Change How Ash's Bladestorm Affects Other Tenno.

[BrazilianJoe]

One irksome thing about Bladestorm in PvP is that it is not counterable. 

 

Against other Tenno, Bladestorm should spawn an Ash in FRONT of the Tenno, and he should unleash a barrage of attacks against the player. The player would have the chance to block it this way. 

[(PSN)Strifedecer]

Bladestorm has already been nerfed for PvP.

Quit it. 

Please.

[_Raiklar_]

It kills me, when people complain about Ash and Blade Storm because after all the changes they've made to it and people want more changes so that he become a frame that might as well not have any abilities at all and just use his weapons. Cause they ruined Blade Storm with the clones and the change from true damage to slash damage. Then they had to add the clones that don't work half the time, and by that it reduces the amount of damage it did due to the shortened duration of it. all in the name of team play and pvp. I mean he can't even be viable in solo play anymore due to all the changes. And i've been playing Ash as my main frame for almost a year. And to top it off now some people are complaining about his other abilities wanting them to be nerfed. Seriously. It kills me.

[SwiftPotato12]

I agree with both sides of this topic. While sadly Ash is no-longer as viable in PvE he seems to still excel in PvP. I've been in dark sector conflicts many times where we will go against ONE Ash and all he has to do is use a power efficiency build to use blade storm as often as it would permit. In this respect maybe not a nerf game wide on ash but some sort of restriction that can be used to counter in PvP? I've tried Rhino with Iron Skin and 1200 Shields, I've tried Quick Thinking + Rage(Both before the nerf and after), I've even tried Auto-Parry builds.

 

Also, +1 Ookami for a valid argument that I agree with fully.

[LordMelvin]

For the record I've had zero problem playing Ash after his many reworks and I have a cookie-cutter build that I apply to all of my frames. 

 

While I haven't tried him for PVP yet, in PVE he's still quite good. The only thing I'd like to see changed is a short invisibility period after Teleport so you don't get shot while stabbing and for Smoke Bomb to have a bit more team utility, perhaps being able to throw it like a Vauban ability and blocking line-of-sight for everyone in it.

[BrazilianJoe]

Not the only skill with severe problems on PvP. 

 

It's uncounterable, and does not require line-of-sight. 

 

My suggestion is to make it counterable with blocking. Even if the player blocks the damage, blocking does not work 360 degrees and the target player still stops what he is doing do have t odeal with the attack, so it's still useful. 

[REDHOOOD]

The only change that is reasonable for blade storm is nerfing the range. As I have said before, if the user wants to increase range, he loses power strength - and if ash needs to be within 30 m to use blade storm and you still can't kill him, perhaps you should reflect on how you play. 

 

Right now, It takes about 2-3 casts of blade storm to kill a rhino, saryn, and valk at the same level- I tested it last night in a 2 v 4. Keep In mind that in the same position, I would turn the tide of battle pre-nerf. However this time, they just brushed off the damage and steam rolled me.

 

If you still struggle with Ash, perhaps you should think of ways to improve your current play style - maybe you move in a predictable manner or sit still too long.

 

 

Not the only skill with severe problems on PvP. 

 

It's uncounterable, and does not require line-of-sight. 

 

My suggestion is to make it counterable with blocking. Even if the player blocks the damage, blocking does not work 360 degrees and the target player still stops what he is doing do have t odeal with the attack, so it's still useful. 

 

To clear up miss-communicated information:

 

- Blade storm requires line of sight. 

- Ash is also not invulnerable during blade storm, you can actually proc status on him if you hit him instead of his holograms. - This means you can proc radiation or magnetic on him if you know how to aim...

 

Please note: I main Oberon, Loki, and then Ash. 

 

Red 

 

Edit: Grammer

Edited October 8, 2014 by REDHOOOD

[xkillo32]

I agree with both sides of this topic. While sadly Ash is no-longer as viable in PvE he seems to still excel in PvP. I've been in dark sector conflicts many times where we will go against ONE Ash and all he has to do is use a power efficiency build to use blade storm as often as it would permit. In this respect maybe not a nerf game wide on ash but some sort of restriction that can be used to counter in PvP? I've tried Rhino with Iron Skin and 1200 Shields, I've tried Quick Thinking + Rage(Both before the nerf and after), I've even tried Auto-Parry builds.

 

Also, +1 Ookami for a valid argument that I agree with fully.

blade storm bypasses iron skin so that won't do u much good

[RawGritz]

You should be able to block it if timed right. End of story.

 

A red hue comes over everyone within the Bladestorm range. This could be your indication to press and hold block. Ash bounces of your block and goes on to the next enemy. It would take skill and a lot of paying attention. But I welcome the challenge.

Edited October 8, 2014 by RawGritz

[REDHOOOD]

You should be able to block it if timed right. End of story.

 

A red hue comes over everyone within the Bladestorm range. This could be your indication to press and hold block. Ash bounces of your block and goes on to the next enemy. It would take skill and a lot of paying attention. But I welcome the challenge.

 

Ok, then we open the door for the following changes:

 

- Miasmi should be block-able or have damaged reduced - in blocking position

- Absorb should be block-able 

- Stomp can be avoided if I jump, and charge should be blockable 

- Reckoning should avoidable, if I roll 

- Nose dive should cause damage to zephar because she impacts the ground with her face - and we should be able to block the shockwave

- tentacles should be blockable, and we should be able to swim out of the puddle (If we press "E" fast enough) 

- Prism should be blockable or negated if we wear white armour and energy - white reflects certain wave-lengths. 

- Radial blind and javelin can be blocked

- etc.

 

This approach raises more problems than solutions: Where do we draw the line?; Which ultimate should be sacrificed for balance?; Which classes come out ahead?; Which 1,2,3 abilities should be blockable next?; when all these abilities are nerfed, and everyone realizes how hard it is to shoot a tenno - what do we do when the demand to buff abilities return?

 

Something to think about. 

 

Red 

[RawGritz]

Ok, then we open the door for the following changes:

 

- Miasmi should be block-able or have damaged reduced - in blocking position

- Absorb should be block-able 

- Stomp can be avoided if I jump, and charge should be blockable 

- Reckoning should avoidable, if I roll 

- Nose dive should cause damage to zephar because she impacts the ground with her face - and we should be able to block the shockwave

- tentacles should be blockable, and we should be able to swim out of the puddle (If we press "E" fast enough) 

- Prism should be blockable or negated if we wear white armour and energy - white reflects certain wave-lengths. 

- Radial blind and javelin can be blocked

- etc.

 

This approach raises more problems than solutions: Where do we draw the line?; Which ultimate should be sacrificed for balance?; Which classes come out ahead?; Which 1,2,3 abilities should be blockable next?; when all these abilities are nerfed, and everyone realizes how hard it is to shoot a tenno - what do we do when the demand to buff abilities return?

 

Something to think about. 

 

Red 

No where near the same thing. None of those are a single and direct melee attack. But I will give you Radial Javelin. That should be "blockable" as well.

[REDHOOOD]

No where near the same thing. None of those are a single and direct melee attack. But I will give you Radial Javelin. That should be "blockable" as well.

 

The scenarios I listed were embellished examples. Yes it is similar. Many ultimates can one-hit you, especially if they have a level advantage. 

[BrazilianJoe]

Ok, then we open the door for the following changes:

 

- Miasmi should be block-able or have damaged reduced - in blocking position

- Absorb should be block-able 

- Stomp can be avoided if I jump, and charge should be blockable 

- Reckoning should avoidable, if I roll 

- Nose dive should cause damage to zephar because she impacts the ground with her face - and we should be able to block the shockwave

- tentacles should be blockable, and we should be able to swim out of the puddle (If we press "E" fast enough) 

- Prism should be blockable or negated if we wear white armour and energy - white reflects certain wave-lengths. 

- Radial blind and javelin can be blocked

- etc.

 

This approach raises more problems than solutions: Where do we draw the line?; Which ultimate should be sacrificed for balance?; Which classes come out ahead?; Which 1,2,3 abilities should be blockable next?; when all these abilities are nerfed, and everyone realizes how hard it is to shoot a tenno - what do we do when the demand to buff abilities return?

 

Something to think about. 

 

Red 

 

While on some skills you seem to be poking fun, some of them are acceptable or good inspiration for alternative mechanics. But all ultimates should have some way of being counterable or having non-landsliding effects. 

 

The act of balancing is always about drawing and redrawing the line. Refusal of change is refusal of improvement. The amount of people on different camps show that something needs to change, because the amount of insatisfaction is high enough to prompt people to bring forth feedback and complain about what does not work for them. 

 

I feel that most powers should have ways of being countered in PvP. It does not mean that the counter would completely negate the effect in all cases, but it would be mitigated. It's about changing 'press 1/2/3/4 to win' to a more skill-based combat. When you use the skill matters. How you use your frame matters. 

 

A block+channel could be integrated as a mechanic to direct DoT from warframes to energy instead. That would work for miasma and other skills, and requires player quick response. It would also force the player to stop attacking to counter the poison. 

 

 

BUT, you are giving examples of skill which are not all level 4, where the balance discussions in PvP are mostly about level 4 skills, which are press-to-win. Trying to put too much into the plate just makes the problem more intractable. I propose we stick to discussion about level 4 skill balance. Balance will eventually trickle down to other skill levels. 

[Tsoe]

Buff Block both in PVP and PVE   and allow perfect block (right timing = no sp consuption and 100% dmg reduc)

 

end of story

Edited October 13, 2014 by Tsoe

[Vorsches]

When did blade storm get nerfed in pvp? I remember a couple months ago BS (no, not b**ls**t, bladestorm silly, but the double entendre is not lost on me) was the modus operandi of ANY dark sector you dared enter. Usually if you did join a dark sector conflict it was to fall in for whatever poor sod didn't get 25 energy for their max efficiency BS build first, which also meant that you were nicely screwed as well...

Edited October 13, 2014 by Vorsches

[REDHOOOD]

While on some skills you seem to be poking fun, some of them are acceptable or good inspiration for alternative mechanics. But all ultimates should have some way of being counterable or having non-landsliding effects. 

 

The act of balancing is always about drawing and redrawing the line. Refusal of change is refusal of improvement. The amount of people on different camps show that something needs to change, because the amount of insatisfaction is high enough to prompt people to bring forth feedback and complain about what does not work for them. 

 

I feel that most powers should have ways of being countered in PvP. It does not mean that the counter would completely negate the effect in all cases, but it would be mitigated. It's about changing 'press 1/2/3/4 to win' to a more skill-based combat. When you use the skill matters. How you use your frame matters. 

 

A block+channel could be integrated as a mechanic to direct DoT from warframes to energy instead. That would work for miasma and other skills, and requires player quick response. It would also force the player to stop attacking to counter the poison. 

 

 

BUT, you are giving examples of skill which are not all level 4, where the balance discussions in PvP are mostly about level 4 skills, which are press-to-win. Trying to put too much into the plate just makes the problem more intractable. I propose we stick to discussion about level 4 skill balance. Balance will eventually trickle down to other skill levels. 

 

Many abilities 1-3 can also be considered "press-to-win": turbulence, Shuriken, Bastille, Venom, Pull, Bullet attractor, Invisibility, hysteria [edit] - just to name a few. If such changes went through, where do we draw the line? Moreover, if abilities for glassy frames were nerfed, or negated this easily, we will see only see tanky classes (Valk, Rhino - to name a few) in PvP.

 

So I disagree, we can not limit this discussion to just level 4 abilities. Another question that needs to be ask is: what about glassy frames that only have a good ultimate and nothing else? e.g. Nyx is hardly scary without absorb; Excalibro is nothing without radial javalin; necros has nothing going for itself in pvp besides pure support - desecrate for team.

 

P.S. the list I made was to poking fun at the idea by educating on some rather ridiculous changes. 

 

Red

Edited October 13, 2014 by REDHOOOD

[(PSN)MobiusN749]

Many abilities 1-3 can also be considered "press-to-win": turbulence, Shuriken, Bastille, Venom, Pull, Bullet attractor, Invisibility, hysteria [edit] - just to name a few. If such changes went through, where do we draw the line? Moreover, if abilities for glassy frames were nerfed, or negated this easily, we will see only see tanky classes (Valk, Rhino - to name a few) in PvP.

 

So I disagree, we can not limit this discussion to just level 4 abilities. Another question that needs to be ask is: what about glassy frames that only have a good ultimate and nothing else? e.g. Nyx is hardly scary without absorb; Excalibro is nothing without radial javalin; necros has nothing going for itself in pvp besides pure support - desecrate for team.

Thing is we're supposed to be legendary ninjas we should be able to block, dodge pass through this stuff if not avoiding all damage then at least being able to take reduced damage and be forced to roll on knock downs like pull. Make the glass harder and the tank softer then weaken the over powered weapons and abilities and buff the the useless ones make it to where nothing feels useless or a bit to overpowered, make nekros' abilities actualy do something in pvp. Put diminishing returns for the effectiveness of mods effecting a certain aspect of the build to make the max efficiency or damage builds less effective and this stuff should ONLY be applied to PVP no more screwing with pve because people complain about pvp.

on the subject of blade storm and coming from someone who doesn't use ash much I preferred it pre-patch because watching what amounts to a cut scene while getting hit is irritating as hell and never stops making me shoot them first and it was actually useful in pve before it was nerfed.

 

These are just my thoughts anyway

[TennoSimons]

One irksome thing about Bladestorm in PvP is that it is not counterable. 

 

Against other Tenno, Bladestorm should spawn an Ash in FRONT of the Tenno, and he should unleash a barrage of attacks against the player. The player would have the chance to block it this way. 

 

I actually agree with OP on this one. I for one wish they would alter the logic of his ultimate completely when in PVP only (much like they did for Loki and for Nyx). Instead, I think for Bladestorm they should give Ash a timed Volt like Super-Speed (could have non-offensive utility as well). During this period, he would have his blades out as normal, and if he can successfully connect with a single melee attack, it would then have one of the usual bladestorm animations and would do the damage (could be the pre-nerf damage for all I care). This would be far more balanced and would give the other players at least a fighting chance to evade or defend.  Power durartion and whether or not Ash would be invincible during Bladestorm could be determined by overall balance considerations. 

[Giovannii]

How about we have Ash's bladestorm only attack the AI in PvP/Dark Sector Conflict instead of other players.

Done.

[MoonlightAngel]

Ash is still OP comparing to another Warframe. wipe out the whole party with just spam BS.  Maybe rail conflict should turn into Ash conflict where only ashs do exist. I seen redhood has tried his best to protect ash with all costs.

Edited October 20, 2014 by MoonlightAngel

[.Talia.]

BS is BS

[REDHOOOD]

Ash is still OP comparing to another Warframe. wipe out the whole party with just spam BS.  Maybe rail conflict should turn into Ash conflict where only ashs do exist. I seen redhood has tried his best to protect ash with all costs.

 

To add to this, I also protect several other warframes: Valk, Obby, Loki, Saryn, Nyx, and Vaub. Moreover, I have illuminated to counters to all of the above in past posts. Perhaps you should look them up before drawing accusations. 

 

Red

 

Edit: One last thing to add: say abilities were all nerfed and you had to depend on fire arms and melee only. How would you fight a 1 v 4 battle? They have 4x your ammo and melee gank? This isn't even taking into account weapons link, acrid, boltor, dakra, orthos, etc. 

Edited October 20, 2014 by REDHOOOD

[Alethkar]

I played DS as Ash.

Other team: 2 Rhinos, Volt, Saryn.

I killed them all with Galatine w/ Cleaving Whirlwind.

I entered the match at the end and no access to BS or any abilities

but they still died...

Picking up what I'm putting down?

PS- If you make one Ult. block-able then you need to make all AOE blockable. I personally don't like that idea. 2c

[MoonlightAngel]

To add to this, I also protect several other warframes: Valk, Obby, Loki, Saryn, Nyx, and Vaub. Moreover, I have illuminated to counters to all of the above in past posts. Perhaps you should look them up before drawing accusations. 

 

Red

 

Edit: One last thing to add: say abilities were all nerfed and you had to depend on fire arms and melee only. How would you fight a 1 v 4 battle? They have 4x your ammo and melee gank? This isn't even taking into account weapons link, acrid, boltor, dakra, orthos, etc. 

I didn't said that we shouldn't have ability. I said BS is way too OP because you can wipe out the whole party while they can't even MOVE. stun-lock from BS need to be rework. Maybe made stun-lock available at 1-3-5-7 when it hit on the same target.

[REDHOOOD]

I didn't said that we shouldn't have ability. I said BS is way too OP because you can wipe out the whole party while they can't even MOVE. stun-lock from BS need to be rework. Maybe made stun-lock available at 1-3-5-7 when it hit on the same target.

 

My edit was not directed at you, specifically. BS is effective - noone can deny that. However, there are many abilities that can wipe out entire teams - for that reason alone, we cannot solely limit a nerf to BS; but we need to approach this more intelligently. The damage has been nerfed to the point where Ash is barely viable in PvE. The goal of all my posts in this thread is to look at the big picture, which I feel many people are neglecting because these band-aid fix will solve nothing. 

 

Moreover, noone is has commented on how reflex gaurd and quick thinking will basically be "God mode" in PvP, if all ultimates became blockable. As I have stated in the past, you can nerf Ash - seriously, go do it because 400 of my total deaths are attributed to BS alone, and I still have 3 other PvP-viable frames - But the complaints will not end with Ash. Next there will be a cry to nerf mirage, obby, loki, etc.   

 

Red