Sigil System: The Most Encouraging Idea From De I've Ever Seen

[notionphil]

I just watched Devstream 38 and I have to say...I was blindsided by how impressed I am. Nope, not with archwing gear or new infested models....

 

While, I would have loved it if DE had constructed a solid concept for Endgame by now, I understand Steve's reluctance to delve into Endgame until it's sorted out. The fact that it IS being sorted out, and understood by DE as 'something that happens at the 'end' of progression - is a good thing.

 

However, between now and then, Sigils are potentially the most significant system proposed by DE.

 

You: "Really, Notionphil? Cosmetic badges are going to change the game? They don't even buff stats! You've lost it buddy!"

 

Bare with me for a moment and I'll explain. Right now, Warframe's entire experience centers around building your power - gathering weapons, frames and increasing in skill.

 

What is all of that power for? Basically, after mid-game, Tenno wander the world looking for a suitable challenge, like the errant samuari of legend. But there's nothing for us. So we mindlessly slay the same pitiful foes only gather more trophies and throw them on the piles of gold we've collected over our journey.

 

So essentially all the power we build is for a challenge that never comes.

 

Until Sigils - a system of self-imposed tests which reward cosmetics for achievements

 

Quite simply, Sigils have potential to be the challenge Tenno have been training for. Sigils can provide a skill+gear based structure for achievement past the RNG & farming & grind that Warframe becomes for veterans. This is a huge deal.

 

Steve mentioned 'kill Lephantis with melee'; if this is at all indicative of the sorts of challenges we'll face, it's clear that we'll have to plan, build and strive to complete these sigils. Press 4 to win probably won't get you far here.

 

The social aspect of Sigils is also encouraging, as some of these restrictions encourage or may even require teamwork! For the first time, imagine 4 non-clanmate players deciding together to have a stealth run...or a no-powers-used T4 survival until 20m. Again, potentially huge.

 

Another benefit is that Sigils will probably be lightweight to deploy, so DE could theoretically create them with every major release. They do an awesome job of re-purposing and extending content as well, something I always try to achieve with my proposals (EG: giving you a fun reason to play the same content again, in a different way).

 

I'd also wager that one reason Steve was tight-lipped about calling Sigils 'endgame' is that they are probably toying with the idea of attaching gameplay elements to sigils. As long as such benefits would be slight and qualitative (EG: gameplay tweaks not important stat buffs), I'd be on board with that. Either way, I am incredibly hopeful about the purpose and challenge Sigils could bring to Warframe.

Edited October 6, 2014 by notionphil

[Calayne]

Plus, with that technology, we may finally be able to readjust our armour pieces! 

 

Boo-yeah! 

 

But yes, looking forward  to the challenge that may be inherent in the obtaining of those sigils. If it's any indicator, the lack of RNG and increased requirement of skill is a great direction to head to, and one which I hope they'll maintain course on. Whether it'll have any stats boost or not, I'm not particularly worried about; Simply knowing that skill is needed to achieve it is a huge motivator.

 

And for once, maybe finally, there'll be some semblance of skill recognition. At this point, everything in the game is equally easy to obtain: Just needs time, and RNG.

[letir]

It will be another Grindfest with RNG, monotony and stupid restrictions (like Dragon Keys).

 

And why we build all this power, if any "challenging" thing is strip/bind our OP builds?

[notionphil]

It will be another Grindfest with RNG, monotony and stupid restrictions (like Dragon Keys).

 

And why we build all this power, if any "challenging" thing is strip/bind our OP builds?

 

 

Requiring you to show mastery of a particular weapon/frame to earn a Sigil has absolutely nothing to do with arbitrary stat decreases.

 

And completing a challenge != grind, where did you get that from?

[Calayne]

It will be another Grindfest with RNG, monotony and stupid restrictions (like Dragon Keys).

 

And why we build all this power, if any "challenging" thing is strip/bind our OP builds?

 

1.) The challenges likely won't be RNG.

 

2.) The "Stupid restrictions" are limitations introduced to make it challenging and level-appropriate. 

 

3.) If you're so reliant on big toys and fancy crutches, you never had real power. 

 

4.) All these challenges are optional. If you don't have the guts, you don't get the glory. May the power stripping begin.

[Sasquatchias]

I am happy for the Sigils, and my biggest hope is that the various methods to acquire them are diverse enough to where it doesn't feel too "same-y".

 

I'm also excited for the Ability Mod changes and what they've said about it, which makes me hope that they'll be addressing the Mod system, or at least certain Mod Cards.

[slykidd]

,my only concern is how many times will we have to do these different type of challenges. i dont want to complete 10 stealth runs on one node. That would get tedious fast!

[HoakinBlackforge]

My reaction:

 

YES

YES

[letir]

1.) The challenges likely won't be RNG.

 

2.) The "Stupid restrictions" are limitations introduced to make it challenging and level-appropriate. 

 

3.) If you're so reliant on big toys and fancy crutches, you never had real power. 

 

4.) All these challenges are optional. If you don't have the guts, you don't get the glory. May the power stripping begin.

1) Last "challenging" thing was Nightmare mode with RNG rules. And they just drop it halfway after some time.

2) Why we need restrictions to make some difficult? Maybe we just have enough OP things and Power Creep?

3) I can see real power of Nyx+Loki+Nova. Boring.

4) I don't have guts for another round of TX anymore.

Edited October 6, 2014 by letir

[4MostlyHarmless2]

I agree, the idea is a rather exciting one that I hope DE pulls off nicely. 

I mean think about it, they can put so many different challenges that can cater to so many different playstyles. Imagine stuff like getting a Sigil for finishing an extermination mission in less than 5 minutes, which would fit rushers perfectly. Or for successfully clearing a mission without tripping an alarm, which could fit for "stealth" (or extreme rushing). Or soloing a particular boss, or finishing a mission with no abilities equipped, or finishing a mission with only your abilities, or...

 

Well, the possibilities are endless. And I love it. 

DE please, this is a good thing you're doing. Don't let it go to waste. 

Edited October 6, 2014 by 4MostlyHarmless2

[notionphil]

 

2) Why we need restrictions to make some difficult? Maybe we just have enough OP things and Power Creep?

 

Yes, you got it. We need restrictions bc we have enough OP things and Power Creep. Like most games with massive progression, DE has dug themselves into a hole with how powerful Tenno become, and the only way out is to either:

 

1) give enemies ways to resist/negate our powers

2) give us situations that test us with a specific build

 

This problem isn't specific to Warframe. Most long term progression games have similar restrictions in the form of "resistances".

 

At some point in time the only way to keep things interesting for the level 99 Paladin with the Sword of Holy Might is to create a bunch of enemies who are immune to holy damage...and make him figure other ways to take them out.

[Davoodoo]

I just hope de wont screw this up.

 

I think they mentioned melee lephantis which atm is impossible to do unless de decides to do something with hit detection for melee.

 

I would avoid such situations.

[zoboso]

while I am always optimistic about earn to obtain items, my only hope is that DE learns about balance by doing this to make the rest of warframe's endgame engaging.

[LtZerge]

I just hope de wont screw this up.

 

I think they mentioned melee lephantis which atm is impossible to do unless de decides to do something with hit detection for melee.

 

I would avoid such situations.

Well, thrown weapons still count as melee, I've smacked Lephy in the face(s) with my glaive many times. Otherwise yes, that's not happening

[notionphil]

I just hope de wont screw this up.

 

I think they mentioned melee lephantis which atm is impossible to do unless de decides to do something with hit detection for melee.

 

I would avoid such situations.

 

While WF is sometimes a bit lax in quality control, I strongly doubt they'll release challenges that cannot be completed (or at least quickly patch them). My hope is that the later challenges themselves become hard enough and varied enough that they actually promote strategy and team play.

 

For the Lephantis example, clearly they'd have to make Lephantis melee-killable.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

I think combat based Endgames are still a possibility.

1) Dojo based things:

-your dojo is a space fortress which can raid/destroy Balor Formorians (or other major things...eg. Significant asteroids) once the Lotus seems your clan worthy (ie your clan's players' combined power, not how many members it has)

2) Planet invasions

-Major invasions which seek to take over the entire planet. Lotus will permit only Tenno of good enough strength to support the defenders (you cannot choose between the two sides).

-If the planet is lost, alerts will be placed on certain areas. These serve to weaken the occupying force. Once enough damage is dealt, the survivors of the initial invasion will mount a counter attack. This counter attack is basically a standard invasion.

-In order to win an invasion, the invading force's Base of Operations must be eliminated. Tenno can break the front lines and push inward directly to the BO (the base), or they can weaken the invasion force around the planet. The BO's level and strength is equal to or greater than the other invaded areas. It will rise in level (ie more difficult) for every captured area. Recapturing these invaded areas will weaken the BO down to the base level.

-These invasions will likely be capped at level 35 and go down to 30 depending on the players.

The BO will be at least level 35 and go up 1-3 levels per invaded area (so a fully invaded Mercury could have a level 50+ BO).

Those are my two current ideas.

[zoboso]

 

I just hope de wont screw this up.

 

I think they mentioned melee lephantis which atm is impossible to do unless de decides to do something with hit detection for melee.

 

I would avoid such situations.

 

While WF is sometimes a bit lax in quality control, I strongly doubt they'll release challenges that cannot be completed (or at least quickly patch them). My hope is that the later challenges themselves become hard enough and varied enough that they actually promote strategy and team play.

 

For the Lephantis example, clearly they'd have to make Lephantis melee-killable.

If my memory is accurate, you have to jump on top of Lephantis to consistently damage him with melee.

[LukeAura]

I'm looking forward to sigils as well! 
Finally there might be a way to give Oberon that glowing red nose he's always been missing.... 

I can only wonder how creative they can get though. 
Although I do hope, "Beat Captain Vor while he's under cold proc with a slashing melee weapon" will be a challenge. 

 

Edited October 7, 2014 by LukeAura

[Twilight053]

 

 

I just hope de wont screw this up.

 

I think they mentioned melee lephantis which atm is impossible to do unless de decides to do something with hit detection for melee.

 

I would avoid such situations.

 

While WF is sometimes a bit lax in quality control, I strongly doubt they'll release challenges that cannot be completed (or at least quickly patch them). My hope is that the later challenges themselves become hard enough and varied enough that they actually promote strategy and team play.

 

For the Lephantis example, clearly they'd have to make Lephantis melee-killable.

If my memory is accurate, you have to jump on top of Lephantis to consistently damage him with melee.

 

Impossible, Panty is a ghost.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Twilight053

[Macdermott]

 

I think they mentioned melee lephantis which atm is impossible to do unless de decides to do something with hit detection for melee.

 

Glaive, anyone?

 

Muahahahahahahahaha....

[Adumu]

Uh, DE is actually implementing directional air melee attacks. Considering Rebecca could kill a flying Hellion with her Orthos, I'd say that Lephantis would be possible to hit with it as well. Difficult, but possible.

[notionphil]

Uh, DE is actually implementing directional air melee attacks. Considering Rebecca could kill a flying Hellion with her Orthos, I'd say that Lephantis would be possible to hit with it as well. Difficult, but possible.

"Difficult, but possible."

 

That is how all Sigils should be earned; via difficult but possible challenges.

[Davoodoo]

Uh, DE is actually implementing directional air melee attacks. Considering Rebecca could kill a flying Hellion with her Orthos, I'd say that Lephantis would be possible to hit with it as well. Difficult, but possible.

Weakpoints are immune to aoe and melee attacks so unless that is changed it would be a problem.

[Sasquatchias]

Even with the new directional air attacks I don't really think people will be trying Melee-Lephantis.

 

Its not that the attacks and stuff are bad (infact they looked quite effective) its just that he really isn't designed with melee only players in mind, and if my thinking is correct what little swipes or attacks you will get in will be fairly pitiful when you consider his scaling health.

 

If Melee-Only Lephantis is going to be made into a real thing (technically it is a real thing, but nearly no one does it) with everyone doing it then he needs more weakspots or another way of damaging him.

[notionphil]

Even with the new directional air attacks I don't really think people will be trying Melee-Lephantis.

 

Its not that the attacks and stuff are bad (infact they looked quite effective) its just that he really isn't designed with melee only players in mind, and if my thinking is correct what little swipes or attacks you will get in will be fairly pitiful when you consider his scaling health.

 

If Melee-Only Lephantis is going to be made into a real thing (technically it is a real thing, but nearly no one does it) with everyone doing it then he needs more weakspots or another way of damaging him.

 

That's kind of the point though. Hopefully Sigils won't be challenges that everyone can complete on their first attempt.

 

They should require you to think about things like his scaling health, exactly what weapon and frame combo to use, and then be on your best game...and probably still fail 9/10 times. They should be possible, but only when you get everything just right and have a near perfect run. Otherwise, they really aren't a test after all; they're just another mindless run that you spam your way through.

 

Anyway, this thread is not specifically about melee lephantis. What are some other Sigil runs that you might find interesting...and super challenging?

Edited October 7, 2014 by notionphil