(XBOX)Grihaly Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 @ Arlayn ... somehow I have missed the mercy killing choice At least that is a logical stem and shows DE is watching the details but it seems shallow without allowing for some type of interaction with the crewman such as: "I can leave you or end you - your call" Since we don't talk, you kill him or you don't. Your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElHefe Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 @ A Frikn Grizzly ... yes I got that but what I was referring to is that the "silent" stem tree of only the player deciding of what was to be done with the trapped crewman was hardly a real moral test In fact, making the decision FOR the crewman - since he doesn't have a say in it - could be argued to be amoral as it abrogates the autonomy of another competent adult This is exactly like a defunct paradigm in medicine where physicians "played God" by withholding information from their patients and made decisions for them This "paternalistic" approach to medical care has all but vanished as it was not considered "ethical" even though it was often done out of perceived kindness In short, killing the crewman or not introduces no moral dilemma at all ... it is just another check box that can be filled in or left blank No consequences No consequences negates any ethics Even the idea that being morally correct is "doing the right thing even when no one is watching" still has consequences for the person making the choice because they are aware that they are making a choice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Grihaly Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Could you imagine if this game had consequences? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiouHotaru Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Considering in the tutorial the Grineer wiped out a colony just for resisting them? Yeah, the Grineer are evil. They see themselves as rulers and seek to bring the colonies under their iron fist. The Corpus are morally ambiguous because they're just traders and sellers, but they do make a choice to sell to people like the Grineer. Which if you remember, was the whole reason Darvo defected. He hated the fact the Corpus sold to the Grineer, who then used those products to massacre colonies. No offense, but even as "neutral" as the Corpus try to claim (by playing both sides), they're still a darker shade of gray. And the Tenno are still the good guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlayn Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 Considering in the tutorial the Grineer wiped out a colony just for resisting them? Yeah, the Grineer are evil. They see themselves as rulers and seek to bring the colonies under their iron fist. The Corpus are morally ambiguous because they're just traders and sellers, but they do make a choice to sell to people like the Grineer. Which if you remember, was the whole reason Darvo defected. He hated the fact the Corpus sold to the Grineer, who then used those products to massacre colonies. No offense, but even as "neutral" as the Corpus try to claim (by playing both sides), they're still a darker shade of gray. And the Tenno are still the good guys. Extermination is the most questionable mission of them all... Also Lotus doesn't really want us working with Darvo. Waaaay back when we did the mission where Darvo set us up with a fight with Stalker he mentioned he didn't want us telling the Lotus about the job. Obviously Lotus, and Darvo clash. So if Lotus, and Ordis do not trust Darvo, and Darvo doesnt want us telling the Lotus anything, and the Tenno are considered good guys who work for the Lotus, and do everything she tells us to do then that would make Lotus good, but at the same doesn't make Lotus good if Darvo defected from the Corpus, and the Lotus, and Ordis does not trust him, or maybe Darvo is a bad guy? Or maybe Lotus is a bad guy? Maybe we are really badguys. See there is a looping issue between Lotus, Darvo, and Ordis already causing problems with are we good, or bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feallike Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Corpus: Neutral Greneer: Neutral Tenno: Evil Infested: Evil Infested are litterally just monsters, so i guess we can say INFESTED are the evil race. While all the other ones are just their. (neutral races) To be honest i feel Tenno are the evil faction, while Corpus and Greneer are the neutral factions. (If Tenno get personalities i hope they are litterally psych, it wouldn't fit their character to be sane) Edited October 14, 2014 by Feallike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Grihaly Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 The Infested are not evil! They just want to survive....and Assimilate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlayn Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 Corpus: Neutral Greneer: Neutral Tenno: Evil Infested: Evil Infested are litterally just monsters, so i guess we can say INFESTED are the evil race. While all the other ones are just their. (neutral races) To be honest i feel Tenno are the evil faction, while Corpus and Greneer are the neutral factions. (If Tenno get personalities i hope they are litterally psych, it wouldn't fit their character to be sane) There was an event where we choose between honor, or sacrifice. Obviously the Tenno have a sanity, or choices like that would be impossible. Tenno are simply diverse. Not evil, or good. Infested are creatures driven by instinct. Grineer are not 100% neutral, and neither are Corpus. Both factions have morals that bounce back, and forth across the meter. Infact I found it interesting Vor did not want to kill Tenno, but simply wanted them as slaves for his own purposes. Unlike Ruk, and the others Vor genuinely wanted a Tenno for himself. The G3 are always rather interesting, and rather... confusing. As to why they don't simply capture your Tenno is a mystery instead they just stick a tag on you so you kill Corpus. As to who came up with that decision is a mystery. Obviously Grineer can't agree on the same objective just as the Corpus can't so they are both generally confused, and seeking the right path to follow. Life in the real world is alot like that. Everyone is confused, and people disagree with each other even under the same flag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrinityPrime Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 The Good, the Neutral, and the Evil. What do you think about DE implementing a system such as augmenting the focus system idea with affinity based on good, evil, or balance alignments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenousPartyLibrarian Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) What I've gathered from this thread is people going very deep into what is evil or not, something which has no definite answer, and ultimately come to no actual conclusion at all. If we go by traditional and popular definitions of good and bad, then the tenno are good guys, and the other factions are bad guys. If we have to go this deep into analysis, then you'll just find... nothing. You'll find no definite morality in Warframe, but neither is there anywhere else. That's where you'll get. Warframe isn't special in that prospect. Edited October 14, 2014 by RavenousPartyLibrarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)PoeticProdigal Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) What I've gathered from this thread is people going very deep into what is evil or not, something which has no definite answer, and ultimately come to no actual conclusion at all. If we go by traditional and popular definitions of good and bad, then the tenno are good guys, and the other factions are bad guys. If we have to go this deep into analysis, then you'll just find... nothing. You'll find no definite morality in Warframe, but neither is there anywhere else. That's where you'll get. Warframe isn't special in that prospect. Ahhhh. Was wondering when nihilism would make an appearance."If you find it too demanding to believe in something, believe in nothing." Edited October 14, 2014 by (PS4)PoeticProdigal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Grihaly Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 The G3 are always rather interesting, and rather... confusing. As to why they don't simply capture your Tenno is a mystery instead they just stick a tag on you so you kill Corpus. When I get bolted, that makes me kill more Grineer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-skimmer- Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Food for thought: Name one instance where Tenno did something objectively good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sh0ck-Wave Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Been thinking about this one .. I can't call the Grineer evil. They simply want a different outcome to the other cultures. That outcome I imagine is 'peace' by virtue of everything being under their control .. but the main reason I can't call them 'evil' is because for them to be evil you need to compare their actions on something that is defined as 'good'. Are the actions of the Grineer 'evil' compared to the Tenno ? Our missions are Sabotage, Assassinate and Exterminate .. and most of all these seem to be vengeful responses to Grineer or Corpus actions or growth. Righteous vengence ? Sounds like we need to scream 'killing in the name of !!' and queue the music .. I can't hate the Grineer because overall they are working towards a purpose. That purpose may be misguided or corrupted, but it's probably also that purpose that has kept them going for so long. Also the Grineer seem to be the 'equal opportunity employer' between the two, so hey their base values can't be that bad if they don't have gender bias :) The Corpus though I would consider to be worse then Grineer because their intentions are purely for monetary gain. Their war has no means of victory, merely accumulation. They kill for profit. As for he infested though, they are not neutral .. Far from it, the infested take what exists and corrupts it until it is a shadow of itself. It doesn't care what existed before, and that corruption is purely to build an army to continue the devastation and destruction. I doubt the infested are benign, they actively attack others to further the corruption .. and I do not think they are mindless, they have a goal. As for the Tenno .. I think the universe is in a transitional state, and the Tenno are being used by the Lotus to create a stalemate between the greater cultures until another force or culture is ready to make it's appearance. When ever one faction looks to be getting ahead, the Tenno arrive to ensure that stability is maintained. Tenno are the balance, but the balance for what ? A good 'universe' is the base for any great story .. so I'd really like to get some more information on these cultures given the hundreds of hours I've dropped into the game. Not speculation, but 'canon' story to them. Have to admit, sometimes I wonder why I've been sent to kill guys in the missions .. the Lotus seems to be taking out her angst on the common soldier, but it's the common soldier who should be appreciated most by the Tenno. eg. I prefer the Invasion missions where I can fight alongside Grineer or Corpus, and I always try to keep the common grunt guy running along with me alive. He's got laughable hits, shields and firepower compared to me .. but he's in there giving his all and charging into combat against overwhelming odds. You gotta respect that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Grihaly Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 As for the Tenno .. I think the universe is in a transitional state, and the Tenno are being used by the Lotus to create a stalemate between the greater cultures until another force or culture is ready to make it's appearance. When ever one faction looks to be getting ahead, the Tenno arrive to ensure that stability is maintained. Tenno are the balance, but the balance for what ? Sooooo we're the reapers? (Mass Effect) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashSpider Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Could you imagine if this game had consequences? lol You know I'll be honest I would love a moral system in this game, certain quest open for us based on our actions. Closest we got to was the Gradivus Dilemma. Current invasion system doesn't really have much of a consequence, unless you happen to be hunting for Oxium and the Grineer happen to have taken over a well known farm zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Grihaly Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 You know I'll be honest I would love a moral system in this game, certain quest open for us based on our actions. Closest we got to was the Gradivus Dilemma. Current invasion system doesn't really have much of a consequence, unless you happen to be hunting for Oxium and the Grineer happen to have taken over a well known farm zone. I don't what "Gradivus Dilemma" is, only event XBONE has had, is Cryotic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlayn Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 I don't what "Gradivus Dilemma" is, only event XBONE has had, is Cryotic. Gradivus Dilemma was an event where you choose the path of honor, or sacrifice. Save the people of Mars, but lose a few Tenno to Alad V. OR save the Tenno, but Grineer take Mars, and enslaves everyone... So you do the honorable thing(cough Prideful, and selfish cough) help the grineer take Mars, and save your fellow Tenno, or take the path of Sacrifice. Sacrifice the few Tenno to save the many on Mars.(Only path of Sacrifice can use the epic Star Trek line"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlayn Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 You know I'll be honest I would love a moral system in this game, certain quest open for us based on our actions. Closest we got to was the Gradivus Dilemma. Current invasion system doesn't really have much of a consequence, unless you happen to be hunting for Oxium and the Grineer happen to have taken over a well known farm zone. I would love to see a system like this. I am hoping proxy wars adds a Consequences system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brimir Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) Infested? Evil? Don't make me laugh! They're no more evil than your everyday cold, or cancer. Elaborating on this train of thought, you could also argue that the Grineer aren't evil - they have no concept of good or evil; they are genetically programmed at "birth" to carry out the advancement of the Grineer "race" at any cost. Bringing up Godwin's Law, real-life Nazis were human beings capable of doing either good or evil and they selected to do evil. The Grineer on the other hand would be Nazis programmed/forced to be Nazis - and would that make them truly evil, or victims as well? EDIT: Your average Corpus Crewman is also apparently doped upon on a mix of religion and capitalism, with some "indoctrination"(brainwashing) added on for good measure so I can't really say that individual Corpus are evil either. However, the Executive Board Members seem to more or less have freewill and choose to do evil in the name of profit, so... Corpus leaders=Evil Corpus rank and file=Not evil. Edited October 15, 2014 by Brimir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sh0ck-Wave Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 Corpus leaders=Evil Corpus rank and file=Not evil. Think you hit the nail on the head here Brimir .. I hate it when the soldiers take the wrap for their superiors awful decisions. It's one of the things that gets me in Warframe .. the guys we (ie. the Tenno) are exterminating are not the problem, it's the people leading them that are. The soldiers are simply doing their duty, just like we are. Hence why I do not think the Tenno are 'good'. We exterminate just like the Grineer. We accumulate, strip and sell resources for our own goals just like the Corpus. But hey, queue the Hell March ( ) .. lock and load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlayn Posted October 15, 2014 Author Share Posted October 15, 2014 (edited) Think you hit the nail on the head here Brimir .. I hate it when the soldiers take the wrap for their superiors awful decisions. It's one of the things that gets me in Warframe .. the guys we (ie. the Tenno) are exterminating are not the problem, it's the people leading them that are. The soldiers are simply doing their duty, just like we are. Hence why I do not think the Tenno are 'good'. We exterminate just like the Grineer. We accumulate, strip and sell resources for our own goals just like the Corpus. But hey, queue the Hell March ( ) .. lock and load. Except Frohd Bek. He may be ruthless, but he did what he did to give his son the world, or solar system... However his son still said no because of his morals. Frohd Bek is ruthless, and blood thirsty yes, but he still hasnt killed his own son. I think his goals arent truly evil. Just intentions for someone he never took the time to understand. So in a way yes Frohd is a bad father, but a father that wanted to give his son everything maybe too eager? Maybe too big of a dreamer? He basically lived in a fantasy world, and his son shattered it. I think Yui hit the nail when it comes to Frohd Bek. However as for the rest of the Board... They might be waiting for the chance to back stab Frohd Bek. Heck they could even be the ones spreading the rumors of Frohd's weakness for not killing his son. Edited October 15, 2014 by Arlayn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Grihaly Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Gradivus Dilemma was an event where you choose the path of honor, or sacrifice. Save the people of Mars, but lose a few Tenno to Alad V. OR save the Tenno, but Grineer take Mars, and enslaves everyone... So you do the honorable thing(cough Prideful, and selfish cough) help the grineer take Mars, and save your fellow Tenno, or take the path of Sacrifice. Sacrifice the few Tenno to save the many on Mars.(Only path of Sacrifice can use the epic Star Trek line"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few") By "people of mars" do you mean civilians? Because if so, more things like that need to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MantisCore Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I just killed thousands of people based on the directions of a voice in my head. We are the good guys, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverlordMcGeek Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I just killed thousands of people based on the directions of a voice in my head. We are the good guys, right? DERebecca a.k.a lotus should respond to this post immediatly! it will make my day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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