Concern About Ability Removal

[Semshol]

This isn't a matter of better vs worse. This is a matter of you may want to have a duration based skill last less time than it would when maxed. Miasma, for example, benefits from reduced duration. Have it unranked and it lasts even less time. Do your damage faster. I'm not saying it is better, I am saying you shouldn't need to buy the warframe again just to try the mods at a lower level.

 

Just put a maxed fleeting expertise, combined with the intensify and rank blind rage to get your 57% increase dps and 25 power cost ult?

 

Isn't that the standard for Saryn? All pro-players use it. Some even go for maxed blind rage.

 

You do less damage unranked because although its duration based, the cost remains the same and the damage is lower, also duration is static at all levels.

 

So...wut?

 

Are we playing the same game OP?

 

Here is the wiki on Saryn, please check yo:

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Saryn_(Warframe)

 

Click the ability tab.

 

Would you like to know more?

Edited October 10, 2014 by Semshol

[Elvang]

They also said in U16 power mods would be irrelevant so I theory crafted a bit.

Powers will be placed on a skill tree, the basic versions of each will be unlocked from the start. Earning levels of focus will allow you to add effects to them to tailor builds to you liking.

I assume health, shields, weapon damage, armor, multistage, and other "must have mods" will also be included in this setup so the mod slots can finally be used for making unique builds and not just having the same cards on every gun/frame.

None of that is confirmed, just seemed like something DE would do based on all the comments over the past devstreams.

We went from trees in closed beta (pre-U7) to Mods 1.0. DE won't be going back to trees.

[Imaru]

Just put a maxed fleeting expertise, combined with the intensify and rank blind rage to get your 57% increase dps and 25 power cost ult?

 

Isn't that the standard for Saryn? All pro-players use it. Some even go for maxed blind rage.

 

You do less damage unranked because although its duration based, the cost remains the same and the damage is lower, also duration is static at all levels.

 

So...wut?

 

Are we playing the same game OP?

 

Here is the wiki on Saryn, please check yo:

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Saryn_(Warframe)

 

Click the ability tab.

 

Would you like to know more?

Again you miss the point. I'm not saying this is better. I am mearly providing an example of why you MIGHT (not would, MIGHT) want to use an unranked or low ranked mod. I wasn't saying at any point that it is superior to a maxed mod, nor was I saying that it makes more sense. I was only saying that you if you want to try out an unranked version of an ability mod, it shouldn't cost you some 200 plat. That's all this thread is about. How much more clear can I make it?

[Rydian]

It's hard to understand, because...why would you want to gimp yourself and use an unranked ability?

 

It makes no sense whatsoever.

Maybe the frame...

 

Wait for it.

 

Maybe the frame...

 

Brace yourself.

 

Maybe the frame...

 

Is not rank 30 but you want to have an ability slotted to be able to use it at all and you don't have the points for maxing the ability.  This applies when first raising the frame, but also when using a forma on a frame.

[Imaru]

Maybe the frame...

 

Wait for it.

 

Maybe the frame...

 

Brace yourself.

 

Maybe the frame...

 

Is not rank 30 but you want to have an ability slotted to be able to use it at all and you don't have the points for maxing the ability.  This applies when first raising the frame, but also when using a forma on a frame.

THANK YOU.

[(PSN)D4rk50ul-v2]

I would rather have rare mods drop more often than pickup my 600th Tornado. Fair Trade off IMO.

[Kaethill]

Maybe the frame...

 

Wait for it.

 

Maybe the frame...

 

Brace yourself.

 

Maybe the frame...

 

Is not rank 30 but you want to have an ability slotted to be able to use it at all and you don't have the points for maxing the ability.  This applies when first raising the frame, but also when using a forma on a frame.

Well then you rearrenge the mods you have equipped, or you DON'T max a ability out before your frame is high enough rank? i really need to ask: Why would you have a max ability before you have a higher leveled frame? And also "Brace yourself" really? you make it sound like he did not see that possiblility. Maybe he did, but figured, like me: Hey i don't think anybody would do that.

Anyway, i agree with the idea of the ability mods NOT costing Platinum, while i would actually prefer them not being removed from the drop table (My credits source, since i no longer have the time to farm the credits).

[Elvang]

Well then you rearrenge the mods you have equipped, or you DON'T max a ability out before your frame is high enough rank? i really need to ask: Why would you have a max ability before you have a higher leveled frame?

 

 

 

Maybe the frame...

 

Is not rank 30 but you want to have an ability slotted to be able to use it at all and you don't have the points for maxing the ability.  This applies when first raising the frame, but also when using a forma on a frame.

[TMHowler]

Maybe the frame...

 

Wait for it.

 

Maybe the frame...

 

Brace yourself.

 

Maybe the frame...

 

Is not rank 30 but you want to have an ability slotted to be able to use it at all and you don't have the points for maxing the ability.  This applies when first raising the frame, but also when using a forma on a frame.

Really now?I'm calling this argument invalid Why? because listen to this:

I go with max ranked abilities at rank 5 of my frame (doesn't matter which) with a bit of vitality on to cerberus pluto. I rarely fall down.

Edited October 10, 2014 by TMHowler

[DJ_Redwire]

I'm just gonna go ahead and bypass all the naysayers who completely missed the initial point of the thread - not naming names of course. 

 

 

There are two simple solutions to the problem, OP. The first and most obvious one would be to have the mods readily available somewhere else to obtain outside of trading or drops; such as being able to purchase ability mods in the market for credits.

 

My guess is however, that based on how the issue was presented during the Devstream that Scott and Steve and everyone else who was involved in the internal discussion, probably evaluated that option and found some sort of reason not to. Whatever those reasons might be we may never know, but I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt for now and assume whatever the reason was, it was a good reason.

 

 

The second option I see is then to allow free-form mod underclocking - where you are allowed to set a mod to a lower rank once you have achieved the required fusion level for that rank. (Ex. I have a rank 9 Serration, but I want to use it as a rank 7 Serration for the time being because I'm ranking up a new weapon but lack space at the moment - so I simply turn a dial or hit a button that allows me to lower the rank of that mod at will, and then I can turn it back up to rank 9 whenever I want).

 

I have yet to see any significant discussion about that idea - considering it's most certainly not a new idea - so it remains to be seen if that would be a viable solution.

Edited October 10, 2014 by DJ_Redwire

[alfaomega04]

I understand the concern and the thought process of being forced to recraft the frame to get more mods.

 

HOWEVER, there is a MUCH simpler and better solution to all this and comes with benefits. Add forma :D Ta da! problem solved. No need to use unranked mods as the only reason to this is really so you can fit in that particular mod into a build that has absolutely no more points to give.

 

I myself run my radial blind built with a rank2 slashdash. This allows to max everything else and still have that ability for simply utility reasons, so no need to take it to rank3. But let's say someone wants to use my build but abilities aren't available any more from drops, what to do? Simply add another forma and then you can add your maxed rank slashdash. This will most likely leave you with 4 extra points on the build but it's a better and easier thing to do than going about recrafting another excal.

 

So all this worrying about not being able to use unranked abilities is really blown out proportion and unnecessary when there's already a solution.

[DJ_Redwire]

I would rather have rare mods drop more often than pickup my 600th Tornado. Fair Trade off IMO.

 

This makes me wonder if people realize that the removal of ability mods from the drop tables will not necessarily make other more rare mods drop more often. The rates at which mods drop are independent of other rates. Sure, there might be less in the table for RNG to pick from - but that means all they have to do is reduce the percentage (chance) at which other mods drop at.

 

When ability mods were removed from transmutation, everyone, including myself, thought the RNG of transmutation would improve and mods that had previously been elusive would perhaps have a little higher chance of dropping. The result we received was the exact opposite - and to this day transmutation is as treacherous as it was before ability mods were removed. Needless to say not much has changed in a year.

[Rydian]

Well then you rearrenge the mods you have equipped, or you DON'T max a ability out before your frame is high enough rank? i really need to ask: Why would you have a max ability before you have a higher leveled frame? And also "Brace yourself" really? you make it sound like he did not see that possiblility. Maybe he did, but figured, like me: Hey i don't think anybody would do that.

So I take it you've never used a Forma on a frame?

 

Using a Forma on a frame or weapon resets it back to unranked.

 

Meaning you're back to 0 mod points and you need to rank it back up to 30 again.

 

Really now?I'm calling this argument invalid Why? because listen to this:

I go with max ranked abilities at rank 5 of my frame (doesn't matter which) with a bit of vitality on to cerberus pluto. I rarely fall down.

Not everything has a potato in it (especially not frames being ranked for the first time by newbies or by people who are not sure if they want to put a potato into a frame they might not like), and most frames are not slotted for Steel Charge meaning they get +14 points instead of +18.

 

Given no potato and assuming a +14 point mod on Nyx Prime (a good example since she's the newest frame and thus one a lot of people are raising), you cannot fit all four abilities at rank 0.  At rank 5 you will be able to fit all the abilities, but you will have 1 point free, which is only enough for single lowest-power vitality, and that's assuming a frame like Nyx Prime which has a D-polarity.  This is not nearly enough to save you on Pluto.

 

 

 

However if you were able to put all the abilities in at the minimum rank...

 

 

Then once you hit rank 5 you'd have 9 points to spare, which, given the D polarity, would allow a max-rank vitality, or a mid-rank vitality and a redirection, or whatever combo you want of health and shields.

[TMHowler]

A very bad choice for example I must say. (D polarity with 1 point left (@ rank 5) = unranked vitality)

If you're to use Nyx as an example, use the non-Prime, because just now you supported my case, instead of opposing it

 

EDIT: The frames that can't run "my meta" (assuming they do have Steel Charge, which is quite easy to get and very cheap when it comes to plat trades) are: Excalibur(normal;blank aura), Hydroid (no D), Nekros (Blank aura), Nova (no D), Nyx (normal; no D), Vauban (no D) and Zephyr (no D polarity within the non-aura slots).

 

EDIT 2: Of course with exception for Cal, by the time you get the other frames, you will probably have a potato or at least the plat to afford one. Of course there are exceptions here.

Edited October 10, 2014 by TMHowler

[nyiinx]

Damn, what's with the argument of "why would you ever use not-maxed abilities"

And I don't even want to hear about "pro-players" and "optimum build" , because this game allows for customization, and also allows players to play however the hell they want.

 

If I want to go flightless Zephyr or angry, suicidal melee Loki, I can.
 

And you can, too.


#freedomtoplayhowever

 

 

Okay, in all seriousness, I do worry a little about abilities being removed. I have built Nyx and it was missing ALL of her ability mods, and I had to buy them from trading.

Meh, adjustable mod rank would be amazing, but I just don't see DE doing it.


In all fairness, though, I said the same thing about trading.

[tehgreg]

we should be allowed to adjust mod rank freely once maxed. i hardly see any problem of that.

 

This should be a thing.

 

OR just put these abilities mods on the market for credits.

[sp33chle55]

I would just disable that you could erase an ability mod completely. So the game checks if you have that frame for the ability and if you got it it wont let you do anything with the mod if its count is 1.

So it cant happen to lose an ability mod. You will always have at least 1 ability mod of each ability. Problem solved.

Maxing of the mod is still possible of course.

Edited October 10, 2014 by sp33chle55

[Monolake]

I would just disable that you could erase an ability mod completely. So the game checks if you have that frame for the ability and if you got it it wont let you do anything with the mod if its count is 1.

So it cant happen to lose an ability mod. You will always have at least 1 ability mod of each ability. Problem solved.

Maxing of the mod is still possible of course.

this is already in place

[alfaomega04]

This makes me wonder if people realize that the removal of ability mods from the drop tables will not necessarily make other more rare mods drop more often. The rates at which mods drop are independent of other rates. Sure, there might be less in the table for RNG to pick from - but that means all they have to do is reduce the percentage (chance) at which other mods drop at.

That's actually may be incorrect. I used "may" because I'm not sure how DE will arrange the different rates.

 

I'll make simple example:

 

Let's say the lancer has four mods on his drop table and drop rates are as follow.

50% - tailwind

20% - common fusion core

20% - fast hands

10% - r5 core

 

If the percentages are kept equal when the abilities are removed and the percentages are scaled, this would leave us with this:

40% - common fusion core

40% - fast hands

20% - r5 core

This means your chances to get the rare drop did actually increase. However, what did not increase is the chance for MODS to drop, but in case you roll a successful mod drop, you now have an extra 10% chance for that rare drop. The only way your chances for rare mods to NOT increase would be DE manually changed the drop rates and do no scale them naturally. For example this is something they could do:

45% - common fusion core

45% - fast hands

10% - r5 core

 

In that top example the 10% of the rare was forced and the ratio of percentages was changed, thus artificially keeping the 10% r5 drop rate. But I really don't think DE will go this route.

 

But here's the real important part from EVERYTHING I said above. Are we as individuals going to notice a 0.2% increase in the drop rate for crimson dervish once the abilities have been removed?? Not at all!

 

TL;DR - the chances for rare drops will increase (if de doesn't mess with the drop ratios), but it won't really affect us as individuals. 

[sp33chle55]

this is already in place

My Bad, last time i fused some ability mods i could erase all of mine, but if its in place by now im fine. So where is the problem we are talking about? If you cant get rid of the ability mods by simply having the needed frame i dont see a problem with getting them again if you cant lose them in the first place.

[Elvang]

-snip-

That's not how DE has(had) their drop tables setup for mods. Each rarity has a set percentage for occuring, with the individual mod's chances being scaled to it (missing rarities affects the set percentage that the mods are subsequently scaled against). Adding or removing a mod from a rarity rescales the chances for that mod to occur within that rarity. So your chance of getting a rare mod does not go up if you add/remove rare mods to a mob, only the chance for getting a specific mod in that rarity when that rarity is rolled.

 

Each tier of rarities has a set total drop chance that does not change based on number of mods within the respective tier.

 

EDIT:

 

My Bad, last time i fused some ability mods i could erase all of mine, but if its in place by now im fine. So where is the problem we are talking about? If you cant get rid of the ability mods by simply having the needed frame i dont see a problem with getting them again if you cant lose them in the first place.

Some warframes currently can't be acquired more than once, or doing so is problematic. The issue isn't about losing the mods you already have, but being unable to get unranked copies of them for build mutability.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Elvang

[sp33chle55]

Yeah, but this will be solved with the upcoming downgrading ability. I thought de has already confirmed this will be a thing.

[Elvang]

Yeah, but this will be solved with the upcoming downgrading ability. I thought de has already confirmed this will be a thing.

It isn't confirmed, they were merely considering the ability to derank a mod for a cost.

[sp33chle55]

Ah ok. I got that wrong then. My bad. Then im supporting the idea to be able to downgrade ability mods on purpose if you have it maxed.

Or you should be able to just buy them or bps for creds in the dojo or something.

Edited October 10, 2014 by sp33chle55

[Kazzamo]

You know, the argument has some merits. But not when you talk about mirage since her powers aren't in the drop table anyway so it's already in effect for her. So yeah nothing changes there. So there, and since she's the only frame you can only get once... problem solved?