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There Is No Good, Or Evil In Warframe


Arlayn
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In Warframe there is no heroes, and villains. No good, or evil.

 

I decided to post a topic to enlighten you of a possibility of what we think we know may not what be what really is. Possibly what we think is may also be what is as well. What if the factions we always believed to be evil were never evil. What if people never truly had a choice? What if no one is free? What if fear truly does dictate the lives of those we kill?

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What if I could convince you Stalker is not inherently evil. Stalker hunts us mainly because we took down the Orokin Empire. He was a Low Guard in that empire. That was his life, his livelihood. He worked hard for that rank. It was an honor to him. Then we came, and destroyed his life. We took it all away. We humiliated him. We erased him. We took it all away. We took away his name. His life. His home. His identity. His friends. His family. Everything... Gone... The bosses we kill are simply minor excuses to give him current reason to pick which tenno he will go after.

 

Think of it this way. If an army suddenly appeared and wiped out your country. Killed everyone who knew you, and destroyed your very identity. Made all your hard work. Jobs. College. Education... All of it meaningless...  Simply took everything away would you sit idle? Would you simply forgive them, and walk away with the ashes of what is left? Or... Would you become a futuristic space ninja like your enemies, and be the Punisher of Warframe?

--

What if I could convince you Grineer(outside of the Queens) are not evil. We know they are clones. We know they are created. Possibly even programed. They have no true free will. They desire the attention of the Queens. They long to impress them. They long for their praise. To feel good about their work. The only time they quit is in death. The Grineer are created desiring to serve the Queens. They come into a scary world with killer robots, zombie infestations, and of course... Tenno. Yet they come flying at us without fear, and unflinching. They are all brainwashed. Possibly even dying happily knowing they died serving their Queens. They think their deaths are not in vain. They think it made a difference. Yet still hundreds of ship generators are destroyed. thousands of Grineer killed. Messages intercepted. Important objectives lost. They simply are not truly free. They are all brainwashed.

 

They think the actions they take are right. They fight for reasons they are forced to believe in, and believe this is what they truly want. Sadly they are beyond help. There is nothing we can do for them, but to do the right thing, and kill them truly freeing them.

--

 

What f I could convince you Corpus are not evil?

 

First lets start with the one man that we all feel 100% is EVIL. Alad V. He took Tenno, and made Zanuka. Then took advantage of Infested. Well did you know most people go into a job field with Good Intentions. Accountants, and most people who manage money do their job with good intentions. Then suddenly a need for money comes along. Pressure is on. Tricks are pulled under the table to give themselves money. Good intentions go awry. Alad V. is a Victim of such an event. After losing the location of the Grineer on Phobos to the Tenno he grew desperate. He moved on to bio-mechanics. That is when he picked up Zanuka. He badly wanted to bring about the power of the Tenno he wanted to show his work. The Council was going to close funding. He was going to lose it all. So he took a more twisted path one that the Council does not agree with. One thing led to another, and the rest is history. His Good intention of trying to bring technology to the Corpus went awry with his twisted experiments, and desperation.

 

Now lets speak of the Corpus as a whole. What is the Corpus exactly? Multiple corporations brought together into one super Council of corporations of course. They take profit seriously, and religiously, but why? If I remember correctly one of the messages from the Radio Chatter contest.

 

CORPUS PILOT

"What was that? Did you hear that? No? Oh, I’m getting jumpy. Four ships in the last lunar cycle, all gone.

(pause)

You know, he might have been crazy but Alad V dealt with the betrayers head on… not like that coward Frohd… wait, what do you mean I’m on an open channel. Oh for the… (click)"

 

Frohd does not deal with betrayers head on. Who do we know is the big betrayer? Of course it is Darvo. His son. The one he worked so hard to groom into becoming the head of council. Some players have said Frohd would kill his own son, but in one event he even grounded him in a cell. He wanted to keep him there. He even had a argument with his son, and not once did he say anything along the lines of wanting to kill his own son. Think about it. Corpus have kids. They have families. Someone like Frohd loved his son to go as far as sparing his life, but wanting to bring him home, and give him the best he can. Sure he is crushed, but still loves him. Meaning Corpus are not just doing their job for themselves. Some of them are doing it for their families. Because they have to. They need to bring in money for them. Maybe they have medical bills. A sick child. Something they really want to do that is nice for their birthday. Maybe even help give them better education to be better than their parents.

 

If you ever played Metal Gear Rising there was a special scene in that game that pointed out a good example of this.

 

The Corpus crewmen as a whole don't seem as evil anymore now do they? If they still do shame. Sure they are greedy, but take a look around. Those crewmen are taking extremely dangerous jobs. Dealing directly with YOU. They are being paid alot to be in dangerous places risking the chance to be sent right into your bullet storm. If you are greedy usually you don't take a job where you can't enjoy your greed the next day. No these crewmen are desperate. Everything they do is in an act of desperation. Everything is a risk. Unlike the council, and the higher ups who can hide behind all these crewmen, but even then some of the higher ups seem to be just wearing mask. Like I said with Frohd sure Darvo describes him as blood thirsty, and ruthless, but if this was true why didn't he kill Darvo when he had him in his cell? Think about that alittle.

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Now I am sure your asking how do I myself get over the idea of killing them if I don't see them as evil.

Two reasons...

 

One Rules of Nature... Survival of the fittest, or a show of endurance of the superior blade to cut a way to the future.

 

Two because the Solar System needs someone who can make a difference. Unlike those who chose the path of Honor I chose the path of Sacrifice. Even if it means thousands of Grineer, or Corpus will die. Those who cannot fight will be protected. Whether its the still innocent children of the Corpus, or the colonist.

Edited by Arlayn
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in one of the more resent Devstreams, DE actually have a little "cheat sheet" for the moral position of each of the factions the Tenno are the Good guys, the Corpus are the Neutral guys, and the Grineer are the Bad guys. So while your ideas are interesting. the Grineer are in fact the Bad guys, Tenno are the Good guys, and Corpus are a neutral party.

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in one of the more resent Devstreams, DE actually have a little "cheat sheet" for the moral position of each of the factions the Tenno are the Good guys, the Corpus are the Neutral guys, and the Grineer are the Bad guys. So while your ideas are interesting. the Grineer are in fact the Bad guys, Tenno are the Good guys, and Corpus are a neutral party.

but do the Grineer know they are evil? Do they acknowledge it? No... I 100% guarantee you Grineer loyal to the Queens honestly believe they doing the right thing. So while DE can say they are evil all they want. Its a matter of they are brainwashed to be that way. Their perspective says they are good, and possibly some people in the solar system are pro-grineer who knows. So even if they are an empire all about Enslavement. The Orokin Empire may have been the same hence why the Tenno wiped them out. Stalker still sees the Orokin empire as good. So it says alot about ones point of view. The Grineer in their own way, are both good, and evil. Its purely perspective regardless of how DE sets up their moral compass.

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The Grineer empire is xenophobic and oppressive, and they will not hesitate to enslave or murder for their cause. And their cause is to rule.

 

The Corpus, while questionable, show several signs of some very unethical behaviour. Such as, you know, brainwashing humans in indoctrination temples. The way the ships from the infested tilesets are built imply that they might flat out stockpile human beings. All in all, the Corpus are corrupt, and the strong thrive while the weaker work in horrible conditions only to be used as a meatshield against the Tenno.

 

We don't know exactly what happened after the old war. If we take Stalker's story, then it still doesn't justify him basing his existence solely on killing people who can't even remember what they are guilty of, while justifying it to themselves as if they're not doing anything bad at all.

 

The Infested... you can probably see the problem. Their sole purpose is to absorb all life and grow.

 

The Lotus has lead us to fight against these, and only these enemies. She has even asked us to go out of our way to save civilians, should we be willing. Between fighting off people who mean harm, and saving those who are innocent, what exactly could be so bad about her?

 

Biased as it may sound, this is pretty much how it is. We are, after all, meant to be the good guys.

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in one of the more resent Devstreams, DE actually have a little "cheat sheet" for the moral position of each of the factions the Tenno are the Good guys, the Corpus are the Neutral guys, and the Grineer are the Bad guys. So while your ideas are interesting. the Grineer are in fact the Bad guys, Tenno are the Good guys, and Corpus are a neutral party.

 

That was the aesthetic cheat sheet. I assume the "good guy" and "bad guy" notes there were for the design side of things, not their morality alignments. 

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Really, the only faction clearly portrayed as evil are Grineer.

What grineer are is essentially an army of brainwashed clones who aim to murder or enslave everything in solar system. Leaked bits of lore revealed child slavery, courtesy of the infamous Twin Queens.

 

Murdering people for no good reason other than they are not part of your society is evil. Slavery is evil. Child slavery is even more evil. Grineer are a nation-sized equivalent of insane, mass-murdering sociopathic psychopath. Or basically Nazi Germany, with their own Dr. Mengele aka Dr. Tengus.

 

With every other faction it's kinda matter of perspective though. Even infested at it's core are just a force of nature. They are no more evil than black plague or locust.

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That was the aesthetic cheat sheet. I assume the "good guy" and "bad guy" notes there were for the design side of things, not their morality alignments. 

And so you are trying to make some people look like the bad guys yet they arent? you need to read between the lines. 

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The Grineer empire is xenophobic and oppressive, and they will not hesitate to enslave or murder for their cause. And their cause is to rule.

 

The Corpus, while questionable, show several signs of some very unethical behaviour. Such as, you know, brainwashing humans in indoctrination temples. The way the ships from the infested tilesets are built imply that they might flat out stockpile human beings. All in all, the Corpus are corrupt, and the strong thrive while the weaker work in horrible conditions only to be used as a meatshield against the Tenno.

 

We don't know exactly what happened after the old war. If we take Stalker's story, then it still doesn't justify him basing his existence solely on killing people who can't even remember what they are guilty of, while justifying it to themselves as if they're not doing anything bad at all.

 

The Infested... you can probably see the problem. Their sole purpose is to absorb all life and grow.

 

The Lotus has lead us to fight against these, and only these enemies. She has even asked us to go out of our way to save civilians, should we be willing. Between fighting off people who mean harm, and saving those who are innocent, what exactly could be so bad about her?

 

Biased as it may sound, this is pretty much how it is. We are, after all, meant to be the good guys.

The infested are neither good, or evil. That is like saying a shark that kill a surfer is evil. It simply acted out its nature.

 

The Corpus are paid remember. They have no choice. People will go great lengths if needed. Want an example? In the United States of America people in most states are FORCED to join a union just to get a good paying job. That is just one example in real life. Meaning people will get indoctrinated if it means getting paid at the very least. Also Frohd still hasn't killed his son yet... Plus who wouldn't be unethical for the success of their own children? Look at history... Filled with plenty of underhanded tactics. Heck even the Bible has it in the Old Testament.

 

An Empire is an Empire. You only know what is given to you. Look at Vor he longs to be punished. That guy wanted attention from the Queens. All the Grineer want attention they are just abunch of big babies wanting to impress their mothers. Its like a mother secretly being proud their son beat someone up. Except in the Grineer case their Queens are openly proud of it.

 

edit: they are like children. All brainwashed. If anything is evil it would be the Queens, but then again we know nothing of the Queens, or why they are the way they are. Plus Grineer do not consider none clones the same species.

Edited by Arlayn
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I'd kinda liken it more to the warhammer 40k universe .. good and evil are relative, but overall everyone is just trying to survive in a universe that is ultimately collapsing in on itself. The 'prime' era has passed, and now all the survivors have had to become scavengers of the old tehcnology that they bearly understand in order to survive. The Tenno are the same, having to scrounge and cannabilize for the components to build the technology they need to continue. 

You are fighting the bleeding edge of the rival cultures to keep the balance between the two, however far back from these locations are the day to day people who are just doing what they need to do to keep the culture going and keep themselves alive. To them the idea of a Tenno would be no different from a 'Ninja' to us .. something we talk about and imagine but never see. 

The Tenno are actioning the balance. Good and evil are morals standpoints, but what the Tenno do is not aimed as a personal or moral attack but just to keep the sides at some type of equilibrium. 'Why' the Tenno (the Lotus) are doing this though, that's the question I have.

(after a while you wonder if all those Grineer and Corpus really have to die ?)

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Rarely, if ever, are things so black and white, and I'm glad Warframe hasn't outright labelled the factions as such. It encourages us, the players, to think and debate on such things for ourselves.

 

*EDIT* Having said that, the Grineer are often made out to be the most despicable.

Edited by Dualice
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I believe the main reason we call Grineer evil is the Queens. We don't know their true agenda or reasoning similar to we don't know the agenda, and reasoning of the Lotus.

 

Most would call the Lotus evil for having Tenno kill people. I mean we do Extermination missions which is equally as bad as the Queens sending Grineer to kill everything. Not to mention 4 Tenno could amass kills only a Grineer wishes they could do. Its possible we rack up a far greater kill count compared to what an entire Grineer army does.

 

If we knew more of the Queens it would explain more. Its possible the Queens have a legitimate reasoning. For example lets say aliens were going to invade earth and wipe everyone out, and turn the planet into a breeding ground for whales. However if we kill all whales on Earth they will leave us alone. So what will humans do? Of course! Kill all whales. Which is considered disgusting, and brutal in our day, and age. We would be pushing beautiful creatures into extinction for our own survival. The only way to judge Grineer is to judge them directly, and judge the Queens separately for now because we know nothing of her.

Edited by Arlayn
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The only thing I know with certainty is that many of the Tenno want nothing more than to watch the solar system burn.

 

 

Just kill'em all, God'll sort them out.

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Looking at the Corpus Proxies, most of them were made for defensive purposes.

Actually, the Proxies [robots] are all highly inteligent by nature, its just that the corpus handicap's them. Darvo-"Thats a Acaris Device, ive seen it before, we corpus use these devices to keep the robots in line.' Its highly possible that its the same as the neural sentry in orokin towers that mind control all the enemies seen in the void.

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What if I could convince you Stalker is not inherently evil. Stalker hunts us mainly because we took down the Orokin Empire. He was a Low Guard in that empire. That was his life, his livelihood. He worked hard for that rank. It was an honor to him. Then we came, and destroyed his life. We took it all away. We humiliated him. We erased him. We took it all away. We took away his name. His life. His home. His identity. His friends. His family. Everything... Gone... The bosses we kill are simply minor excuses to give him current reason to pick which tenno he will go after.

 

Think of it this way. If an army suddenly appeared and wiped out your country. Killed everyone who knew you, and destroyed your very identity. Made all your hard work. Jobs. College. Education... All of it meaningless...  Simply took everything away would you sit idle? Would you simply forgive them, and walk away with the ashes of what is left? Or... Would you become a futuristic space ninja like your enemies, and be the Punisher of Warframe?

 

We took his job?!

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