that case, you're stuck unless you want to abort and try again.

Yeah, poor guy was "stuck" in a game where he didn't have to do anything. Just go make a cup of coffee or something, go to the toilet, then do longer missions where ult spamming doesn't work anymore if it bothers you that much OP

[ThePresident777]

It wouldn't surprise me if DE considers the spawn code to be some sort of XP regulator.  But I think that is a terrible approach to XP because the spawns are a matter of player preference and XP can be dealt with directly by normalizing it across spawn scenarios.  So it's unnecessary and counter productive to do so indirectly via spawn code.  The same can be said for mods, or any drop.  Although DE often achieves surprising and positive results via indirection, it can be counter productive, especially when it runs counter to strong, or divisive, player preferences.  The direct approach has it's merits too.

 

Since there is a sharp divide in the player base in terms of spawn rates and sizes, I think DE should create missions to appeal to these differences, something like enemy elite mode missions, in addition to horde mode missions.  It's not cost effective to spam AoE Damage against a tough enemy squad.  You're liable to not get enough energy out of them to maintain the spam.  It'll take too long to kill them and there are too few of them so the energy return does not sustain the spam.  AoE damage ults are really only worth using against hordes of mooks because their quick death and increased numbers returns sufficient energy to sustain the spectacle, and many of us do enjoy a good spectacle.

 

This could also give low energy powers a valid use.  Even though they are applicable to only a few individuals, making them cost effective against tough squads can make them fun, and valid, for players that prefer tough squad mode versus horde mode.

 

Tough and mook are relative here.  I'm not attempting to suggest that hordes not have elites or not increase in level over time.  In fact, there can be a mixed mode for good fun too.

 

And, another thought just occured, perhpas not the best place to say it but I think it's related somehow.  Enemy AI has been brought into the discussion, and I think it applies to tough squads versus mook hordes, I think the tougher enemies should have the better AI since better AI is more elite than dumber AI.  It's only fitting that elites, such as tough squads, have the better AI relative to recruits or mooks or whatever you want to call them.  Although, it would be entertaining to see some random mooks with better AI and some random elites with dumb AI for the value of surprise and variety; the good old mail room clerk to CEO myth vs. well connected idtiot scenario.  This would also make the enemies more interesting than bullet sponges.  Nothing wrong with bullet sponges, it's just that not everybody wants them all the time as the only option.

Edited October 9, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Janzer]

I've always felt like playing solo, each frame works pretty well with their powers and available weaponry. When in a group, its like having four Hulks or something.

 

Ever since my first introduction to one frame's Ultimate decimating all the mobs up to a certain level, I have felt that Ultimates while perfectly fine unrestricted in Solo play, definitely leave room for unbalanced gameplay when in a "team".

 

Example. A mastery rank 13 Ash was in a mission with me the other night. Maybe just for the lulz, they decided to spam Bladestorm on every single enemy, and I do mean single, that they encountered.

 

I had the Sheev as my weapon of choice for this mission.

 

We ended the mission and without surprise the Ash had over 400 kills and 37% damage. I with melee only and the Sheev had 30% damage and about 250+ kills. The other two Tenno were about 100, and less for the last person.

 

What does this show? It shows how easily any level of mastery ranked player, can decide to consciously ruin the entertainment for the others in the party. Using an excuse like "well I just wanted to rush through the mission as quick as possible", is purely indicative of a selfish nature, which is fine, but in that case there is Solo mode for those that want to kill everything in sight without being "slowed down" by other players in the party.

 

My proposed solution, which is not a popular idea in the least and will never ever be implemented because it's too radical and yet simple, is to limit Ultimates in multiplayer. A cooldown timer would greatly help people to have some tactical reason to use an Ult, versus blindly pressing 4.

 

Alternately, they could be available as a scaling factor based on Mastery Rank. The higher the Mastery, the more times per mission an Ultimate can be used. So for Rank 0 players they can use their Ultimate 1 time per mission. For the higher ranks it might be something more along the lines of a max cap on how many times an Ultimate can be used in multiplayer, but that's for someone else to figure out.

 

In regular missions it would be that scenario. In defense missions, having a once per round would be interesting, Iike the idea. For survival I could see one Ultimate per every 5 minutes of time, usage.

 

I don't see any change happening with the Ultimate system that DE has spoken of lately, so I can only hope eh? NAAAAAAaaaaahhhh. I'll just play the game and let the people that want to spam to win, spam away.

 

There's more than one mission out there to play Tenno :D

[Dolomighty]

Absolutely ridiculous. Ult spamming isn't a problem in and of itself, and as other have said they tried this and the only thing it accomplished was making everyone miserable and everything take longer. If a frame's 4 is way too strong with certain setups they can consider addressing it, but how something performs against crowds of useless cannon-fodder is not an indicator of how good it is.

 

Also, someone earlier in this thread stated that good players don't rely on their powers. If you honestly believe that, you shouldn't be talking about matters of balance, that's like saying a good player shouldn't need guns in a shooter, or that if you use combos in fighting games you must suck at them. What's the point of using a frame then? Are you hoping they'll take one look at your wholly unique red-and-black color scheme and die of a heart attack?

[Otakuwolf]

Also, someone earlier in this thread stated that good players don't rely on their powers. If you honestly believe that, you shouldn't be talking about matters of balance, that's like saying a good player shouldn't need guns in a shooter, or that if you use combos in fighting games you must suck at them. What's the point of using a frame then? Are you hoping they'll take one look at your wholly unique red-and-black color scheme and die of a heart attack?

 

That wasn't me for sure because i sayd good players don't DEPEND on theyr powers, which is different.

[Dolomighty]

That wasn't me for sure because i sayd good players don't DEPEND on theyr powers, which is different.

 

How is that any different? The powers are there specifically to be used and depended on, so naturally if your frame's abilities cannot be depended on it's a bad frame.

[Otakuwolf]

How is that any different? The powers are there specifically to be used and depended on, so naturally if your frame's abilities cannot be depended on it's a bad frame.

 

You RELY on a power when for you it's one tool among the many at your disposal, and if it "breaks" you can eighter use it differently or change tactic.

You DEPEND on a power when even if you have many tools that is the only one you're able to use, and if it breaks you are unable to do anything else.

 

Basically you DEPEND on something in the moment you can't "play" anymore without that something.

[Dolomighty]

You RELY on a power when for you it's one tool among the many at your disposal, and if it "breaks" you can eighter use it differently or change tactic.

You DEPEND on a power when even if you have many tools that is the only one you're able to use, and if it breaks you are unable to do anything else.

 

Basically you DEPEND on something in the moment you can't "play" anymore without that something.

 

When you're at double digit waves of T4D, yes, you are going to be DEPENDing on your skill(s). That is what enables you to get that far in the first place, whatever you consider skill isn't going to protect that pod from the stream of miniature nuclear warheads that is a Level 50 Heavy Gunner's shots. So no, I would argue that a skilled player would effectively use whatever it is they have at their disposal to succeed, rather than pretending that curbstomping units on Mercury survival is somehow an indicator of personal ability and knowledge of the game's mechanics.

[Otakuwolf]

When you're at double digit waves of T4D, yes, you are going to be DEPENDing on your skill(s). That is what enables you to get that far in the first place, whatever you consider skill isn't going to protect that pod from the stream of miniature nuclear warheads that is a Level 50 Heavy Gunner's shots. So no, I would argue that a skilled player would effectively use whatever it is they have at their disposal to succeed, rather than pretending that curbstomping units on Mercury survival is somehow an indicator of personal ability and knowledge of the game's mechanics.

 

Like it takes skill to press one button to obliterate an entire room :P

[endymion7]

Like it takes skill to press one button to obliterate an entire room :P

 

If we're talking about Dolomighty's "double digit waves of T4D," you're going to have a rough time "obliterating" an entire room with anything. Instead, you're going to be relying more on abilities that prevent enemies from killing you first, such as Radial Blind, Snow Globe, and even Molecular Prime. The entire run ends up depending on how long can you maintain your crowd controls.

 

 

Also I feel like the posts that discussed closed beta's cooldowns should get a little bit more attention:

 

The problem with this is that they tried this before in closed beta and everyone hated it.  It didn't actually stop people from spamming it, they just door camped until the cooldown was over, or tried not to kill the last enemy in the wave so they could have it by the next one.

 

@OP

They tried CDs before in closed beta.

It sucked.  Hard.

Missions turned into an incredibly slow slog where you would go into a room, nuke it, then wait at the door for the 45 to 90 seconds for your abilities to recharge before doing it to the next room.

Repeat that for every single room in the game.

 

-snip-

[Elvang]

To rehash what others have said in more words, why are you complaining about the Nova and Ember teamup when the Vauban and Excalibur would have been just as effective for the purpose of turning the match into a 'snoozefest'?

[superbot34]

you should probably play higher level content if you found it boring because no matter what people say, spamming some abilities isn't "press 4 to win" in high level content. That's just a fact. Get beyond low level content or set up a team or something. i only play with randoms and i rarely have an issue with people spamming abilities because it's not game breaking. 

Edited October 11, 2014 by superbot34