Concern About Ability Removal

[RoboDoge]

Because many advanced builds require a little more thought then throwing a bunch of maxed mods at a frame and seeing if it works.

 

And as far as the OP, I don't understand why all abilities don't just cost 2-5p to buy from the market. It would serve as an excellent platinum sink and would solve the issue completely.

And how do those advance builds help you? Every mission on starchart ( even Void ) can be done with normal builds. Minmaxing is for people that are addicted to having maxed stats even if they dont have anywhere to use that.

 

 

If you ask me, formaing one of the ability slots is worst thing to do as abilities are getting reworked constantly.

[SleepingSentry]

You can always buy unranked abilities from me (or someone else I guess).  Considering how little reason there is to use them they should be pretty cheap.  Molecular prime for speed nova and wormhole at 2/3 to save a point are the only abilities out of all the frames I've ever considered not maxing.

Edited October 10, 2014 by SleepingSentry

[Chaosdreamer]

Why does it matter? Why should I care? I use all the abilties at max rank anyway.

Simply because you're not alone in the game , and you can make many kind of build,and you use all those power can't imagine how bad you're ;)

[Ionus]

Simply because you're not alone in the game , and you can make many kind of build,and you use all those power can't imagine how bad you're ;)

Really, there is absolutely no reason to have a non-max rank ability mod in an effective build. Anybody who says otherwise is kidding themselves about their "well thought out build." All maximized and combat efficient builds either make room for the maxed ability mods, or forma them out to free up space.

Me? I'm the guy who doesn't forma ANY ability slots. I feel uneasy when I don't have every ability at my disposal.

Also you can't use "you're" interchangeably with "you are" at the end of a sentence like that. Stop it. >.>

[Hieulelam]

Really, there is absolutely no reason to have a non-max rank ability mod in an effective build. Anybody who says otherwise is kidding themselves about their "well thought out build." All maximized and combat efficient builds either make room for the maxed ability mods, or forma them out to free up space.

Me? I'm the guy who doesn't forma ANY ability slots. I feel uneasy when I don't have every ability at my disposal.

Also you can't use "you're" interchangeably with "you are" at the end of a sentence like that. Stop it. >.>

you do realise that ability do work outside of ability slot right? so go ahead and forma at least one away because the first ability will cost very little so might as well equip it as a blank.

[(XBOX)ApheX rv]

well i think its good that they will be taken out of the drop tables will make trading and colecting the mods more interesting :)

[Ionus]

you do realise that ability do work outside of ability slot right? so go ahead and forma at least one away because the first ability will cost very little so might as well equip it as a blank.

If you're gonna forma out the ability slot then why would you continue to use an ability in the blank slot for twice the cost? It's counterintuitive.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Ionus

[DJ_Redwire]

-snip-

 

Nope, sorry. As Elvang put it, "your chance of getting a rare mod does not go up if you add/remove rare mods to a mob..."

 

We know this from arcane examples when data mining was still possible. Another great example of this is the void drop tables. Let's say you have 5 items in your T3 Exterminate table. One of them, a Rhino Prime helmet as an example, seems to no drop very often compared to all of the other items. Let's say the rates for the 5 items in this table are as follows:

 

[THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL DROP TABLE]

 

Forma Bp - 40%

Hikou Prime Bp - 25%

Orthos Prime Blade - 20%

Orthos Prime Bp - 35%

Mag Prime Chassis - 10%

Rhino Prime Helmet - 0.5%

 

Now let's 'clean up' the drop table a bit by removing the Orthos Bp and the blade.

 

Forma Bp - 40%

Hikou Prime Bp - 25%

Mag Prime Chassis - 10%

Rhino Prime Helmet - 0.5%

 

Notice how the net % does not have to equal 100%. That may seem nonsensical at first - but you have to understand what a percentage is, or rather, what it can be, on a mathematical level before jumping to the conclusion that every time a table has something added/removed that the rates automatically adjust. They don't.

 

Another way to write "40%" is 0.4. Any person with an elementary school education knows this, of course. And another way of writing 0.4 is 4/10. And ANOTHER way of writing 4/10 is 4:10.

 

"40%" "0.4" "4:10" and "4/10" are all different mathematical expressions of the same value - and therefore mean the same thing. We as average humans tend to write things like drop rates in percentages because it's easy to understand quickly and little thinking is required to get the jist of the idea that's being conveyed - but some of the meaning is sometimes lost.

 

Let's look at the example of 4/10. Most people are familiar with this expression as a fraction, which is undoubtedly true, but it also expresses a ratio, which is the reason why we can say 4/10 is the same thing as 4:10. But what does 4/10 mean in the context of something like a 'chance' scenario? In this case, it can be translated as "for every 10 occurrences of a certain action, a given result is likely to happen 4 times out of every 10."

 

We have just determined the rate of chance that a Forma BP can drop at - without even taking into consideration any of the other items in the table. Thus, we know then that the rates of each item can and are independent of one another.

 

 

All of this being said - you can bet for certain that the mod drop rates WILL be adjusted - for better or worse. DE will not simply leave them static. I can almost guarantee that whatever mod you might be looking for [and we're talking rare mods here of course] from the table is not going to have any higher of a chance to drop than it did before. Regardless of any of the math, that's not how DE works. Things are going to be just as difficult as they always have been.

Edited October 10, 2014 by DJ_Redwire

[Shehriazad]

They could simply allow us to select the rank level of ability mods "freely"


Let's say you maxed out an ability. You get a little slider or button that will then allow you to freely choose anywhere from the ranks of the mods. Problem solved.


They can remove clutter from the droptables and advanced builds will be just fine.

[RoboDoge]

They could simply allow us to select the rank level of ability mods "freely"

Let's say you maxed out an ability. You get a little slider or button that will then allow you to freely choose anywhere from the ranks of the mods. Problem solved.

They can remove clutter from the droptables and advanced builds will be just fine.

I can see logic in this, but DE doesnt. Why should you only have one Vitality when you can spend time on farming cores to get another one to level 8? Its how DE thinks.

[Rydian]

I can see logic in this, but DE doesnt. Why should you only have one Vitality when you can spend time on farming cores to get another one to level 8? Its how DE thinks.

Agreed here.  Being able to freely control mod rank up to the max you've ranked it up has been a requested feature since Mods 2.0 came out.

 

DE has not done it because they don't like the idea of people not having to spend lots of credits and cores on the process.  Game devs like sinks.

[BrazilianJoe]

I think that an actual problem is more important than a hypothetical problem in this case. 

 

Drop table dilution is a very real important problem. "Perhaps I may need to use a non-maxed mod" is very perhapsylishly situational. Maybe. And enough forma-ing will (most likely) nullify the problem, eventually. 

 

So, unless there are actual builds that *require* unranked mods for a fact, in the sense that the build works BETTER with the unranked one, I wouldn't be too concerned.

 

I would actually like to see (not in a smartassy way, I really want) ppl post build where unranked abilities are the preferred choice. 

 

That said, I would also like to have underclocking of mods as an option, but I don't see it as a too high-priority item. Being able to take advantage of unused mod points to buff the frame/weapon would be more interesting for me.

Edited October 10, 2014 by BrazilianJoe

[Arlayn]

Really? Enlighten me on this then. Why would you NOT use a max rank mod? Too lazy to polarize?

Sometimes the mods placed on a warframe when maxed out even with Forma leaves not enough.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Arlayn

[alfaomega04]

[THIS IS A HYPOTHETICAL DROP TABLE]

 

Forma Bp - 40%

Hikou Prime Bp - 25%

Orthos Prime Blade - 20%

Orthos Prime Bp - 35%

Mag Prime Chassis - 10%

Rhino Prime Helmet - 0.5%

 

Now let's 'clean up' the drop table a bit by removing the Orthos Bp and the blade.

 

Forma Bp - 40%

Hikou Prime Bp - 25%

Mag Prime Chassis - 10%

Rhino Prime Helmet - 0.5%

 

Notice how the net % does not have to equal 100%. That may seem nonsensical at first - but you have to understand what a percentage is, or rather, what it can be, on a mathematical level before jumping to the conclusion that every time a table has something added/removed that the rates automatically adjust. They don't.

 

That's exactly what I tried to explain in my original example which your example further supports, but you still got your argument wrong. 

 

What you have described above is the ratio of the parts in relation to each other, not the percentage of their drop rate which is basically a pie chart which will still limit you to 100%, regardless of the ratios or number of actual items in the table. Let's make this easier to see by using your example. So your ratios are:

40:25:10:0.5  which can easily be converted into actual percentages 53.3%:33.1%:13.2%,0.07%

 

So let's make this example more extreme, let's clean it up even more and only leave two parts. 

10:0.5   

 

Ok, so as you can see, the ratios are the same. But here are the new percentages of the how often they each will actually drop 95.2%:4.8%

 

While it is clear the ratios remained the same, the actual number of times it will drop really does increase (.07% versus 4.8%), which is exactly what my first post tried to explain and somehow people misunderstood. 

 

And to make this even MORE pedantic, you can take your own example even further and only leave 0.5 which is still keeping the same ratios in relation to other parts (ie, none at this point) and will increase the actual drop percentage to 100%. So yes, removing items from the drop tables DOES increase the percentage of the other items dropping.

Edited October 10, 2014 by alfaomega04

[Katinka]

Given that the chance of an item (any item from the list) dropping as a Void reward is 1, removing items must increase the chance of each remaining item occuring.  In the case of Void rewards, we always get one item from the list and only one.  They are not separate chances independent of each other and capable of both occuring or neither occuring.  There will always be one and only one and as such the percentage do have to add to 100% as there is a 100% chance that we will get something from that list.

 

Mods are another matter though.  I'm not a data miner so I don't know how the mod drops from enemies work but here's a few possible methods:  (kinda long so skip it if you know how mod drops are calculated and just tell me)

 

Each mod has it's own independent chance.  This would mean an enemy could drop multiple mods at once so is unlikely but would mean that removing ability mods would make no difference.

Each enemy has one random number generated on death and a list of what numbers correspond to what mods with blanks when you don't get a mod.  In this case removing abilities might leave a blank and we get nothing instead or the space might be filled by something else as dev's see fit but no guarantee of rares getting easier to find.

Each enemy has a chance of dropping a mod and, if successful, a separate random number determines the reward. This would mean the chance of individual mods would go up as the table get smaller.

Each enemy has a chance of dropping a mod and, if successful, a separate random number determines rarity followed by a third random number determining the mod within that rarity.  In this case the net chance of mods of the same rarity as the removed ability will go up while other rarities will remain the same.

 

I'll be happy if it means I come out of Void runs with Common 5 Cores in place of the 'Pull's I normally get.  I think I have about 120 of that now.

[Mak_Gohae]

 

Drop table dilution is a very real important problem.

 

This is neither real nor important.

Taking away Warframe ability mods will not miraculously cause rare drops to drop more because DE controls the drop rate.

Removing those abilities will just have DE moving other crappy mods into the place those ability mods held. So get ready for a bunch of faster reload speed, bigger weapon clip mods, and other crap like that. 

 

Rare items will always rare no matter how much stuff is drops.

[Monybags33]

People have been asking for Mod specific Warframe abilities too be removed from drop tables for some time now and yet now all I keep hearing is a bunch of hate for giving the community what they constantly complained about, the Developers should not have just listened too the public on this one and not think about the big picture. If Warframe abilities go away one side is going too be happy and the other is not, really starting too wonder why everyone is fighting each other on this topic rather then agreeing that both sides have dam well good points.

 

Some people want Warframe abilities ranked down, others demand no one should even be using lower ranked mods and say higher ones are better. Really people enough of this bickering we all know options are better then things written in stone so why argue who's right or wrong?

 

Warframe should just give people the ability too rank down ONLY their Warframe mods when they choose, such a option would give both sides freedom on it and end this meaningless argument of who is right or wrong.

[Inversus]

I'm wrong.

Ignore me.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Inversus

[Imaru]

Necro-ing my thread because I came up with a (in my mind) very valid reason for having lower rank ability mods (as that is what the argument in this thread is ultimately about).

 

Tactical alerts. Yup. You need to lower your conclave value to run them. Lower level ability mods=lower conclave (for most frames). Sure you could run less weapons, but some of us don't want to do that. 

[Dasmir]

My biggest problem with this? Market crash

 

 

Once ability mods are removed,t heres a higher tendency for drops of rares. While this is good, it will also potentially negatively affect the market. What i'm even more worried about is that the solution will to be nerfing the drops of rares, at which point we are left with the same mod rarity, but now we don't even have the fusion fuel ability mods...

 

 

How about no ?

[Rydian]

Necro-ing my thread because I came up with a (in my mind) very valid reason for having lower rank ability mods (as that is what the argument in this thread is ultimately about).

 

Tactical alerts. Yup. You need to lower your conclave value to run them. Lower level ability mods=lower conclave (for most frames). Sure you could run less weapons, but some of us don't want to do that. 

Given the conclave rating of some ability mods, that's actually a good reason.

 

Examples...

Absorb is 120 at max, but only 50 at ranks 0 and 1.

Mind Control is 60 at max, but only 10 at ranks 0 and 1.

 

Downgrading abilities temporarily would be a good way to slightly weaken your frame.

[BrazilianJoe]

Yes. Tactical alerts are a good reason. Importance of power-dialing upgraded mods just been raised.