Does The Orokin Tower Keys Really Contain Void Energy? And Stuff

[Pavelord]

We have often see Captain Vor using his Janus key to shoot a laser at you, and we have come to accept that Vor in its void form, with his void key  shoots void energy at you. But what if he is not, there´s a simple tought that put me on this idea: What was first, the keys that open portals to the void, or the acces to the void energy in the void to fill this keys?, i don´t know how we can have one without the other.

 

So I have come to speculate that Vor is actually not shooting void energy, then what is he shooting?; my guess so far is he is shooting another concentrated form of energy that is able to open a rift /portal to the void, think about it this way, if the tenno were mutated by this void energy, and Vor shoots void energy; wouldn´t he be mutating anything he shoots at.

 

The other evidence I can find for this idea is the corpus created "Corpus Void key" (sadly the only void key that can be crafted and limits our understanding on keys) that only uses credits, the corpus cipher and the corpus data mass for constructing, no forma nor orokin cell that could argueably provide void energy.

 

Edit. into spoiler for your viewing pleasure, Here I´m mostly commenting my train of toughts that cements this idea.

 

On that note, the orokin cell is an energy cell, is it a void energy cell?; here is why I think it could possibly be. I have as probably a lot of you realize the void is capable of transforming or mutating whatever it devours, I particularly lean on the idea that the void negates or warps the laws of nature or physics affecting the phases of matter and the cohesion between molecules and atoms; in simpler words the void holds the powers to alter the shape of matter and energy.

 

 

The most common impresion of the orokin, is that they failed to understand the void, but let´s not forget that the old war probably was long and cruel, and gave time to the orokin to develope new science and new reasonings that help them manipulate the void to a certain degree, this is proven by the constructions of buildings that can resist the void storm (orokin towers), use of the void for fast traveling (solar rails), the detection and use of void interference for stealth (Liseth´s void cloak) and the power to encase the powers of void mutants (tenno); I wouln´t think it is far-fetch that the orokin first managed to encapsulate void energy into a cell to power all of the above. 

 

I think above commentary is further reinforce just by observing that the orokin cell is the primary ingredient in all shape altering products; forma and potatoes and no less the warframes. It is also interesting to note that now that the corpus can measure void energy (tactical alert lore) we can infer that mod cards are also void energy infuse artifacts just like potatoes and Conclave rating has become a measure of void energy.

 

Now, with all the above I circle back to the beginning, you probably were left wondering why is Vor still alive, let´s note two things Vor was killed in the void next to a powerful energy source, is it possible that the void worked its powers, and Vor became a void mutant without the technocyte component that gives us the Tenno blend?, in one of his lines he says he is "Forever bound to the void", if he stops receiving void energy for a long while, does his upper half drops and die?, is he going to be in cahoots with the neural sentry?

 

Sorry, I brought you more questions than answers, but I would like to hear your toughts.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Pavelord

[ElHefe]

Heavy post, a lot to take in ...

 

The ontological question of Void Key first or entering the Void first is a bit like the chicken and egg riddle - endlessly circular

Still, two answers:

 

1. The key was constructed after the discovery of The Void

In this scenario The Void would have been discovered by accident 

This would require that technology designed for another purpose made the discovery

Now this happens all the time in the real world ... take radio astronomy and the detection of background infrared radiation as accidental proof of Einstein's theory of General Relativity or the accidental synthesis of Aspertame (NutraSweet)

 

Alternatively, we are wrong in thinking that The Void and the "normal" universe are so completely separated

 

Consider this hypothetical: 

The "normal" universe and The Void are constantly in contact with the other, but on a time scale so fast or a spatial dimension so small that effectively they are separate to our senses

Only with specialized equipment can these "microbumps" of intersecting dimensions be detected

 

2. The key was created to prove the existence of The Void

Theoretical science often outpaces experimental science

Example:  Einstein's theory of General Relativity predicted the phenomenon of a massive object - a star - could act as a gravitational "lens" by sufficiently distorting local space-time enough to be detectable 

Now proving the existence of something does not mean that there is a good theory to explain how it works

In mathematics there are several types of fundamental proofs:  existence proofs, uniqueness proofs and nonconstructive proofs

Thus, knowing that something exists does not provide sufficient information to predict how it behaves 

 

Consider this hypothetical: 

The Orokin look to extrasolar expansion of their empire as they understand the limitation of material resources

They begin an ambitious project of transluminal/interdimensional travel

In the course of research the existence of a "slipspace" is found to be theoretically possible BUT when they get "there", it doesn't look ANYTHING like what they expected and despite decades, even centuries of intense research The Void remains a mystery

 

The important fact to keep in mind here is that total understanding is not always necessary for manipulation ...

Example:  In the 12th century carbonized steel making was invented BUT it wasn't until the 21th that the principles of carbon nanowires as the basis for superplasticity and hardness was finally understood

 

The real question is what is The Void?

Your model is probably a widely held view ... but I have taken a completely different one

I see The Void as integral to the "normal" universe - the final fabric of reality - the two inseparable

This is by no means an original idea ... far, far from it

In fact, both modern physics and nearly every major philosophical and theological system assert that all of existence sprang out of nothingness

 

This is why The Void would be so incomprehensible - to the Orokin and to us - because we have no way of conceptualizing it without facsimile theoretical models or tautological descriptions

The Void is SO FUNDAMENTAL to existence that it is inexplicable in simpler terms ... it just IS

Edited October 8, 2014 by ElHefe

[sp33chle55]

I thought the keys were made to find specific places in the void. So if u want to go to the void you arent sure were you end up or if you ever get back.

And vors janus key is like a master key,it opens every door he finds. Its powerful if he only would know what to look for but hes kind of running around like a headless chicken trying to find corns.

So they could contain void energy. Or maybe they should because they kind of need to communicate with the void. No chicken egg dilemma here.

Void gets discovered.

Void is being experimented with.

Technology found to bind void energy for traveling safely in the void.

Void keys are created.

Le fin.

Edited October 8, 2014 by sp33chle55

[Pavelord]

...Edit.

I gotta admit my general perception of dimensions and cosmology comes from the DnD´s The Great Wheel.

 

From there I do get some of the points you mentioned, for example the Material plane (regular reality), is not only adjacent with the Ethereal Plane (ghosts plane) and the Plane of Shadows (a distorted reality dimension) they also occupy the same space, in contrast with the elemental planes, the infernal dimensions and the celestial domains that exist in a dimension completely apart from the material plane.

 

One of the early descriptions of the void, calls it a pocket dimension, this kinda gives the idea the void is several small spaces that exist within our reality, I relate this to the microbumps you mentioned, this "pockets" open where the dimensions intersect.

 

And I agree with the type of discovery you proposed in your second point, thats why I think the orokin used an alternate powerful energy, to open this theoretical dimension and not void energy since it was not available.

[PookieNumnums]

do we know enough about orokin technology at all to speculate as to what the janus key does or how it works?

 

keys definitely take us to locations, as they are mission specific. 

in the last event the orokin portal wasnt taking us just to the void. we were going to earth and phobos and ceres. its safe to assume that an orokin portal doesnt have to lead into the void to exist. 

 

seeing as how we have access to the void, its safe to say they knew at least enough about it to locate and enter it as they wish.

op brings up the point of manipulating physics and such. and hef brings up the idea of the void as both a meta dimension and a scientific constant. 

rather than thinking that the void exists somwhere within the hidden secrets of our universe, what if our universe (along with infinite others) exists within the metaphyical constraints of the void?

 

 

pick anyone of the little floating balls, thats our universe. the space between thats the void. 

[Pavelord]

I thought the keys were made to find specific places in the void. So if u want to go to the void you arent sure were you end up or if you ever get back.

And vors janus key is like a master key,it opens every door he finds. Its powerful if he only would know what to look for but hes kind of running around like a headless chicken trying to find corns.

So they could contain void energy. Or maybe they should because they kind of need to communicate with the void. No chicken egg dilemma here.

Void gets discovered.

Void is being experimented with.

Technology found to bind void energy for traveling safely in the void.

Void keys are created.

Le fin.

Orokin Towers key, probably do take you a specific place, the corpus void key, probably not so much as it was used to travel through the voidstorm and confuse the tenno.

 

Janus key is clearly a Orokin key, how can you experiment on the void, if you don´t have access to it to create the keys that open it?. Janus key included, we don´t know if it is special among void keys.

[sp33chle55]

That's what i was telling you. The keys dont grant access to the void. They just take you to specific places. They are not needed to get exposed to the void.

The zariman for example was exposed to the void and luckily was found again after the incident.

Edited October 8, 2014 by sp33chle55

[ElHefe]

I thought the keys were made to find specific places in the void. So if u want to go to the void you arent sure were you end up or if you ever get back.

And vors janus key is like a master key,it opens every door he finds. Its powerful if he only would know what to look for but hes kind of running around like a headless chicken trying to find corns.

So they could contain void energy. Or maybe they should because they kind of need to communicate with the void. No chicken egg dilemma here.

Void gets discovered.

Void is being experimented with.

Technology found to bind void energy for traveling safely in the void.

Void keys are created.

Le fin.

 

Your first point makes a lot of sense ... the keys act more of locators than actual keys

The only counterargument I can come up with now is that DE chose the name "key" and keys open locks or doors which suggests that they are more than just compasses

Perhaps to reach a specific location in The Void a specific door must be opened - that each path is unique

 

While on the topic of etymology, the use of "Janus" is curious ...

Janus is the Roman god with two faces

Maybe DE has some trick up their sleeve about some dual purpose of the Janus key - something bigger than being a master key

 

Finally, simply because a reasonable explanation can be developed for the "Key - Void" question doesn't make it the answer

With so little information about both the keys and The Void, I think the "chicken - egg" question hasn't been definitively resolved

[ElHefe]

(edited) I gotta admit my general perception of dimensions and cosmology comes from the DnD´s The Great Wheel.

 

And I agree with the type of discovery you proposed in your second point, thats why I think the orokin used an alternate powerful energy, to open this theoretical dimension and not void energy since it was not available.

 

DnD eh?  An interesting starting point - just as valid as any I can come up with (DE may even be using this as their inspiration or as some type of homage/Easter Egg)

 

Your second point makes very good sense ...

I have wondered how it was possible for Void energy to spew about so freely in the "normal" universe when Vor is using the Janus Key as a weapon

If The Void is as many believe - something so radically different that even natural laws don't apply - then why doesn't our universe get ripped to shreds when a torrent of Void energy pours in?

I just hope that DE has a consistent explanation for all this in the end ...

 

To be a devil's advocate, IF the Void is actually part of our universe, then Void energy is also part of it ... just not a commonly observed part of it

Something like - but not identical to - dark energy and dark matter

On the level of normal human experience, this stuff doesn't exist

It is only when one looks at the universe with a mind boggling huge view of spatial and temporal scale that this odd things of dark energy and matter manifest themselves

[ElHefe]

 -snip -

 

That is just a sublime image ... 1+

Sums up my views on The Void better than any words

[sp33chle55]

Thats right. It doesnt make it the answer.

I dont know where i have read about the location binding key relationship, but i kind of remember that at some point i was told in the game, codex or devstream or trailer that the keys actually act like that.

But dont quote me on that. :-D

And what exactly the janus key is i cant even speculate on that. Dont know what it is and how vor is able to use it.

[Arlayn]

Your first point makes a lot of sense ... the keys act more of locators than actual keys

The only counterargument I can come up with now is that DE chose the name "key" and keys open locks or doors which suggests that they are more than just compasses

Perhaps to reach a specific location in The Void a specific door must be opened - that each path is unique

Well yeah. There are 4 towers we visit with Void keys. These towers are possibly absurdly huge. As these keys take us to different sectors of the Tower each time. As if each section is locked from others, or the locked doors switch off every now, and then like a maze, or puzzle. Its possible the towers are like the temple mazes from Aliens vs. Predator. Constantly changing, and of course the keys pop us in a specific location in said tower, but always different from other keys hence why we can find anything at all.

[sp33chle55]

Haha thats funny. I always thought its always a different tower we visit. But that idea of this maze like buildings sounds too good. I dig it.

[SilentMobius]

Here's my thought:

 

How do you locate and navigate to a specific "place" in the Void if traditional physics is unreliable?

 

Well we know that there is such a thing as a "void-imprint" a representation of a complex concept imprinted on void energy and stored in a physical repository (Mirage quest).

 

So, what if the only way to navigate to a location in the Void is by using an key charged with the imprint of the location? With all real-space locations having a matching void location but the converse not being true (hence the Ember codex indicating that mis-jumps generally simply disappear)

 

This means that if you have a device that can break into the Void from a physical location you can sample the "void imprint" and thus use that imprint to navigate to that location when in the Void.

 

* Void portal equipment creates a tunnel in the Void from one point to a destination defined by the imprint in a void key.

* The Lisete is Void-capable (and shielded) and can navigate to a specific point within the void with a suitable key

* Solar Rails are like larger versions of the portals and probably have a key at their core referring to the destination

 

Now, if the keys can hold a void-imprint of a location, what if they can hold void-imprints of _other_ things, like people, technology, designs (Like the Mirage Void imprints) This may explain the Janus Key, it's a special Orokin Void key (Hence the twin tails) that holds the Void imprint of "Something mysterious"

 

The "Corpus Void keys" from the event could well be the real-space coordinates of those few Void towers that reside right on the other side of real-space locations and are thus easy/less dangerous to visit.

 

The interesting thing is that this means that you can have "Void Pockets" that is portals to a shielded craft in the void that require no key, because the craft is "moored" to the Void "location" that corresponds to the realspace location. But you can also have "Void Towers" that simply cannot be navigated to without a void-key charged with the imprint of that Void "location"

 

It also explains _how_ you make these things:

 

* Make a key for your origin location.

* Enter the Void in a shielded exploration vessel

* Travel some distance "away"

* Charge some keys with this location

* Send probes "out" of the Void from this new location with a key, programmed to return, and self-destruct if they can't.

* If they don't, the location is unreachable from realspace

* Ta-da: safe little bolt-hole.

 

Oh, what if _that's_ how they found the Sentients system? Probe comes back but has no idea at all where the other side was physically? Orokin Send more probes, eventually construct a rail that sends ships there near Pluto.

 

That might also explain _how_ you "Win" the Sentient's War: Once you have destroyed every Origin-system void-imprint in the Sentient's system and leave, they can theoretically never get back. At that point you scuttle the Pluto rail and the War is over.

 

It also explains how the Mirage Void imprints of the War made it back to the Origin system, the Tenno would be collecting keys and taking them home.

 

Oh... I rather like that.

Edited October 8, 2014 by SilentMobius

[Pavelord]

This "void-imprint" remembers me the psycometry used by the protagonist of "The Dead Zone", does the Janus key hold the memories of some Janus guy? not sure if the imprint is enough, we do know the corpus key and derelict keys require Navigation coordinates.

 

I believe the Corpus Void Key didn´t took us to any particular place, since the objective on those was to lead the tennos on wild chase and risk destruction in the void storm.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Pavelord

[Pavelord]

do we know enough about orokin technology at all to speculate as to what the janus key does or how it works?

 

keys definitely take us to locations, as they are mission specific. 

in the last event the orokin portal wasnt taking us just to the void. we were going to earth and phobos and ceres. its safe to assume that an orokin portal doesnt have to lead into the void to exist. 

I´m under the impression the orokin portal use the void sort of like a wormhole, they are used to shorten travel distances, so even if your destination is not the void they might be using it.

 

Gate Crash has me confuse, I´m not sure if it was well tought, mission description says we need to travel to the void to reach the derelict, but the mission starts in a derelict, makes you travel through a void portal and you end up in a planetary tileset.

[traficonserv]

i thought the keys are used only to unlock the towers.

since we can get to the void simply by flying there.(cutscenes before entering void missions)

[Pavelord]

i thought the keys are used only to unlock the towers.

since we can get to the void simply by flying there.(cutscenes before entering void missions)

yes, they do give access to a tower, probably a specific one as we know other keys require navigation coordinates to construct; the void has been described as a pocket dimension, something like a space within another space, so the key opens the void in the coordinates of that specific orokin tower.

[Pavelord]

 

Well we know that there is such a thing as a "void-imprint" a representation of a complex concept imprinted on void energy and stored in a physical repository (Mirage quest).

 

So, what if the only way to navigate to a location in the Void is by using an key charged with the imprint of the location? With all real-space locations having a matching void location but the converse not being true (hence the Ember codex indicating that mis-jumps generally simply disappear)

 

This means that if you have a device that can break into the Void from a physical location you can sample the "void imprint" and thus use that imprint to navigate to that location when in the Void.

 

 

The "Corpus Void keys" from the event could well be the real-space coordinates of those few Void towers that reside right on the other side of real-space locations and are thus easy/less dangerous to visit.

 

 

Hi, I think I need you to elaborate a bit on this lines, I´m sensing some contradictory concepts.

 

In the first paragraph

Void imprint is a concept recorded with void energy into a physical medium. OK, Lotus specifically says the area, but probably works the same.

 

Second paragraph

void imprint is a must if you want to reach a specific place in the void, coordinates in the origin system correlate to coordinates in the void but not visceversa. OK

 

Third paragraph

Here you theorized a device that can put the physical medium into the void (do you agree that we don´t need void energy to enter the void?to no specific location), to imprint the medium with void energy that will give us acces to the void into a specific location. And we know that didn´t happen in Mirage´s Hidden messages, because the transcriptions are written in the parts you construct and are not given by the Lotus´ "reading" of the imprint. I´m not discarding this idea yet, but would need a bit more information.

 

Wasn´t the purpose of the corpus void keys to dive right into the void storm to loose the tenno of their tail and risk them to the void storm?, which is more dangerous than being inside a tower.

 

This whole Void imprint sounds like psychometry. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychometry_(paranormal)

[TankHunter678]

If the Void functions like the Warp in Warhammer 40k then the Orokin Keys could be treated to function in the same way that the Cadian Gate does that leads into the Eye of Terror (a massive warpstorm), in that they keys are designed to "tame" the void to create a stable route. Opening the path that leads to the towers. Each key when recovered could also have the information on the location the key was used to reach. If each key was purpose made for their locations.

[Pavelord]

Well yeah. There are 4 towers we visit with Void keys. These towers are possibly absurdly huge. As these keys take us to different sectors of the Tower each time. As if each section is locked from others, or the locked doors switch off every now, and then like a maze, or puzzle. Its possible the towers are like the temple mazes from Aliens vs. Predator. Constantly changing, and of course the keys pop us in a specific location in said tower, but always different from other keys hence why we can find anything at all.

I don´t know why they call them towers, but structurally they can hardly be called so as the map would show they are more wide than tall, aren´t they supposed to be the orokin ships that did go into the void, in contrast to the derelicts that couln´t do it, they do share a tileset, with its before/after treatment, and as massive as they are per the picture; they are  just ships and the 1-4 represent the access level, meaning something like 1 for personnal and and cargo transportation; and 4 for for heavily restricted/secret labs, hence the increased security.  It could also be infer the void is filled with all the orokin fleet with the exception of the derelicts, and keys take us to specific ships because they could also function as the ignition key for that particular ship; instead of a massive structure.

 

[TankHunter678]

The Dojos we use are based off of the Orokin Tower design, and when you go do the flyin for an Orokin Tower, it uses a dojo model. Also they are mentioned in Mercury's planet description.

[Pavelord]

Just went to the void, i guess they at least have 2 types of ships.

 

[MihawkDulacr1]

I don´t know why they call them towers, but structurally they can hardly be called so as the map would show they are more wide than tall, aren´t they supposed to be the orokin ships that did go into the void, in contrast to the derelicts that couln´t do it, they do share a tileset, with its before/after treatment, and as massive as they are per the picture; they are  just ships and the 1-4 represent the access level, meaning something like 1 for personnal and and cargo transportation; and 4 for for heavily restricted/secret labs, hence the increased security.  It could also be infer the void is filled with all the orokin fleet with the exception of the derelicts, and keys take us to specific ships because they could also function as the ignition key for that particular ship; instead of a massive structure.

 

I also deny that they are really ,,towers'' else it would be nonsensical. I think they are more like the pulse archs in FF 13, they have the machines of war stored up in them and retain, even if not used, still a lot of power.

[SilentMobius]

Just went to the void, i guess they at least have 2 types of ships.

 

 

This is true however, ever since the introduction of the Lisete many of these entry animations have been.... scrambled. Orokin Derelict mission use the Corpus Infested ship model. Personally I'm not convinced that these weren't hacked together at the last minute without any thought regarding lore or accuracy. Certainly when "The Void" was introduced these mission were exclusively referred to as "Orokin Towers"