Sniper Rifles Are Awful?

[Archistopheles]

No one's here for competition, we're brainstorming ways to improve our favorite kinds of weapons.

I know. I just enjoy stirring the pot in order to get the brain-juices flowing. I also inadvertently listed the best parts of a sniper rifle.

1. Accuracy

2. Power

3. Kill speed

It's important to drop targets, but the reason spray rifles are winning is because they have a higher KPM (kills per minute) score than snipers. So, in my limited opinion, speeding up reload times and fire rate as well as increasing clipazine size would go a long way.

[Gr33hn]

increase the crit rate to match the bows and that's about it, most snipers are hit-scan while bows have travel time 

 

I have to agree with this. If DE does this it would only become a matter of preference wether people use the snipers or the bows.

[Voidflow]

As already mentioned by others:

1. consistancy in damage

2. kill speed

3. amount of enemies

The most enoying is 3.+1.

- We kind of need less but stronger enemies.

- Multishot 100%

- Something new about crits and weakspots.

btw. I love my Lanka, which is most used primary and to go weapon.

Fine rifle, but given points 1.-3. decrease its capability ...

[Azawarau]

The lanka disagrees

[unsiezer]

i dont know I am fine with the current speed of sniper rifles, I want to see more damage, and accuracy. so accuracy is easy just increase the base accuracy, but for damage make it dynamic so maybe increase weak point damage for sniper rifles above the bonus other weapons get, so since regular special body part shots increase damage by X2 and X4 on crit make a sniper rifle do X4 and X8 on crit. I would also like to see a sniper rifle with the ability to scope and see enemys through cover, and do a charged single shot that pierces walls/cover.

[Quizel]

i dont know I am fine with the current speed of sniper rifles, I want to see more damage, and accuracy. so accuracy is easy just increase the base accuracy, but for damage make it dynamic so maybe increase weak point damage for sniper rifles above the bonus other weapons get, so since regular special body part shots increase damage by X2 and X4 on crit make a sniper rifle do X4 and X8 on crit. I would also like to see a sniper rifle with the ability to scope and see enemys through cover, and do a charged single shot that pierces walls/cover.

Prelude

Well, accuracy of a sniper I believe is 100% while scoped unless you break the sniper by using heavy caliber (Lanka still manages just fine though with HC).

 

As for more damage comment, right now the issue isn't paper dps (technically leaps and bounds ahead of the infamous Boltor Prime for head shots-at least the way I mod it), it's the fact if you don't crit ur gonna have a bad time combined with the fact it's less capable of dealing with hordes of enemies than assault riffles, which happens quite often in WF.  Now I'm not specifically for buff'ing crit so that it reaches 100% since that could lead to stale game play in my mind, but at the same time, poor performance also leads to stale depressing game play. It's tricky business.

 

The comment here (post #20 and seen elsewhere in the forums) to make head shots 100% crit chance is appealing since it rewards you for skill. However, that could also lead to some extremely goofy balancing. In short, head shots with snipers could provide 3x the dps of a bow (even while using shred or metal auger) but barely even scratch the target if all you do is chest shots. As in, the Vectis could achieve 1 shot 1 kill reliably up to lvl 90'ish corrupted heavy gunner and 90% up to level 130'ish. Now the Lanka and not mod'ing for point strike but with 60% more viral elemental dmg, could 1 shot heavy gunners up to lvl 125'ish (150k dmg/shot) with 90% chance to take down a lvl 175'ish (300k dmg/shot).  

 

That's pretty insane and way beyond content I play. Endgame players that truly want to push the limits would be pretty much be forced to use snipers along with cc that allows them to line up shots easier. Head shots against many enemy types is by no means an easy task. Hell, I'm not even completely sure where the head of a infested charger is yet (head shot mesh often doesn't match in game visuals).  This could be countered by nerf'ing base dmg of snipers but that'd render them completely useless for chest shots (Lanka is already 7k to 14K non-crit aiming for chest dmg/shot fully mod'ed like the above statements).

 

It's just goofy theory crafting a weapon that has less purpose in combat until the go to assault riffles and/or Latron weapons no longer take down the target as quickly as the RoF of a sniper (which happens way farther into 'endgame' than the game is supposed to be balance for).  There is no great solution to make snipers valuable unless there's a change to core mechanics such as enemies that take massively reduced dmg from all sources except a sniper (nearly forcing at least 1 sniper in the team) or if everything becomes bullet sponges which would break the game for any low dmg/bullet weapon. I don't think anything stated thus far is a good idea yet tbh.

 

Body - Suggestion

 

My suggestion: Not flawless but a step in the right direction?

Players that use the sniper are allowed extremely quick weapon swapping (like takes 1/3 the current time->bows could also get this change) along with both buff'ing the crit chance to 33.6% and nerf'ing the base dmg by  ~25-35% or more. The net paper estimated dps of the sniper would be a loss (~23%'ish dmg reduction would be about the break even point depending on moding and headshot vs chest shots) but would allow 100% crit chance with Critical Delay or 84% chance per bulet w/o CD. 

 

Benifit: Players can use the sniper to take down priority targets with massive amount of health more reliably and then quickly swap to a secondary for the rest of the targets.

 

Body- Analysis

Here's a few printouts of what these changes entail for the paper dps using my spreadsheet I created over summer that can be found and downloaded in my profile.  The -35% base dmg reduction to compensate for the crit increase is what I chose for the theory crafting.   Only head shots are being considered while enemy type and proc dmg estimates are not.

 

Lanka and Vectis

Wep1 Lanka- Serration, Hcal, Split Chamber,Point Strike&Vital Sense, Speed Trigger, and 2 90% elemental mods

Wep2 Vectis - Serration, Split Chamber, Point Strike&Vital Sense, Charged Chamber, and 2 90% elemental mods (7 mods total leaving room for punch through)

 

 

Burst Fire (by setting Lanka's reload time to zero in case you were wondering)

 

Dmg per Shot Breakdown -> Shows odds of events

 

 

Comparing the two, Lanka is a ahead for the effective/sustained DpS but significantly ahead for the burst dps and about 54% higher dmg/shot. Given Lanka has a flight time it should have higher potential than the Vectis but perhaps not this much. Granted, the Lanka is using Hcal while the Vectis only has 7 mods (Lanka can handle Hcal with minimal issues and Vectis should be assumed to be modeled with punch through for best/closest comparison).  Additionally, the Lanka could prove more useful for procs and mod'ing fully for one faction type. Not going to get any more specific than that since I have no control over the final result anyway and it's highly subjective. 

 

 

 

Now for comparison of new Vectis to the Dread

Wep1: Dread - Serration, Split Chamber, Point Strike&Vital Sense, Hammer Shot, Speed Trigger, and 2 90% elemental mods

Wep2 Vectis - Serration, Split Chamber, Point Strike&Vital Sense, Charged Chamber, and 2 90% elemental mods (7 mods total leaving room for punch through)

 

Now there's a lot going on so I'm going to say a few things as best I can but it's very dense and opinionated. 

 

It's important to mention that Vectis's crit is still only at 84% without critical delay. At the same time though, Vectis can be mod'ed for even higher head shot dmg potential if the 8th mod used isn't punch through -> which is somewhat more beneficial if all you go for is head shots. Given that and I value hit scan a lot, the fact Vectis is behind on dps for this printout is alright/acceptable.

 

It's also worth noting the dread has streaky red crit estimates still included (removing red crit estimates puts dread at 44.3k eDpS). At the same time though, Dread also has a 12.6% chance to proc slash which raises the estimated dps considerably for head shots (~10k more dps-with both red crits and procs enabled, Dread sits at 66.4k DpS). Additionally, the infinite punch through does sometimes help a ton while the Vectis may not achieve the paper effective RoF in practice.  Also, having to force reload Vectis is annoying and cumbersome w/o a macro. Like I said, lots of stuff and angles to consider.

 

The bottom line is that Dread is better estimated dmg/shot and far better for chest shots and clearing high enemy density areas for the given builds. Comparing Dread back to Lanka I'd have to say I think Lanka is possibly performing too well but I do have Hcal mod'ed for it and only 84% crit chance. Mod'ing Lanka with critical delay (replacing Hcal or speed trigger mod) would massively lower eDpS to the point personally I wouldn't use it. To me this would be quite the decision to make between choosing Lanka (higher dps but slightly less dependable) or Vectis (lower dps but much more dependable).  

 

Given these findings I probably would reduce base damage by more than 35% but since I have no true control and it's highly subjective, I won't go into further depth to what I think the numbers should be. 

 

 

Thoughts and Questions? Essentially the goal is to keep bows being bows and make snipers more consistent crits with the option of 100% chance with CD. With the extra fast weapon swap, the fact snipers (and similarly bows) are poor against hordes of enemies isn't as horrible.  I think these changes would massively help snipers within Warframe without resorting to odd or extreme changes to the core game.

 

 

 

edit: I figured it's worth noting the change suggested nerf's chest shot dmg by like 20%. But with the quick weapon swapping bonus it could work out.  

Chest shot dmg printout of Lanka and Vectis with proposed changes-same build as above.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Quizel

[LancelotGray]

Just used Vectis, overall it is an okay weapon to use just that i'm wondering why a hand-pulled arrow can punch thru but a gunfire weapons can't do that?? it would be great if sniper rifles has build in punch thru like bows.

[angrykenji]

Bows:

- practically no reload speed

- crazy innate punch thru

- insane crit and/or status

- don't have to deal with huge zoomed in view

 

Snipers:

Edited October 13, 2014 by angrykenji

[Phoenix86]

I personally love my Vectis, the scope's overlay is not as crap as the others (is kinda clean),

it hits like a truck (3 forma's on it, for a total of 4*V)

 

Obviously Sniper's role was never meant to be the king of DPS...they are the king of DMG;

as many have said the Sniper takes off big targets in 1hit (that's why Banshee is my frame of choice generally).

 

If the situation goes crap i always have my loyal Brakk ready...

 

All in all i think that... beside the crappy scope's overlay Snipers are far from awful and perfectly on par with Paris Prime / Dread (which i also have fully forma'ed)

 

 

 

Just used Vectis, overall it is an okay weapon to use just that i'm wondering why a hand-pulled arrow can punch thru but a gunfire weapons can't do that?? it would be great if sniper rifles has build in punch thru like bows.

 

 

All snipers beside Vectis have Punch Through (dunno why Vectis did not get it...)

Edited October 13, 2014 by Phoenix86

[Rekkou]

When judging bow and sniper, people always assume the one behind the bow are hawkeye/green arrow who can insta-aim and always hit 100%. But the truth is you aren't them. Bow needs to charge, aim, if enemy is moving you either has to lead or wait, which require extra time. If they are far, you either have to compensate the drop or close in which require another extra time. And after you release the bow, you still have to wait for the travel time, which give enemies time to evade. And if you miss you have to start the process all over again.

 

Except for Lanka, Vectis and Vulkar are faster and hit instantly compared to bow. Aim and shoot is all you need, if you can't kill enemy with a single shot or you missed, you can easily fire the 2nd shot quickly.

 

In practice, bows might have 100% crit chance but they are slow and unreliable in actually hitting the target. While snipers have less critical chance but are more reliable and faster in actually hitting the target.

[Eric1738]

i wont say snipers are awful, but i cant deny that they are outclassed by bows. 

[Phoenix86]

i wont say snipers are awful, but i cant deny that they are outclassed by bows. 

 

As Rekkou said sniper have 1 big advantage over bows: hitscan

 

Being such allows to fire much faster... you cant deny that, often, you'll waste time with bows waiting for the enemy to stand still and such...

a problem that Sniper rifles dont have and since DPS is directly influenced by ur rate of fire...

[Eric1738]

As Rekkou said sniper have 1 big advantage over bows: hitscan

 

Being such allows to fire much faster... you cant deny that, often, you'll waste time with bows waiting for the enemy to stand still and such...

a problem that Sniper rifles dont have and since DPS is directly influenced by ur rate of fire...

i'm not denying that though. hitscan is an advantage but sometimes it's not enough.

[Oriviagene]

Why don't we gave snipers additional kind of ammunitions?

Like explosive rounds(100% Thunderbolt?)

so sniper can be used to dispatch a large crowd of enemies

[Phoenix86]

Why don't we gave snipers additional kind of ammunitions?

Like explosive rounds(100% Thunderbolt?)

so sniper can be used to dispatch a large crowd of enemies

 

that would not be a sniper rifle... 

 

anyway i dont get why Vectis didnt get innate punch through ffs

[Oriviagene]

that would not be a sniper rifle... 

 

anyway i dont get why Vectis didnt get innate punch through ffs

we're facing different kind of enemies on missions,either it's alone or group of enemies,what i mean we can choose what ammunition we want to use on our sniper rifle in game,on single enemies just use normal bullet,and on big crowd of enemies change into explosive bullet

this will make sniper a little more viable i think

[Vaskadar]

If they were to buff snipers again, I'd ask for a raw damage buff. It allows you to allocate more mods towards other things like elemental damage types.

[xethier]

base damage up by 30%, innate 1.2m punch-through, specialized scopes (for looking through objects, heat and/or x-ray)

and the ability to buff critical hit rate to 100% (with the use of BOTH point strike & critical delay)

 

this would not be overpowered simply by the reload times and low cyclic rate of the weapon.

 

it would hit harder (or as hard) as bows with better accuracy (especially at range) but would be limited by it's cyclic rate and reload times.

 

this would give them a niche without negating the use of bows.

[Quizel]

 

base damage up by 30%, innate 1.2m punch-through, specialized scopes (for looking through objects, heat and/or x-ray)

and the ability to buff critical hit rate to 100% (with the use of BOTH point strike & critical delay)

 

this would not be overpowered simply by the reload times and low cyclic rate of the weapon.

 

it would hit harder (or as hard) as bows with better accuracy (especially at range) but would be limited by it's cyclic rate and reload times.

 

this would give them a niche without negating the use of bows.

 

base dmg up by 30% and buff'ing base crit chance to 33.6% ? (33.6% would provide just barely over 100% crit chance with both ps and cd)

 

I did some calcs post #31 in this thread and I suggest you check it out >.>.  I think ur asking for an insane buff to paper dps when all we really need is consistency (post #31 is asking for consistency at the expense of paper dps). Furthermore, giving the sniper 1,000,000 paper dps doesn't help its inferiority vs crowds of enemies that aren't running up in single file for you.

 

The goal, or my goal, is to find a place in WF for the sniper that isn't focused merely on lvl 150+ content before they become a practical choice for performance.

 

My solution was 33.6% base crit, nerf base dmg by 25-35% or more, and allow very quick weapon swapping to the secondary or melee. The last change is to help with crowds by improving synergy with the secondary/melee. I believe such a change would provide a fun fast pace experience any marksman could appreciate w/o just giving an instant win mechanic to the sniper (ex: adding aoe rounds).

 

As for innate punch through, Vectis can mod for it if needed. It's pretty good at only 7 mods for hit scan weapon. 

Edited October 14, 2014 by Quizel

[xethier]

 

 

 

base dmg up by 30% and buff'ing base crit chance to 33.6% ? (33.6% would provide just barely over 100% crit chance with both ps and cd)

 

I did some calcs post #31 in this thread and I suggest you check it out >.>.  I think ur asking for an insane buff to paper dps when all we really need is consistency (post #31 is asking for consistency at the expense of paper dps). Furthermore, giving the sniper 1,000,000 paper dps doesn't help its inferiority vs crowds of enemies that aren't running up in single file for you.

 

The goal, or my goal, is to find a place in WF for the sniper that isn't focused merely on lvl 150+ content before they become a practical choice for performance.

 

My solution was 33.6% base crit, nerf base dmg by 25-35% or more, and allow very quick weapon swapping to the secondary or melee. The last change is to help with crowds by improving synergy with the secondary/melee. I believe such a change would provide a fun fast pace experience any marksman could appreciate w/o just giving an instant win mechanic to the sniper (ex: adding aoe rounds).

 

As for innate punch through, Vectis can mod for it if needed. It's pretty good at only 7 mods for hit scan weapon. 

 

 

you could boost the base damage by 200% and guarantee criticals with every single shot and the cyclic rate & clip sizes of these weapons would still limit it.

 

personally, i feel the sniper rifles in this game are more of a gimmick than anything else. until there's a tileset that has tiles that are 10x as big as any of the currently available ones, i don't see the point to a sniper rifle at all. (that said i love my vectis, i just wish there was a place to actually use it)

[Eldnacpeek]

Dread's arrows are the fastest traveling. Snipers are dead-on (except for you, Lanka, with your travel time. By default, and unranked, your Cons outweigh your Pros: Not Hit-Scan, and charge time). That's my useless input.

[Eyeless]

Sniper Rifles need to get crits 100% of the time on headshots, maybe even have a Sniper Rifle that has a very high chance for Red Crits on every headshot. 

 

As for what xethier suggested, erm, we really shouldn't need Critical Delay to get max crit rate on Sniper Rifles. Dread and Paris Prime, this weapon classes two main contenders only need a max Point Strike. 

 

This doesn't mean the Bows need nerfed, the Sniper Rifles just need a serious buff to make them worth using with everything else the game has. 

[Quizel]

Sniper Rifles need to get crits 100% of the time on headshots

 

Doing such a  thing would basically force anyone trying to go the distance to mod their weapon w/o point strike and only go for head shots. From memory I think I remember Lanka estimated at 300k per shot (2projectiles) if such a change were put in place without modifying the other stats.  And that's not even considering enemy weaknesses.

 

The reward for head shot would be so incredibly high while getting a mere chest shot would be so incredibly worthless. It just wouldn't make sense.

 

Far as requiring snipers to use CD to get to 100% crit, I think adding some chance and randomness is far funner than knowing the exact outcome each shot.  If a player doesn't think 84% crit chance is good enough (a mere 3.9% chance you won't get at least 1 crit each trigger pull), they can mod with CD and get to 100%.  The estimated dmg of these weapons on head shots is insane-meaning they can afford to slap on CD. 

 

 

you could boost the base damage by 200% and guarantee criticals with every single shot and the cyclic rate & clip sizes of these weapons would still limit it.

I kind of also said that in different words :D. My whole post actually suggested lowering estimated dmg/shot >.>.  

 

I'm curious to what others think about allowing extremely fast weapon swapping when using snipers/bows though.  Snipe the high hp priority target than swap to secondaries to finish everything else off. Fast pace gameplay that rewards skilled players who enjoy the marksman play style by giving them a larger tool box of options and synergy with their loadout. It basically removes a snipers short comings by allowing them quick access to the secondary.

[SpadedTail]

List of Arguments and their rebuttals:

 

Bows are better than snipers in every way.

 

False. Bows can reach higher damage but sacrifice range and accuracy. Bows shoot arcing projectiles that take long to reach the target while a Vectis insta-hits your enemy and the projectile never drops. This means the Vectis' effective range is near infinite (as long as see them in your scope) while bows require ludicrous aiming, calculating and predicting enemy movement which sincerely is in most cases not viable. 

Conclusion: Snipers are better in long range, bows are better in medium range

 

Snipers are weak. 

 

False. I hit 20k crits with my Vectis easily. If i bring Mirage and use eclipse, i can multiply that damage by 4, and if there's an electric-shield-stacking Volt in the squad I can easily go over 70k per shot. That's not weak at all. Just do headshots. 

 

Fire rate is too slow.

 

False. Press R as soon as you fire with the vectis to insta-reload it, skipping the automatic delay. This makes you shoot once every 0.7 seconds, guaranteed. 

 

They don't have enough maps where they're useful. 

 

True. Very few maps have long-range areas, and even there enemies don't fight back so there is no actual long-range combat. Also, Warframe is a zerg-based game where enemies attack in masses, which means the Vectis will always be below the Ogris unless you're fighting bosses. 

 

That's my 2 cents