Excalibur Soon To Come Nerf

[CY13ERPUNK]

You don't even know what the actual changes will be; DE only mentioned ideas. Just wait until it comes out.

 

^^^^^^^^^ THIS

 

-1 OP

 

srsly wish we had downvotes back sometimes =/

[SteelSoldier]

 Honestly warframes that are only useful due to having one powerful ability are extremely boring, I prefer there being multiple abilities I can use and that have some form of synergy and that allow me to play the warframe in multiple ways.

[tocorro]

Keep in mind that I have no issue with Excal having more utility. That, of course, would benefit him greatly. But what I don't approve is where that branches from, the fact that some don't want radial blind to be touched. This was much more prominent during the outrage in the past, but I still see it here and there.

 

In my honest opinion, sometimes, by the way DE is going with it, I feel that Excalibur is made to be a stepping stone to higher things. Weapons are the exact same way; you have a few weapons that are good for were you are but moreso help to get you to the next tier of weapon, such as Grataka to Soma, as a common example. It is arguable that a tier system doesn't exist in Warframe, but it does. Some weapons are just better than others.

 

This is much less acceptable to Warframes simply because they have way more to them than just how and how much you deal damage. When I said Excalibur was lackluster, I meant that I simply found other Warframes that do better. In terms of radial blind, Chaos has extra effect and Invisibility is more reliable. He was my starting frame, and I am glad that I had him to start me off in the game. But he simply just did not make the cut for me.

 

There are a lot of Excalibro fans out there, I get that. But that's the only thing making the transition harder.

 

Now You are suprising me, I can actually agree with what You wrote. My main concern is : if they are touching him, then they should add utility to his others skill, and make him more fun playing. Tiering warframe probably wouldn't work that well, they should be able to compete with eachother (so to speak, of course some frames are better than others, but creating too much of a gap is not a good idea). Tiering weapons - for that I am waiting for a long time. Hope it will be in game at some point.

 

^^^^^^^^^ THIS

 

-1 OP

 

srsly wish we had downvotes back sometimes =/

 

Why thank You, it would be a real honor to get downvoted.

And answering to the post You cited : No I don't know what that changes will be, no one knows, but that means we still have a way to express hopes and ideas. What Scott said in devstream, altough just "ideas" is nothing more than straight damage skills.

Remowing target cap from radial javelin is a good move, spawning them colser to enimies also - but it lacks utility - if it won't kill them on the first shot Excalibro probably will end up downed.

Super Jump - some like it, even more think it is so circumstantial that they use it rarely or don't use it at all. Idea of Scott - add a litle area stun while jumping, and make Excal invis while in air. It is somewhat of a fix, especially that You wouldn't be shoot while midair, alas it doesn't resolve the issue : skill is not versatile enough - Zephyr has something like a merge of slas dash and super jump and it is omni directional = so much better (don't like her dive bomb tho it is circumstantial as well). The idea with empowering skill Super Charge (I believe that was what @r0ckwolf called it) is so much better - it could incorporate super jump when active, and give little boost to speed, stamina etc.

Slash dash - I don't have my own opinion how to improve this utility wise, but I read that it should have combo counter and should knock down enemies on it's path. It's a good idea, tidal wave, charge etc works similiar to this.

Edited October 5, 2014 by tocorro

[Buzkyl]

We don't even know hos the LoS will affect RB now, and it's not going to be like the test bug that got out, yet exalibur is somehow ruined even though it appears he's getting a general buff. But naturally, the nerf threads pop up.

 

 

Also those "tight" corridors that somehow make SJ useless is not that cramped, not at all.

[tocorro]

Direct quote :

"What’s the deal with Excalibur Rebalance?

Although our changes to Excalibur were not planned for release we’ve gone over his powers a lot more, and have since made a few other adjustments. Radial Blind’s changes are coming back, but his rays of light will no longer mysteriously penetrate through all solid objects. Instead they’ll be blocked by...well...anything that light normally couldn’t pass through.

We’ve also made given Super Jump a small radial stun, plus mid-air invisibility. Radial Javelin will now spawn closer to its targets instead of permeating out from Excalibur, and has also had its target limit removed. As with any work in project these adjustments are definitely still subject to change, but we’ll make sure to give you the full breakdown as we get closer to seeing his new and improved attacks go live." link

 

So as it might still be a subject to change (I'm not talking about radial blind, I'm fine with the change if it will work correctly, i.e. not being blocked by example a Heavy Gunner and the rest of her pals right behind her back not affected). But it is what it is, a pure damage rework. So no that good. I would even say it's bad. Radial Javelin without a stun on hit, or pinning enemy to a wall if it will not kill him instantly would still be THE worst ult out there. Super jump - yeah it would have some utility, at least you wouldn't get shot in mid-air. Still almost none actually use it - circumstantial and not doable everywhere - without a charged Ogris I don't see a point using it. Radial blind even nerfed would still be a better way to escape from a heated exchange of fire than using Super Jump. r0ckwolf idea of Super charge with incorporated super jumping ability upon activation was still better.

I'm not seeing utility added to the skills ;(

Excal players that care (and actually using this warframe), I believe would welcome utility in his skills.

Please DE, work some more.

btw. even ninjas weren't based on pure strength, they were cunning, deceptive, fast, agile, used a lot of tricks and lastly : strong. Spies have a lot of utility. So give poster-boy Excalibro more utility.

Edited October 7, 2014 by tocorro

[Squiintts]

I was a little late to watching the devstream but I wanted to voice some of impressions on the "ideas":

 

I was a little disappointed with the changes, not because I don't like them, but because I think Excalibur and his abilities are in need of serious rework, not tweaks.  Honestly, most of these ideas sound like they could come via a small hotfix patch, there are no real game changers here.  I was hoping for something more like a complete rework a la Overheat vs Accelerant or the big changes they made to Blessing and Molecular Prime recently.

 

As others have stated, we won't really know until the changes actually come, but I believe that an ability like Super Jump should just go.  There are far too many tilesets where superjump is ineffective, and no matter how much utility you add to it, it is not befitting of a 3rd tier ability slot.

 

On a side note, maybe Radial Blind should be moved to the 4th ability and given a little bit of a buff.  Maybe forget about the LOS mechanic and add a few more seconds to the stagger of it.  I would be okay with doubling the cost of Radial Blind if it were given buffs that bring it up to par with other ultimates . . .

[tocorro]

In response to newest Community hot topics :

 

- Slash Dash - needs a bit of work too - forced bleed ? and incorportaion of melee weapon to it maybe

- Radial Blind - if it will work better than it was in the leaked experiment then we will see, maybe it will be viable. Altough You know that a stun grenade works even if You don't see the light ? maybe change the skill to be less effective with distance - divide it to 3 sectors : furthest - enemies only affected if in direct Line of Sight - very short lasting time; middle - also LoS detection - with longer lasting time; nearest vicinity - works without LoS - behind covers, walls, doors etc - longest lasting time. Why no LoS in direct vicinity ? For more survivability. Makes no sens for it to work behind cover as well ? And the new Radial Javelin spawning near enemy location - behind all coves - makes sens ?

- Super Jump - needs a total change to something else entirely - it's useless as it is, even with invis while ascending and small radial stun

I know that handful of Tenno like to be a grasshopper, but for crying out loud ... just incorporate super jumping into normal warframe move set - holding down space makes a frame jump higher and some of energy will be used for it

- Radial Javelin - this I like, will be more viable skill now if the stun will work properly, and IF javelins will actualy hit their targets - make them in such way they will allways hit everything that is in range of the skill

[vaugahn]

Altough You know that a stun grenade works even if You don't see the light ? 

 

That's caused by the sound of the stun grenade, though the flash is the main method of incapacitation. Radial blind doesn't have a sound aspect associated with it as far as I know. The casting sound isn't nearly loud enough to stun someone. Radial blind is still going to be very powerful, LoS the way they described it is barely going to affect it.

 

I'm not really very happy with super jump though. It doesn't feel thematically appropriate, and I'm worried it might be confusing for newbies. The invisi-jump is a cool concept, I just don't think it belongs on Excalibur. 

[tocorro]

That's caused by the sound of the stun grenade, though the flash is the main method of incapacitation. Radial blind doesn't have a sound aspect associated with it as far as I know. The casting sound isn't nearly loud enough to stun someone. Radial blind is still going to be very powerful, LoS the way they described it is barely going to affect it.

 

I'm not really very happy with super jump though. It doesn't feel thematically appropriate, and I'm worried it might be confusing for newbies. The invisi-jump is a cool concept, I just don't think it belongs on Excalibur. 

Well, You may be right that Radial Blind doesn't have enough of a bang to stun with sound. Yet I'm still in favour of RB working without LoS in lets say 10m diameter (not changable ?) and further than that with incorporation of LoS.

 

Super Jump - that needs to go, if it's to hard to think of a fitting 3rd skill then maybe throw this out and replace it with Radial Javelin, and a new ulti could be introduced ? (altough I think RJ as it seems may not be that bad with a stun on hit)

[vaugahn]

Well, You may be right that Radial Blind doesn't have enough of a bang to stun with sound. Yet I'm still in favour of RB working without LoS in lets say 10m diameter (not changable ?) and further than that with incorporation of LoS.

 

Super Jump - that needs to go, if it's to hard to think of a fitting 3rd skill then maybe throw this out and replace it with Radial Javelin, and a new ulti could be introduced ? (altough I think RJ as it seems may not be that bad with a stun on hit)

 

I really don't think LoS will be a huge issue. Most tiles are fairly open, and they said that enemies who are aware of Excalibur will also be affected.

 

I was thinking for super jump they could do something with the new air attacks. Maybe using it lets you perform super air attacks on that jump or something? 

[fatpig84]

All I say is if Radial Blind LOS changes get into effect, DE will be setting a precedent of nerfing all AOE CC abilities to LOS.

For some frames like Necros and Nyx, it can be a death sentence, for others, not so. 

 

So people, please don't talk like you will not be affected,

I dare take a hunch that RB's nerf will affect Prism and Reckoning as well.

 

We shall see.

[vaugahn]

All I say is if Radial Blind LOS changes get into effect, DE will be setting a precedent of nerfing all AOE CC abilities to LOS.

 

Would that really be such a bad thing? Abilities going through walls makes the game look unpolished. It's a pretty clear reminder of our beta status. And don't forget that there are enemies who use AoE, we could benefit from being able to hide from their attacks.

 

Also, neither Nekros or Nyx would be affected. Psychic abilities aren't generally known for being blocked by walls.

[fatpig84]

Would that really be such a bad thing? Abilities going through walls makes the game look unpolished. It's a pretty clear reminder of our beta status. And don't forget that there are enemies who use AoE, we could benefit from being able to hide from their attacks.

 

Also, neither Nekros or Nyx would be affected. Psychic abilities aren't generally known for being blocked by walls.

 

Because this is game balancing logic.

It will happen, someone will always choose a new meta frame and it will be affected eventually.

 

And I can use the same logic, "How can nyx or nekros use chaos/terrify on people, when she/he doesn't even know where those folks are ? "

 

 

Look Rhino's invincibility was the first to go. Then Globe then finally Blessing. Only Hysteria remains invulnerable, but DE is well aware that they will fix it eventually. Basically set a precedent and  eventually things will start to follow.

Edited October 12, 2014 by fatpig84

[tocorro]

Because this is game balancing logic.

It will happen, someone will always choose a new meta frame and it will be affected eventually.

 

And I can use the same logic, "How can nyx or nekros use chaos/terrify on people, when she/he doesn't even know where those folks are ? "

 

 

Look Rhino's invincibility was the first to go. Then Globe then finally Blessing. Only Hysteria remains invulnerable, but DE is well aware that they will fix it eventually. Basically set a precedent and  eventually things will start to follow.

 

You my friend are making a lot of sens.

Game needs some balancing though, but constant nerfing could kill it.

[Slamyourjam]

I really don't think LoS will be a huge issue. Most tiles are fairly open, and they said that enemies who are aware of Excalibur will also be affected.

 

I was thinking for super jump they could do something with the new air attacks. Maybe using it lets you perform super air attacks on that jump or something? 

 

Are you kidding me? Most places are full of objects blocking the enemies. Take Mercurys survival place for instance. 

[Slamyourjam]

Would that really be such a bad thing? Abilities going through walls makes the game look unpolished. It's a pretty clear reminder of our beta status. And don't forget that there are enemies who use AoE, we could benefit from being able to hide from their attacks.

 

Also, neither Nekros or Nyx would be affected. Psychic abilities aren't generally known for being blocked by walls.

 

Of course its a bad thing. It would severely cripple the usefulness of the Warframes and be far less viable in modes like solo.

[IfritKajiTora]

All Warframes need skill reworks

[Zirion_Bk]

All Warframes need skill reworks

Really? Care to explain why?

[tocorro]

Would that really be such a bad thing? Abilities going through walls makes the game look unpolished. It's a pretty clear reminder of our beta status. And don't forget that there are enemies who use AoE, we could benefit from being able to hide from their attacks.

 

Also, neither Nekros or Nyx would be affected. Psychic abilities aren't generally known for being blocked by walls.

 

Have You read that : "It also just goes to show the power of Archwing, able to create sound in the vacuum space. Orokin technology is truly incredible, and it’s definitely not just the Tenno saying ‘pew pew pew’ to themselves while blowing up Grineer."

Direct quote from main page regarding upcoming Archwing. Creating sound in vacuum space ... right, makes perfect sens ;]

And DE tells us that light going through walls is complete nonsens - btw. in physics there is a finite possibility of it happening : tunneling phenomenon (and not only light, matter as well). But in the vacuum of space, there are no molecules to propagate sound waves - I see a flaw in their argumentation . So DEvs exactly know that fun is more important than realism in video game, they just omit it when it is convenient.

Edited October 12, 2014 by tocorro

[Eyeless]

-snip-

 

[vaugahn]

Have You read that : "It also just goes to show the power of Archwing, able to create sound in the vacuum space. Orokin technology is truly incredible, and it’s definitely not just the Tenno saying ‘pew pew pew’ to themselves while blowing up Grineer."

Direct quote from main page regarding upcoming Archwing. Creating sound in vacuum space ... right, makes perfect sens ;]

And DE tells us that light going through walls is complete nonsens - btw. in physics there is a finite possibility of it happening : tunneling phenomenon (and not only light, matter as well). But in the vacuum of space, there are no molecules to propagate sound waves - I see a flaw in their argumentation . So DEvs exactly know that fun is more important than realism in video game, they just omit it when it is convenient.

 

Alright, looks like I have to reply to this.

 

This isn't a realism issue. I've said it myself dozens of times, nothing has to be realistic. It's not even worth bringing realism into this conversation.

 

However, better hit detection for abilities, which includes the way they interact with obstacles, is a quality of life change. First off, it eliminates several rather nasty camping techniques. Second off, it opens up some new mechanisms for powers to play with. Finally, it makes the game look more professional. I'll go over each point one-by-one.

 

Camping: I'm sure we all know by now about this one. There are some rather (in)famous location in the void where a player can stand and cast radial abilities, well out of the way of any possible danger. Several defense tiles suffer similar problems, though in a more minor form. This is not engaging gameplay. Now I know at least one person probably likes standing there and casting abilities, but that's not the kind of thing I think should be promoted. 

 

New mechanisms: Now, here's where I think things could get interesting. Different abilities could interact with the environment in different ways, either to promote better use of a certain ability or frame, or help designate a role for that ability. Off the top of my head, I can think of a couple different ways abilities could propagate. You could have "blast" abilities, which would be the same thing that radial blind is getting. Abilities like this would reward more aggressive gameplay, because if you're in the middle of a crowd of enemies you can affect more of them. You could have "wave" abilities, which flow through the level, kind of like the waves you see on the walls when you cast sonar. These abilities could get a bonus in tight spaces or something. You could even have abilities specifically designed to go through walls. This opens up more creative things to do with area-of-effect abilities, as opposed to our current perfect circle.

 

Makes the game look better: Effects passing through walls isn't normal, not for modern games at least. I can count on one hand the amount of games where cover can't block an explosion, and none of them are regarded as very good. Those little things are the kind of changes that have a big impact on how a game presents itself. 

 

Anyways, that's my opinion on this matter. 

[tocorro]

Alright, looks like I have to reply to this.

This isn't a realism issue. I've said it myself dozens of times, nothing has to be realistic. It's not even worth bringing realism into this conversation.

 

However, better hit detection for abilities, which includes the way they interact with obstacles, is a quality of life change. First off, it eliminates several rather nasty camping techniques. Second off, it opens up some new mechanisms for powers to play with. Finally, it makes the game look more professional. I'll go over each point one-by-one.

 

Camping: I'm sure we all know by now about this one. There are some rather (in)famous location in the void where a player can stand and cast radial abilities, well out of the way of any possible danger. Several defense tiles suffer similar problems, though in a more minor form. This is not engaging gameplay. Now I know at least one person probably likes standing there and casting abilities, but that's not the kind of thing I think should be promoted. 

 

New mechanisms: Now, here's where I think things could get interesting. Different abilities could interact with the environment in different ways, either to promote better use of a certain ability or frame, or help designate a role for that ability. Off the top of my head, I can think of a couple different ways abilities could propagate. You could have "blast" abilities, which would be the same thing that radial blind is getting. Abilities like this would reward more aggressive gameplay, because if you're in the middle of a crowd of enemies you can affect more of them. You could have "wave" abilities, which flow through the level, kind of like the waves you see on the walls when you cast sonar. These abilities could get a bonus in tight spaces or something. You could even have abilities specifically designed to go through walls. This opens up more creative things to do with area-of-effect abilities, as opposed to our current perfect circle.

 

Makes the game look better: Effects passing through walls isn't normal, not for modern games at least. I can count on one hand the amount of games where cover can't block an explosion, and none of them are regarded as very good. Those little things are the kind of changes that have a big impact on how a game presents itself. 

 

Anyways, that's my opinion on this matter. 

 

I'm not saying I do want the game to look half-finished. Just that reasoning we get is that something is nonsens, illogical etc. so it should be changed in one way or another. Ok if they say so and if it really looks that way then I understand. But they keep geting new stuff ingame that is even more illogical than previous things. So what is it in reality ? Fixing game on one end but introducing yet and again new things that are broken or illogical ?

What is the thought behind that logic ? Enjoy the new thing for couple of months, in near future we will "fix" it so it won't be as illogical ?

To be honest I don't get it. It should be either one way or another.

Edited October 13, 2014 by tocorro

[vaugahn]

I'm not saying I do want the game to look half-finished. Just that reasoning we get is that something is nonsens, illogical etc. so it should be changed in one way or another. Ok if they say so and if it really looks that way then I understand. But they keep geting new stuff ingame that is even more illogical than previous things. So what is it in reality ? Fixing game on one end but introducing yet and again new things that are broken or illogical ?

What is the thought behind that logic ? Enjoy the new thing for couple of months, in near future we will "fix" it so it won't be as illogical ?

To be honest I don't get it. It should be either one way or another.

 

Again, this is not about realism. 

[Thaumatos]

Again, this is not about realism. 

Yet DE seems to think it is.

 

They've tried to reason that light cannot pass through walls but Orokin Technology can create sound in the vacuum of space.

 

So which one is guiding this game, your opinion or their words?  It seems logical to think that they give more weight to their own arguments and opinions...doesn't it?

[Suthurn]

i dont have much of an opinion on the topic, except i do agree the logic as it is applied to the game is very annoying.

 

it seems for some things all realistic logic goes right out the window in favor of a cool idea or something they thought up.

 

then for other things its all about using real life logic to explain why it would work that way.

 

 

plainly stated, that is just a double standard. pick one or the other. its extremely annoying being faced with this type of mentality because it really boils down to them saying 'its what we wanted to do, we dont really care, but here is some b/s explanation to keep you happy.'