Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Lack Of Difficulty Or Too Difficult Game? Mod Balance?


omegaskorpion
 Share

Recommended Posts

When i first started playing warframe i had no idea what i was facing.

 

First levels felt hard and exiting, only armed with lato and braton and later with lex, akbolto and boltor.

 

Bosses like jackal and vor felt hard and chalenging.

 

Until i got my hands on better weapons and mods.

 

After that game started to become too easy, every enemy and boss felt like eating cheese, not much chalenge there.

 

Right now (after all weapons formad and potatoed and frames upgrated to max) nothing is chalenging. how ever T4 void started to give bit more chalenge alone and excavation gives so many enemy hordes that even my weapons cant keep up how fast they spawn.

 

Wich is good.

 

 

 

How ever...

 

This game suffers in my oppinion about 2 major things. (and few others that i will cover later)

 

1 mods mods don't realy create customization since they are always needed and our weapons are pointless without them (just like our frames).

 

2 power creeps our weapons have such big stats differences that holy s#it. I have nothing against progression but leaving so many unique guns useless is kind of an waist.

 

(others)

 

 

Game still does not have good stealth so ninja in title is kind of pointless right now.

 

Parcour needs overhaul

 

enemys need level variety

 

melee enemys need better scaling

 

(plot where are you :O )

 

Hit scan weapons, it would be greater if warframe had "real life" bullet mechanics. (it would not change much, but longer rainges give little bit more chalenge to us, and the enemy)

 

 

 

To create better enemy chalenge later in game we need dificulty sliders in all planets, so we can change the dificulty.

 

Tier 1  1-10

Tier 2  10-15

Tier 3  15-20

Tier 4  20-25

Tier 5  25-30

Tier 6  30-35

Tier 7  35-40

Tier 8  40-45

Tier 9  45-50

 

Why?

 

because im sick and tired of seeing void all the time.

Also to create chalenge for older players but ease up the game play of newer players.

(higher dificulty would mean better drops too?)

 

Melee enemys

 

In my oppinion the melee enemys in this game are joke (exept infested)

 

They never give any chalenge and die almost instantly in battlefield.

 

In my oppinion melee enemys should be wery fast and agile, being able to combat roll and do highly damaging melee combos and block bullets.

 

Guardsman were good trie but they cant take much damage, so i suggest that melee enemys also have better bullet/laser resistance.

 

Their biggest weakness should be melee blocking.

 

They should be enaugh big theath to be shot first, also if they get close, we could roll to dodge their attacks or block. (dark souls fashion)

 

(wich makes me think that when we are out of stamina, should we hit with melee slower?)

 

 

I have idea how to fix the mods (but its bit questionable)

 

 

All mods should have Pros and Cons so they would not be always needed.

(basicly making all mods corrupted, how ever i have no idea how to remake corrupted mods then)

 

 

Our warframe abilities wont have down sides, how ever their damage would get high decrease.

 

If our weapons would not need mods 100% of the time it would create "balanced" enviroment meaning that enemys dont need to scale with damage and healt all the time to create chalenge, they could give chalenge by masses or hevier enemys (bombards, heavy gunners)

 

(this could solve the proplems that delopers have when creating new weapons, enemys and chalenges)

 

 

i had my idea how to fix weapon balance: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/316990-possibility-to-make-all-weapons-viable-over-time/

 

 

 

 

How do you feel about warframe difficulty and balance... or the mods?

Edited by omegaskorpion
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why balance mods? Why not balance the enemies properly so they don't become bullet sponges and bazooka holders? I don't think balancing the mods is the way to go.

 

do you know the reason why we can kill out enemys so easy?

mods: addional 200% damage realy punches tru enemy armor/shields (and mods scale even better with good stats weapons)

 

Enemy balance is other thing, its not just the mods (but they have huge role in it) but AI behavior and their stats.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its a bit odd how I find "difficulty" in this game.

 

I can solo Pluto without really thinking about it, but Eris is too difficult, to the point where I refuse to go there.

 

Operation Cryotic Front was VERY difficult, to the point where I never got the opportunity to complete it and ended up missing out on Latron Wraith.

 

Tower 4 is a breeze, no problem, but Tower 3 is a no-go zone for me, I can't do it. I think the spawning algorithms are slightly different between T3 and T4, which causes more enemies to spawn in T3, making it harder than T4, when T4's "difficulty" is only based around Vor and a slightly raised armour scale for regular mobs.

 

So basically..."Difficulty" is completely ****ed...

 

As for mods, I think because all mods are on a percentile basis, it makes some of them not scale enough, and others scale too much, which breaks the difficulty of the game if people can get it to scale "Well" enough. I think if we had some percentile basis mods, and some mods that scaled via other mathematics, it would work a bit better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The games difficulty is perfect as of now (My opinion) especially the cryotic front event, staying on 3000+ just to get the polar glaxion skin and Latron wraith was worth it, Tower 4 is your place if you want to do something hard, atleast 60+ minutes on survival and 30+ defense waves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its a bit odd how I find "difficulty" in this game.

 

I can solo Pluto without really thinking about it, but Eris is too difficult, to the point where I refuse to go there.

 

Operation Cryotic Front was VERY difficult, to the point where I never got the opportunity to complete it and ended up missing out on Latron Wraith.

 

Tower 4 is a breeze, no problem, but Tower 3 is a no-go zone for me, I can't do it. I think the spawning algorithms are slightly different between T3 and T4, which causes more enemies to spawn in T3, making it harder than T4, when T4's "difficulty" is only based around Vor and a slightly raised armour scale for regular mobs.

 

So basically..."Difficulty" is completely ****ed...

 

As for mods, I think because all mods are on a percentile basis, it makes some of them not scale enough, and others scale too much, which breaks the difficulty of the game if people can get it to scale "Well" enough. I think if we had some percentile basis mods, and some mods that scaled via other mathematics, it would work a bit better.

 

Exactly

 

Dificulty scales wrong and some maps have compleatly differend sence of levels

 

In some small event missions enemys health does not scale but their damage scales over board.

 

Percent based mods also create bit of an vacuum im damage scaling, weapons without some damage cant get anymore slash or impact since mods are in percents, wich sucks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The games difficulty is perfect as of now (My opinion) especially the cryotic front event, staying on 3000+ just to get the polar glaxion skin and Latron wraith was worth it, Tower 4 is your place if you want to do something hard, atleast 60+ minutes on survival and 30+ defense waves.

 

But would not dificulty slider be perfect in all planets, i meant, i don want to wait 45min to get harder enemys in survival, or want to go to void all the time, do you know how boring it gets to go same title set, over and over again

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why balance mods? Why not balance the enemies properly so they don't become bullet sponges and bazooka holders? I don't think balancing the mods is the way to go.

You mean reducing scaling of enemy dmg to about 1% of what it currently is. Still would create problems with power curve and gear acquisition, leave all grindwalls we currently have and still keep our tactical options to only guns.

 

No thx.

The lower the difference between fresh and maxed weapon the easier it is to balance it properly and you remove grindwalls from your game at the same time and maybe we will finally be able to use our powers, all of them.

 

Someone mentioned difficulty during cryotic front, but was it really difficult?? ive made few runs where i got over 3k cryo and not a single of excavators survived, only way to fail those was to run out of revives but you could workaround this by abusing broken powers.

Edited by Davoodoo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem is our difficulty curve is all messed up.

 

Here's what it should look like: 

science.png

 

And here's what it actually looks like:

PInJGy7.jpg

 

Now, that's obviously not a totally accurate representation, but you get the gist of it. Things are hard at the beginning, then super easy, then hard again at the very end (as OP mentioned).

 

Conclave scaling was a good try at fixing this, but still not quite there. Aside from conclave being totally worthless, early-game bosses should never scale like that.

 

Basically, we need more intelligent ways to adapt the game to how strong the player is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now, that's obviously not a totally accurate representation, but you get the gist of it. Things are hard at the beginning, then super easy, then hard again at the very end (as OP mentioned).

Ofc it isnt, you put "player skill" in there that got really nothing to do with difficulty in warframe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ofc it isnt, you put "player skill" in there that got really nothing to do with difficulty in warframe.

 

lol wrong

 

Watch the way a player who's just started the game handles a level, and the way a veteran player handles a level. Perhaps you're thinking of "skill" as in "it takes great skill to beat DmC on the hardest difficulty", but I'm thinking of a more neutral definition. Perhaps I should have put "player expertise" there instead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But would not dificulty slider be perfect in all planets, i meant, i don want to wait 45min to get harder enemys in survival, or want to go to void all the time, do you know how boring it gets to go same title set, over and over again

Hmm, I was never really bored on going to the same mission again just to test my weapons on high leveled enemies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Stay frosty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

lol wrong

 

Watch the way a player who's just started the game handles a level, and the way a veteran player handles a level. Perhaps you're thinking of "skill" as in "it takes great skill to beat DmC on the hardest difficulty", but I'm thinking of a more neutral definition. Perhaps I should have put "player expertise" there instead.

Ive introduced 2 players with great skill in fps to warframe and 2 players who were rather poor, all 4 had no experience within game, all of them struggled at first and after some time they were all blazing through content.

 

Maybe i would believe that skill matters if i havent played with both very skilled teams and total idiots, i managed to go far beyond reasonable wave/minutes on def or survival and thats content which shouldnt even be completeable.

At the point where skill should matter the most it doesnt matter at all, getting killed is matter of rng and individual skill is meaningless, instead its race of those who can abuse broken mechanics the most.

 

There are very few truly good players in warframe, yet majority cleared whole game or is on bright road to do it if they dont get bored first.

 

Also your graph shows linear growth of enemy power which is untrue, enemies scale geometrically.

Edited by Davoodoo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem is our difficulty curve is all messed up.

 

Here's what it should look like: 

science.png

 

And here's what it actually looks like:

PInJGy7.jpg

 

Now, that's obviously not a totally accurate representation, but you get the gist of it. Things are hard at the beginning, then super easy, then hard again at the very end (as OP mentioned).

 

Conclave scaling was a good try at fixing this, but still not quite there. Aside from conclave being totally worthless, early-game bosses should never scale like that.

 

Basically, we need more intelligent ways to adapt the game to how strong the player is.

 

Exactly how the dificulty is going now.

 

I like to be chalenged with decent enemys (enemys that can kill me if im cocky but they are also enaugh easy to kill [with tacticks])

 

How ever the chalenge is broken at best right now.

 

It would make things better if DE creates dificulty slider (it wont fix everything but some things yes)

 

there are also other things that should be fixed so that "real" skill can take over like:

 

Steath, better enemy ai, real parcour, balanced weapons.

 

(there is propably more)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ive introduced 2 players with great skill in fps to warframe and 2 players who were rather poor, all 4 had no experience within game, all of them struggled at first and after some time they were all blazing through content.

 

Maybe i would believe that skill matters if i havent played with both very skilled teams and total idiots, i managed to go far beyond reasonable wave/minutes on def or survival and thats content which shouldnt even be completeable.

At the point where skill should matter the most it doesnt matter at all, getting killed is matter of rng and individual skill is meaningless, instead its race of those who can abuse broken mechanics the most.

 

There are very few truly good players in warframe, yet majority cleared whole game or is on bright road to do it if they dont get bored first.

 

Also your graph shows linear growth of enemy power which is untrue, enemies scale geometrically.

 

Okay, you're clearly not understanding what I'm trying to say -__-

 

Those graphs are not exact representations. They're general representations, mainly based off player perception of difficulty vs. skill. Google "difficulty curve" if you'd like to know more.

 

We are talking about two different definitions of skill. As I mentioned, I am not talking about skill as in "this game requires no skill to play". I am talking about skill as in "you learn these skills as you play". Player skill is in reference to how competent the player is at the game. A player who has just started the game is unskilled because they do not know what to do. A player who has played for 500 hours could be said to have more skill, because they know how to position themselves in a tile while fighting, or mod their guns for maximum effect.

 

Your story corroborates the problem with the difficulty curve I presented. Players struggle a little bit at the beginning, then are able to easily complete most mid-game content, then come to a point late in the game where things are suddenly too difficult. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, you're clearly not understanding what I'm trying to say -__-

 

Those graphs are not exact representations. They're general representations, mainly based off player perception of difficulty vs. skill. Google "difficulty curve" if you'd like to know more.

 

We are talking about two different definitions of skill. As I mentioned, I am not talking about skill as in "this game requires no skill to play". I am talking about skill as in "you learn these skills as you play". Player skill is in reference to how competent the player is at the game. A player who has just started the game is unskilled because they do not know what to do. A player who has played for 500 hours could be said to have more skill, because they know how to position themselves in a tile while fighting, or mod their guns for maximum effect.

 

Your story corroborates the problem with the difficulty curve I presented. Players struggle a little bit at the beginning, then are able to easily complete most mid-game content, then come to a point late in the game where things are suddenly too difficult. 

You are not understanding, skill is meaningless, what your graph represents is gear prorgression.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are not understanding, skill is meaningless, what your graph represents is gear prorgression.

 

Also wrong.

 

You are still misunderstanding how I'm using the word skill here. I can't really think of any other ways to explain it though, so whatever.

Edited by vaugahn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are not understanding, skill is meaningless, what your graph represents is gear prorgression.

 

Also wrong.

 

You are still misunderstanding how I'm using the word skill here. I can't really think of any other ways to explain it though, so whatever.

 

 

this reminds me when i talked about weapon balance... (misunderstanding)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was Rank 17 and started a new account, which is ATM rank 3.

 

I constantly perform better and kills more than MR 5 or 6.

 

What to explain that but skill? Warframe has skill, though little.

 

it would be nice if the parcour and stealth (and 100 other things) would be reworked so that we could get even more skill to the game (and smarter enemys or atleast in the same level as we are)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Smarter enemies won't mean anything if people are still one-shotting them.  The problem here is it's not so simple as just raising HP and damage values, clearly people hate that.  Well, more specifically ridiculous armor scaling as no one's complaining about corrupted fusion MOAs or those useless room decorations (corrupted crewman.)

 

The real problem isn't enemy scaling OR enemy intelligence OR player power creep, it's the player mindset to jam every conceivable damage increase into "the best" weapon they have/the community cries foul over and then complain when nothing is difficult.  A difficulty slider on planets would help somewhat... mostly just people like me that already equip a dragon key JUST for that challenge.  For everyone else, they're in it for the rewards, which is why survival and defense are "popular."  If people really wanted a challenge, they might consider removing split chamber from their weapon and any form of defense mod (steel fiber, vigor, vitality, redirection.) 

 

When things are deadly enough that One can't just stand around in the open and gun them all down one bullet each at 600RPM, the game actually gets challenging.  We ALL have the capability to find that challenge in many places in the solar system by way of the mod system itself.  The problem is that people don't see the mod system that way.  They see "useful," "useless," and "mandatory" mods, and don't even think about the consequences of how they mod their stuff except regarding the faction they're planning on engaging.  For what it's worth, the void is just there, it isn't anything to balance the game around.  People run it for their bling, and then what?

 

Further, notice how nearly every new weapon concept presented by a player is intended to rival the Boltor Prime?  It's all about simply going further in the void.  At some point, challenge isn't what people seek, just more goodies for the entrance fee, or bragging rights over others ("Well, I made it to wave XYZ!")

 

One is either playing because they genuinely enjoy Warframe for what it is, or they'll be walking away once they have everything, or hit their metaphorical wall (be that RNG or difficulty or both,) keeping them from having everything.

 

Frankly, the only thing I can get behind is a difficulty slider that adjust enemy levels or quantities, because right now I can't equip multiple dragon keys to accurately mimic the effect of Earth Grineer being level 25-30.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Smarter enemies won't mean anything if people are still one-shotting them.  The problem here is it's not so simple as just raising HP and damage values, clearly people hate that.  Well, more specifically ridiculous armor scaling as no one's complaining about corrupted fusion MOAs or those useless room decorations (corrupted crewman.)

 

The real problem isn't enemy scaling OR enemy intelligence OR player power creep, it's the player mindset to jam every conceivable damage increase into "the best" weapon they have/the community cries foul over and then complain when nothing is difficult.  A difficulty slider on planets would help somewhat... mostly just people like me that already equip a dragon key JUST for that challenge.  For everyone else, they're in it for the rewards, which is why survival and defense are "popular."  If people really wanted a challenge, they might consider removing split chamber from their weapon and any form of defense mod (steel fiber, vigor, vitality, redirection.) 

 

When things are deadly enough that One can't just stand around in the open and gun them all down one bullet each at 600RPM, the game actually gets challenging.  We ALL have the capability to find that challenge in many places in the solar system by way of the mod system itself.  The problem is that people don't see the mod system that way.  They see "useful," "useless," and "mandatory" mods, and don't even think about the consequences of how they mod their stuff except regarding the faction they're planning on engaging.  For what it's worth, the void is just there, it isn't anything to balance the game around.  People run it for their bling, and then what?

 

Further, notice how nearly every new weapon concept presented by a player is intended to rival the Boltor Prime?  It's all about simply going further in the void.  At some point, challenge isn't what people seek, just more goodies for the entrance fee, or bragging rights over others ("Well, I made it to wave XYZ!")

 

One is either playing because they genuinely enjoy Warframe for what it is, or they'll be walking away once they have everything, or hit their metaphorical wall (be that RNG or difficulty or both,) keeping them from having everything.

 

Frankly, the only thing I can get behind is a difficulty slider that adjust enemy levels or quantities, because right now I can't equip multiple dragon keys to accurately mimic the effect of Earth Grineer being level 25-30.

 

1: yep, the damage we cause is too much for the enemys to handle, in my oppinion all mods should have downsides to counter the infinite scaling (or mods should have pecific numbers that they increase, not % )

 

2: in my oppinion i want enemys that can take me on with full gear. How ever i want them to be balanced in the way that i cant 1 shot them but neither can the enemys. I dont like "fake" dificulty like conclace limits or removing mods. (dificulty slider would give chalenge back in some areas but not in all)

 

3: Mods in my oppinion are generaly balance breaking, they are too vital and most of the mods that dont increase dps or overall damage are useless wich is sad.

 

4: i see that ever player in warframe community is comparing ever weapon to boltor prime. In my oppinion every weapon class should be compared in their own gategory, assault rifle, shotgun, pistol, sniper, missile/grenade laucher. (how ever balance issues hurt this)

 

5: i pretty much have everything i need in the game and i still want more, how ever my play sessions have gone down since i got evething and enemys werent chalenging enaugh. (or accualy anything isnt that chalenging)

 

6: dificulty slider would increase chalenge for the players that want it. how ever game still needs more balancing and fixing and dificulty slider isnt going to cover everything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adding negative effects to existing mods is a no go.  DE is in a position where no one will complain about a buff, but nerfs might turn people off of Warframe.  Also, you see it as "fake difficulty" by removing mods or adhering to conclave limits, I see it as activating a skull or upping the difficulty to legendary.  Seriously, that's all difficulty is in any FPS: tougher enemies, greater damage from enemies, and sometimes, more enemies as well.

 

Also, my shred+speed trigger crit-modless Latron Prime can get me some distance in a T3/T4.  Maybe not AS FAR as an hour or 50+ waves, but then, I'm not interested in that long of a haul, and I'd dare to say the game isn't being built with post wave 15/minute 20 enemies in mind (in other words, level 40 is probably bleeding edge for DE's general balancing point.)  If a player is using the best equipment available with nothing but power mods, that's on them if the game is too easy.  Set it to legendary - the mod and equipment system gives you all the control to do so.

 

Still, mod removal has its limits.  I'd welcome a slider that let me scale between those 1-40 levels (couldn't care less about anything beyond that, but why not?)  on any one planetary node.  The extinguished dragon key doesn't exactly make me easier to kill on Earth, and the decayed dragon key makes setting up just the right amount of damage for low level nodes a pain, because some weapons I may want to play with are just very strong stock compared to others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Smarter enemies won't mean anything if people are still one-shotting them.  The problem here is it's not so simple as just raising HP and damage values, clearly people hate that.  Well, more specifically ridiculous armor scaling as no one's complaining about corrupted fusion MOAs or those useless room decorations (corrupted crewman.)

 

The real problem isn't enemy scaling OR enemy intelligence OR player power creep, it's the player mindset to jam every conceivable damage increase into "the best" weapon they have/the community cries foul over and then complain when nothing is difficult.  A difficulty slider on planets would help somewhat... mostly just people like me that already equip a dragon key JUST for that challenge.  For everyone else, they're in it for the rewards, which is why survival and defense are "popular."  If people really wanted a challenge, they might consider removing split chamber from their weapon and any form of defense mod (steel fiber, vigor, vitality, redirection.) 

Because warframe doles out rewards by efficient farming, not challenge. Not to mention we have random assassin attacks that can wipe out a player who isn't modded for straight damage at all times.

There is no reason fun/engaging content/challenge should have to remain separate from optimal reward gathering, and that is something only doable by DE by creating a solidly built, well designed scaling system.

Yes people can use the mod system and items to create challenge, but they shouldn't have to and the game would be a lot better off if it didn't expect people to rely on it.   

Well, there will be sigils, eventually. And those will help sort of. Although they won't be as effective as simply fixing scaling. 

Edited by LukeAura
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...