There Is No Good, Or Evil In Warframe

[vaugahn]

Grineer are evil, Corpus are neutral, we are good. A bad kind of good, but still good.

 

I'd hardly call tenno "good". At the very least we're weapons pointed in the right direction, but on our own we're no better than the people we're killing. 

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

I'd hardly call tenno "good". At the very least we're weapons pointed in the right direction, but on our own we're no better than the people we're killing. 

I do see myself as more of a mercenary, albeit still willing to commit a genocide if Lotus tells me to >:P

[Sixty5]

No one sees themselves as evil. There is always an underlying justification that they have for their actions.

Insanity can be argued, but again it just changes the nature of the justification.

No dictator ever woke up one morning and decided to commit genocide on a whim, there is always a reason.

Furthermore history is written by the victors, who, as stated, will see themselves as in the right.

There is no true good or evil in either warframe or in the real world, just differing motivations.

You then have to look at the needs of the many vs the needs of the few, and when each outweigh the other.

[Zalgo]

The is no good and bad only perspectives.

[ElHefe]

It all depends on perspective. Some perspectives are different than others, and none are right nor wrong.

 

Indeed there are different perspectives ... but what makes a society is some general agreement on fundamental "truths"

Truths cannot be multivalent - be right and wrong at the same time - and be Aristotlean

 

Conflicts between societies - or within a single one - are based upon disagreements of truth 

Consequently, I submit that there is "right and wrong" in the Warframe universe

The choice to accept "truths" is an individual one

Normally, for collective action there must be some degree of consensus on "truth"

The interesting dynamic in Warframe is that consensus is not required - at least to play the game

Some players accept The Lotus' view of the Tenno as a (necessary) altruistic force for "good"

Some players reject this and see the Tenno as selfish mercenaries

In the end, DE has the game "rigged" to be whatever they see it as since there are no gameplay options ...

You don't have a choice not to "eliminate all targets" - not unless you want to leave that location never unlocked

 

From a broader point of view, it is important to recognize that the perspective of relativism is a very, very recent one in the span of human thought ...

Up until the mid-1800's with the advent of Humanism, there was moral absolutism and the notion of Truth

The irony is that the acceptance of absolute "Truth" was the basis for scientific and technological advancement over the last 20,000 years

Such advancement was essential for the survival and instrumental in its emergence as the dominant species on the planet 

 

The irony of the modern age is that it is no longer the environment which is hostile to life but man itself ...

World hunger, poverty, disease, education, opportunity, resource management, climate change, species extinction, etc etc are problems that don't have "relative" solutions

In the end, I therefore submit that "Truth" does still exist as does "right and wrong"

 

However, there is considerable confusion of moral relativism with tolerance 

Ideally, relativism should promote tolerance

Practically it does not

Edited October 13, 2014 by ElHefe

[ra9una]

Just like the real world ! 

___ ____ ___ Words _____ ___ __ __ mouth. Fill in the blank........gosh, I have way to much time.

[Arlayn]

___ ____ ___ Words _____ ___ __ __ mouth. Fill in the blank........gosh, I have way to much time.

if I were able to fill those blanks it would mean I have way too much time. In which I do, but I could be playing a tablet game in the mean time.

 

 

Indeed there are different perspectives ... but what makes a society is some general agreement on fundamental "truths"

Truths cannot be multivalent - be right and wrong at the same time - and be Aristotlean

 

Conflicts between societies - or within a single one - are based upon disagreements of truth 

Consequently, I submit that there is "right and wrong" in the Warframe universe

The choice to accept "truths" is an individual one

Normally, for collective action there must be some degree of consensus on "truth"

The interesting dynamic in Warframe is that consensus is not required - at least to play the game

Some players accept The Lotus' view of the Tenno as a (necessary) altruistic force for "good"

Some players reject this and see the Tenno as selfish mercenaries

In the end, DE has the game "rigged" to be whatever they see it as since there are no gameplay options ...

You don't have a choice not to "eliminate all targets" - not unless you want to leave that location never unlocked

 

From a broader point of view, it is important to recognize that the perspective of relativism is a very, very recent one in the span of human thought ...

Up until the mid-1800's with the advent of Humanism, there was moral absolutism and the notion of Truth

The irony is that the acceptance of absolute "Truth" was the basis for scientific and technological advancement over the last 20,000 years

Such advancement was essential for the survival and instrumental in its emergence as the dominant species on the planet 

 

The irony of the modern age is that it is no longer the environment which is hostile to life but man itself ...

World hunger, poverty, disease, education, opportunity, resource management, climate change, species extinction, etc etc are problems that don't have "relative" solutions

In the end, I therefore submit that "Truth" does still exist as does "right and wrong"

 

However, there is considerable confusion of moral relativism with tolerance 

Ideally, relativism should promote tolerance

Practically it does not

As for this post. I feel like Snake from Metal Gear Solid just gave me a speech on how things work. Infact I think MGS2 had an almost similar speech at one point in time not from Snake though.

[ElHefe]

As for this post. I feel like Snake from Metal Gear Solid just gave me a speech on how things work. Infact I think MGS2 had an almost similar speech at one point in time not from Snake though.

 

I haven't had the pleasure of playing MGS2, but from what you are imitating I aught to

Still, it is important to recognize what "truth" is can be prioritized and hence can subject to circumstance

The highest "truth" of war - Victory - is not the highest "truth" of peace

 

Edited October 13, 2014 by ElHefe

[SuperTechmarine]

 

Biased as it may sound, this is pretty much how it is. We are, after all, meant to be the good guys.

 

I've got this game right here, named Spec Ops: The Line. I recommend you try it. It will shatter your delusions and piss on the ashes. 

[ElHefe]

The infested are neither good, or evil. That is like saying a shark that kill a surfer is evil. It simply acted out its nature.

 

The Corpus are paid remember. They have no choice. People will go great lengths if needed. Want an example? In the United States of America people in most states are FORCED to join a union just to get a good paying job. That is just one example in real life. Meaning people will get indoctrinated if it means getting paid at the very least. Also Frohd still hasn't killed his son yet... Plus who wouldn't be unethical for the success of their own children? Look at history... Filled with plenty of underhanded tactics. Heck even the Bible has it in the Old Testament.

 

An Empire is an Empire. You only know what is given to you. Look at Vor he longs to be punished. That guy wanted attention from the Queens. All the Grineer want attention they are just abunch of big babies wanting to impress their mothers. Its like a mother secretly being proud their son beat someone up. Except in the Grineer case their Queens are openly proud of it.

 

edit: they are like children. All brainwashed. If anything is evil it would be the Queens, but then again we know nothing of the Queens, or why they are the way they are. Plus Grineer do not consider none clones the same species.

 

Your assertion that the Infested are morally neutral because they are objects of nature does not stand up ...

First, the Infested are not a natural life form - they are artificial constructs

Second, they are artificial constructs based upon humans

Third, they share a very human trait - that of consciousness capable of value based judgment that goes beyond mere survival

Phorid does not act to defend its own kind against the Tenno, rather it invites the Tenno to join the Infested as it is in the best interest of the Tenno to do so

To assume that the Infested will "make up for their losses" should the Tenno join them is reasonable but cannot be substantiated

 

Likewise, your assertion that Corpus have "no choice" because they "are paid" is based upon an extremely skewed view of commerce

Modern economic exchange is typically conducted by mutual consent not de facto slavery ...

True, history is rife with egregious distortions of commerce:  European feudalism, 19th century American "company towns", share cropping, the establishment of a permanent debtor status of "third world" or "emerging markets" through unjust global banking practice

BUT, it wasn't until the advent of a mercantile middle class that the common man was given a opportunity for self-empowerment to rise above fixed social classes based upon family lineage

Your view of the Corpus throws out the Magna Carta, the Enlightenment and rise of the middle class

"Being paid" has nothing to do with "no choice"

It is only by taking the view of the Corpus as being a rigid theocracy can the assertion of "no choice" hold up

 

Similarly, your claim that by being an "empire" the Grineer can utterly eradicate individuality, independence or freedom is overly simplistic

While possible in fiction (e.g. Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World"), it consistently fails miserably in reality

Humans are extremely difficult to control and control perfectly

Manipulated, deceived, even abused - certainly, but rarely indefinitely

Rome of the ceasars had it share of dissidents as did the fascist states of the mid20th century and other monolithic governments and corporations do of the 21st century

Admittedly, conformity is generally an intrinsic trait of humans - it is the basis of basic tribalism - but once again your analysis is stilted by completing ignoring the equally very human trait of rebelliousness

 

Lastly, to reduce the Grineer society to a simple failure of "maternal separation" would be just poor story telling

That subject was definitively dealt with over 2500 years ago and was based upon the bigger philosophical question of Fate vs. Free Will

Vor doesn't have a "Momma complex" - just listen to his defiant tone of voice when he speaks to the Twin Queens

He is frustrated by royal short sightedness but is held hostage to his own sense of honor - a "Life Debt" as he states - not unwavering love and need for approval

 

In conclusion you make a number very valid points about moral ambiguity in the Warframe story so far ...

The point is that they shouldn't be overstated

Edited October 13, 2014 by ElHefe

[Cryless]

Everything is OK :3

[Otaiken]

Tenno are a weapon. Forged and honed for one singular purpose. Is the sword evil or is it the one who wields it? When awakened, Tenno are a blank slate, doing what Lotus tells them. Perhaps in some time they develop their own personality and aims, but they start the same.

 

But Dark Sectors throw some serious wrench into the lore's gears. I can't imagine why Tenno would want to fight between themselves... for anything other than training at least. Militaristic society.. under attack from everywhere, Grineer that want to kill them, Corpus that want to sell them and Infested that want to... well, you know. Societies like that don't generally waste their (presumably limited) numbers on petty conflicts. 

 

Tenno do seem to have (or had) some kind of bushido like code. But it would seem that the absolutely most despicable thing for a Tenno to do would be to kill another Tenno. At least I can't see the babysitter Lotus being very fine with that. Another reason to hate PvP maybe?

 

Tenno remind me of Izrael. They appeared suddenly. Were universally hated by pretty much everyone around them (and attacked). Which led to very strong pre-emptive strikes and skirmishes to assert their place. They are also technologically advanced. Yeah, imagine Izrael except there's no UN to keep them on a leash. Also, they're space ninja wizard pirates.

Edited October 13, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

I've got this game right here, named Spec Ops: The Line. I recommend you try it. It will shatter your delusions and &!$$ on the ashes. 

First time I played that, I was $#!+-shocked by the end, one of the best campaigns I have ever played. Ever.

[(PSN)PoeticProdigal]

There is no true good or evil in either warframe or in the real world, just differing motivations.

 

 

I really want to help my grandmother pay her rent this month.  Otherwise, she will be homeless.  This is my true motivation. 

 

Therefore, I am going to murder a family of six while they sleep and rob them....your family.  Am I evil?  Hey, I've got good intentions.  Helping my Nanna.

 

There are good motivations which are manifested by evil means, and evil motivations manifested by good means.  We are highly complex beings.  Self-deluded rather.

 

Denying the presence of good and evil in this world does nothing to negate each of their presence;  like a man with a nerve disease who cannot feel hot and cold; his inability to feel (or in regards to good and evil - lack or denial of conscience) does not change the fact that they exist.

 

If good and evil did not exist, would it be possible to even discuss these concepts?   Further, if joy did not exist, how would we know and discuss sadness?  If pain did not exist, how would we know and discuss relief?

 

IMO, to say there is no morality, no right or wrong, no good or evil is just man's feeble yet age-old attempt to live a life without accountability.  That and it being evidence of him not ever falling victim to the blackness of evil deeds.

Edited October 13, 2014 by (PS4)PoeticProdigal

[jonnin]

Stalker aside,  the infected horde are evil.  They are not just mindless animals either, as they invade sectors, pilot ships, and phorid at least talks to us.   They seek to kill or infect everyone, and have a goal and a purpose that is purely destructive. 

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

in one of the more resent Devstreams, DE actually have a little "cheat sheet" for the moral position of each of the factions the Tenno are the Good guys, the Corpus are the Neutral guys, and the Grineer are the Bad guys. So while your ideas are interesting. the Grineer are in fact the Bad guys, Tenno are the Good guys, and Corpus are a neutral party.

Let's actually clarify that instead of just scratching the surface.

The Tenno balance the Grineer and Corpus when they show a tad but of power. The Corpus are simply businessmen. The Grineer are trying to, in a sense, take over the solar system.

The overarching theme of Warframe is that there is no good or bad guy. The Grineer see themselves as the good guys. Same as the Tenno. Same as the Corpus. Same as the Infested.

The Tenno have simply developed this sense of justice through the Lotus's propoganda.

[Evanescent]

I do what I have to do.

[SilentMobius]

Let's actually clarify that instead of just scratching the surface.

The Tenno balance the Grineer and Corpus when they show a tad but of power. The Corpus are simply businessmen. The Grineer are trying to, in a sense, take over the solar system.

The overarching theme of Warframe is that there is no good or bad guy. The Grineer see themselves as the good guys. Same as the Tenno. Same as the Corpus. Same as the Infested.

The Tenno have simply developed this sense of justice through the Lotus's propoganda.

 

In a earlier still devstream the question was asked "Are the Tenno actually the good guys?" the response was "yes, don't worry, the Tenno are definitely the good guys"

 

"Balance" is the in-world motivation, the place the Tenno occupy in the _story_ is unequivocally "the good guys"

[TrinityPrime]

The essence of balance is detachement.  To embrace a cause, to grow fond or spiteful, is to lose one's balance. After which, no action can truely be trusted.

 

Our burden is not for the dependent of spirit.

[Shehriazad]

Good or evil exists...but never on a grand scale.


Are some Grineer captains/generals really messed up? Hell yes...but the entirety of Grineer aren't evil. Most of them are simply doing the job they have been created for. (clone army).

Are the infested evil? Hell naw. They simply don't know any better as they've only been biologically programmed to expand as fast as possible.

Corpus? Nuh. Even internally they struggle to find the right path and their goals are all but unified.



Are the Tenno good? Hell naw. Some of us regularly side with the enemy. Others fight their own kind if meaningless battles to control the outbacks of space. A few would be on "righteous conquests"...but how does one define that?.


But every faction has a few characters that can be considered outright evil or good.

Salad V is outright evil. Nothing will stop him from capturing whatever he wants to make some more experiments. He regards life itself as something that does not need any protection. He will disregard his own men if it benefits him.

The Red Veil can be considered good at heart. All they want is basically find a way to just have their peace. They want to undermine the major threats to their solar system and support the only faction that they think is trustworthy enough to help them with this.

The Tenno are somewhat of a mysterium here. We do good, bad and neutral things 24/7 and we communicate with splinter groups or even the main branches of all races/factions and sometimes team up with them or sometimes just slaughter them like a band of maniacs.
The only ones' we don't actually team up with are the Infested...but then again...our connection to them is a little deeper than with the other factions.


So yea...good and bad only exist on small scales in the World of Warcraf....frame.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Shehriazad

[ElHefe]

The essence of balance is detachement.  To embrace a cause, to grow fond or spiteful, is to lose one's balance. After which, no action can truely be trusted.

 

Our burden is not for the dependent of spirit.

 

This is a very interesting approach ... 1+

BUT as with much of Zen thought, what is simple (or seems so) is actually subtle complexity

 

To say that balance requires detachment is both true and false ...

It is true on the level that removing the self from a situation or an action can empower it

However, to focus so intently on the here an now so as to loose the self requires great presence of the self

 

What constitutes wholeness of being and thus wholeness of action is to accept all that is in the Here and Now ...

The self as well as the non-self

Both exist and co-exist

It is when self and non-self recognize and acknowledge the other that both balance and power manifest

 

 

[Arlayn]

Good or evil exists...but never on a grand scale.

.

The Tenno are somewhat of a mysterium here. We do good, bad and neutral things 24/7 and we communicate with splinter groups or even the main branches of all races/factions and sometimes team up with them or sometimes just slaughter them like a band of maniacs.

The only ones' we don't actually team up with are the Infested...but then again...our connection to them is a little deeper than with the other factions.

 

actually... There was that time we took infested toxins, and stuffed it into Fomorian ships... The belief is the ships were destroyed, but sticking infested anything anywhere is just asking for trouble...

[Gemellus]

The teenage levels of angst and nihilism in this thread are absolutely fedorable.

[Arlayn]

The teenage levels of angst and nihilism in this thread are absolutely fedorable.

last time I checked teens were extremist... They either want everyone to die, want everyone to be alone because they can't get a girl friend, want total 100% peace, or whatever extreme ideal that makes no logical sense that some adults continue to hold on to into their adult stage even though life is literally throwing logic right at them, and they refuse to listen instead they sit infront of a tv, and believes everything the news tells them, or act like sophomores, and if you know what sophomore means I want to applaud the time you have taken to learn something valuable.

 

No real adults take the time to think about this stuff. People who have had time to grow up, interact, and learn from the world. Just like in any game, book, movie, tv show. Everything has reason. Everything has purpose. Humanity is incapable of making true good, or true evil. Look at the kids cartoons. Sometimes even the good guys look like bad guys. The same can be said for many books, or anime. Sometimes the badguy has a REALLY good point that they have personally pointed out. I mean look at the Grineer Queens. They have their head on straight. They don't believe in magic, or mysticism. They believe everything is science they havent grasped yet. Hence why Vor ran off, and became a Void AI pawn because his head wasn't on straight, and Alad V. gave himself to the infested because his head was really not on straight he became a victim of greed. He had an addiction. Its also possible he was bullied alot, and Frohd might've put him down alot. He got tired of it, and wanted to seek a new path so he tried fusing Tenno with tech which incurred the wrath of just about everyone in the solar system. He was even more upset when Frohd bashed him further after. It was like he was going through his bully flash backs again. Especially when we beat him up, and he just curled on the ground crying the most pathetic cry imaginable. He was a weakling vying for power, and he would give anything to have it. That is why he is where he is now... He- I mean apart of the Infested...

[Ventura_Highway]

I am a rusher therefore I am definitely evil