Warframe's Monetization And Lack Of Depth: A Challenge To De

[notionphil]

TL;DR - The Challenge: DE, you built this game because you had a dream. Was your dream really to have players running the same trivial missions 100s of times to grind prime parts for weapon reskins with slightly different stats?

 

I suggest that players who share your REAL vision would be willing to open their wallets and support depth in Warframe. I am willing to. Right now. Give us a shot and stop letting short-term revenues (grind etc) dictate which content you release.

 

EDIT - After watching devstream 39, I'm happy to say that DE has spend a large portion of their effort in update 15 adding depth and not just saleable shinys to WF. I'm genuinely impressed, as I've been going on about since my sigls thread...and I hope to see more efforts in this direction. I'm still willing to support further depth, and more focus on depth with my wallet, as well as my time/feedback. Kudos and keep it up DE.

 

 

One of the problems in defining endgame is how accessible Warframe is across the board.

 

Players that are Mastery 4 compared to a player who is Mastery 17 may have different tools at their disposal, but the experience you’ll have entering a Void Defense or even special Event or Alert is[experience] is largely going to be shared.

 

We never want to make a game that punishes you for not sinking X amount of hours into the gameplay, which makes this such a difficult question to answer.

 

 

*from the Devstream 38 Overview

 

 

Woah...just woah...Can we ask why?

 

1) What is the point of having a "largely shared gameplay experience between a new player and a veteran player"?

 

If the "MR 17 player has more effective tools" but he's facing a "shared" experience with a new player, by definition that means the game is just going to get easier and easier the more we play. Not to mention, the new player's experience is going to be overwhelmingly challenging.

 

This is in direct opposition to nearly every other videogame, which progress towards more challenge.

 

Who does it benefit to have a new recruit along side a seasoned vet who doesn't care about that content, because he's run it 1000 times, literally, and is just trying for another dice roll on the RNG? Why not give them both their own appropriate content?

 

2) You call it "punishing a player for not sinking X hours in". Nearly every other online multiplayer game with progression calls it "rewarding a player for sinking X hours in". There is a difference.

 

How does it hurt a new player to have to "unlock" access to more game modes or enemies that are currently too hard for him to overcome? And if not new experiences....what are the "rewards" for veterans? As a long-time vet, I think I know the answer...The reward in Warframe is rarely more challenge or more content. It's just making the same content easier.

 

3) What is the goal of keeping nearly everything accessible from day one? The only reasonable goal would be new player retention and monetization. But is it working, and why/why not?

 

The "keep everything accessible to everyone" motto explains DE's reticence to use MR as a balance factor, or actually release an endgame. They seem to want to ensure that most every experience in Warframe is accessible to every player. I assume, the intent is to give more opportunities to new players, and hopefully improve retention/activity rates.

 

Here's the problem with that logic. New players aren't leaving because there isn't "enough to do". I've brought a few, and known a lot in the past year and a half here.

 

In my experience, they are leaving because there is too much to do, and no clear pathway to do it. Even the best sandbox games (Skyrim, GTA) start you off on a closed path and then give you clear markers towards progression.

 

• Good Sandbox: "Here newbie knight, I'll put these three glowing waypoints on your map, and when you accomplish each mission, you'll get a sword, shield and spell, after that keep looking for glowing points for the main quest, or wander around and build your own legend by visiting the 10 major cities on the map! On your journey, you'll visit distant lands, experience amazing creatures, fight new factions and take on quests...challenges you'll have to gain power to overcome. Good luck!"
  

   

   

• Bad Sandbox: "Here newbie Tenno, go...um...farm or build a weapon, sure...but since there's no balance system, your guess is as good as mine if it will be better or worse than what you have. Maybe spend a few hours farming a frame and get it...or spend a few days farming it and...never get it. Well, at least you can go run voids and farm the primes. Voids? Oh, those are the same missions you're running but with a different background. Some of them are tough but don't worry, once you get Rhino, Boltor prime and a few mods, you are strong enough for anything in the game. You can also run new planets if you can figure the map out... and they are just like the one you are on, but with different backgrounds - sorry, the enemies are the same. Good Luck!"
  
  

   

Anyone who has brought a new player into the game knows that moment when they ask "what's next" and you have to explain..."sorry bro, that's all there is. We just do this over and over to farm more weapons...so that we can farm more weapons in the same levels more easily." Followed by..."oh. that's lame".

 

4) Is Warframe repetitive by design, limitation or by revenue model?

 

One could suggest that this lack of content is related to a lack of resources of DE. However, I think the massive overhauls we've seen to UI, combat as well as new functionality like Kubrows and Archwings (which is being called an entirely new game), illustrates that DE's resources are not the issue - it's a priority choice.

 

DE chooses to make "wide" content instead of "deep" content. They are "working" on new enemies, quests, etc....but what actually gets released is clearly shown by the track record.

 

They choose to prioritize dozens of melee animation stances instead of new enemies. They choose to prioritize new Warframes instead of more power choices for existing Warframes. They choose to prioritize Archwings instead of deeper gunplay, Kubrows instead of quests and new weapons instead of giving old weapons to enemies.

 

What does most of this prioritized content have in common? It's easy to monetize. It's either directly saleable, or adds to RNG which promotes market sales, and it's "flat" (accessible to all players). So, essentially it can all drive revenue.

 

As a founder who still buys plat...I'm happy to support DE's revenues. But I can't and won't spend plat to skip "content"....and that's what most plat is for. So how can DE build depth, if depth doesn't pay?

 

 

A Challenge to DE

 

Front-loading the Warframe experience is not benefiting any player use-case. New players need structure and clear progression...not dozens of nearly-identical roads all meandering down the same path. They need structure, not breadth.

 

Vets need depth and challenge, not increasingly cluttered RNG runs on the same content for yet-another-slightly-different weapon/mod/frame we already have 100 of. We need depth, not breadth.

 

Test depth out. Try us out DE, you might be surprised. Founders supported your potential with money, and I propose that many more are willing to support new depth systems...You don't have to rely on "pay to access content" or "pay to avoid grind". It's time to stop letting short-term revenue goals hamper the potential of Warframe. You built this game because you had a dream. Was your dream really to have players running the same trivial missions 100s of times to grind prime parts for weapon reskins with slightly different stats?

 

I suggest that players who support your vision would be willing to open their wallets and support depth in Warframe. I am willing to. Right now.

 

Not through skipping gameplay and locking depth behind RNG...but instead creating a new "beta system access badge" which enables DE to build each system [Focus/quest/etc], and gives supporters an early access beta. Give out a new forum badge, a new in-game cosmetic relating to the new system and maybe a new weapon skin. Price them reasonably, but still exclusively. $20-$50 per system you want to build, for example.

 

It's time to stop basing gameplay decisions on what grind will produce the best ROI, and let the players who support your vision put their money where their mouths are.

 

Helpful Player Comments from thread

 

 

I for one would like some more access packs like Notion Phil is saying. 

I would pay just to support DE and then hopefully they will feel more secure money wise and then stop churning out the same fresh but ultimately shallow content. 

 

I have bought every prime access at max level. However I never use the weapons, warframe or sentinels that I get. Instead I farm the bits and make a new one then bin the free one I got from prime access. Why? Whats the point of buying the content. Then I have no reason to play tier 4 missions. Why not just buy prime accessories? Because I like to support DE.

 

Personally though I am waiting on December/January. For those who don't know December 2012 -> January 2014 was dark for DE and the fan base went rabid. DE promised us a "Year of endgame". Since then I will say they have released some nice content (Melee system, Dark sectors, Tier 4, Liset, Quest system, Archwing - soonTM) but no real endgame development. 

Everything so far has been design, develop, deliver and drop. Dark sectors is clearly the best example of this. It is almost a workable endgame system. It has a cool game mode, it has intrigue and cool mechanics with rail deployment. However it is completely hollow. There is no overarching reasons to it but that its there. All it gives is credits and resources for your clan. Your clan can save these up and... what? Capture another node. The final part of this "endgame" project is missing completely and it guts the entire project. I never considered it before but I guess there is no monetization possible to be made from dark sectors. 

 

 

I've always found it a bit odd.

I log into Warframe every day and yet I usually can't force myself to play any missions.
And when I do it's usually for the grind.
But if I pay real money I can bypass most of that.

I rarely play some missions because they're fun, it's usually because I've built a new weapon and I want to level it, or I want to grind for some mods.

 

Too much grind, too little fun.

 

... It's also interesting to note how much fun the beginning quest was...
...Really, really interesting...

 

I hope your voice will be heard OP.

 

 

I am willing to vote with my money. 

 

Yes, I do think Warframe is pretty awesome. However, I've actually almost nearly stopped playing Warframe recently; A dual reason of firstly having almost all my time spent elsewhere, and also because with so little time and money, I can't grind for the new gears, and I can't buy the new weapons, even if I wanted to. 

 

Why I would head back to Warframe is simply because I like the game-play. It's never been story-focused or as lore-heavy as other games, but it had something going for it. To add layers of complexity to explore and master is an approach I would gladly fund, even if there were no immediate gains; The fact that it may later come into the game to improve it is certainly attractive enough an idea for me to whip out some cash to support DE. 

 

Sad to say, the grinding and the farming has become rather tedious, and I feel Warframe has lost a certain level of its old-day charms. Seeing the video you posted of the very first Dev Diary, I'm struck by how different the mood is then, compared to now. There still remains a certain heaviness in that game; An unmistakable gravity of each combat encounter, the impact of enemies on your long-term survivability. Now, the enemies are pouring in, endlessly, wave after wave, and we reduce them to ash without fail. 

 

It's no longer dark, and brooding, and fierce. It's become almost... anime-like. A certain level of over-kill and cartoon-ish flair. But perhaps it's just the nostalgia talking. 

 

At any rate, I did something I never thought I'd do for a free-to-play game with a fair business model: I coughed up cash. A lot of it. And I'm a broke university student with no part-time job. I save by skipping meals and eating bread and peanut butter. That's how I bought my first Founder's, you know? And I did it again, for my brother. And for Loki's Prime Access. 

 

All this, because I trusted in the vision DE had for Warframe. Perhaps I still do have that hope, and it's because of this, I still wouldn't mind another round of bread and peanut butter. Warframe has the potential to be something. It already shows signs of it. The teething of great features, but sadly, never truly outgrowing its baby steps; its spark, its potential, woefully cut short to explore the next glittering horizon, while the current mound yet holds greater treasure yet unexploited.

 

Notion's right, in that the veterans needs more depth. I just recently made Zephyr, a Warframe I've not made despite it being released (probably) last year, because Oxium was a drag to hunt. And now, having spent almost all my time working on projects, I come back, look at Warframe, and feel a sensation I never thought I'd have: 

 

Dread.

 

The idea of grinding Zephyr and Tiberon to 30. Grinding the Sheev to 30. Grinding Amprex to 30. Grinding Glaxion to 30. So much to grind, so little time.

 

This is probably not the right place to say this, and perhaps it's a little depressing, but I'm just about spent. The taste is great, but the endless chewing, and chewing, and chewing, just to get to the nice jelly centre, which really only looks and tastes a bit different, is getting too tiresome. 

 

But I still have hope for this game. A glimmer of light, perhaps, one day, able to burn once more into a roaring fire. (Perhaps Warframe would like to share some peanut butter sandwiches with me? It's crunchy.)

 

 

 

If I have to pay for it to be viable for the Devs to actually fix drop tables, fix the mod system, add better and challenging enemies rather than relying on level scaling, build quests, fix melee (Properly), update and polish parkour, make game modes more interesting and less repetitive, and generally just do what needs to be done and ought to have been started a year ago, then I will.

 

[in reply to Notionphil asking if Doc would pay for Early Access to Shape Depth Systems]

 

I said I would kill for [Early Access to Shape Depth Systems], so I'd rather shell out some bucks and avoid jail!

 

Edited October 20, 2014 by notionphil

[hijinks_the_turtle]

Sooo.... TL;DR is DE decided to go for quantity than quality in terms of content?

 

I do see what you mean, and yeah the new player experience is kind of a mess after the prologue.  I mean they were on a nicely built track and after it, they are thrown off it and are basically not told anything on what to do.

Edited October 13, 2014 by hijinks_the_turtle

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

I believe that statement is more referring to "we never want to exclude newer players from things". This doesn't mean older players can't have challenge. An example of this would be the Tactical Alerts. Sure, they couldn't become an extreme test of your ability, but they were a start. Newer players could still access these missions, and older players still found challenge within it.

 

We'll have to see where this experimental feature goes, but for now I am satisfied with the current direction.

[Neocyberman]

Agreed in its entirety. Designing warframe around a single experience shared by all players without challenge created by something other than infinite scaling is wrong. It seeks to serve new players and does a disservice to both new and old players alike.

 

Warframe as it is does not have an endgame, an experience only accessible and playable by those with skill. What it has is infinite upward scaling that is virtually infinite but ultimately limited in the amount of fun and reward that can be extracted from it.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Neocyberman

[vaugahn]

I don't think they mean new players and old players are all in the same level together, but more that the content is accessible and provides varying levels of challenge for both new and old players. 

[taiiat]

mkay. i feel like the only thing i can say is yes.

[taiiat]

and provides varying levels of challenge for both new and old players. 

as long as we spend something like quadruple the time in every Mission, right?

*crying*

 

 

and would be cool if i didn't need to double post. stillll waiting on such a simple feature to be turned on.

Edited October 13, 2014 by taiiat

[notionphil]

I believe that statement is more referring to "we never want to exclude newer players from things". This doesn't mean older players can't have challenge. An example of this would be the Tactical Alerts. Sure, they couldn't become an extreme test of your ability, but they were a start. Newer players could still access these missions, and older players still found challenge within it.

 

We'll have to see where this experimental feature goes, but for now I am satisfied with the current direction.

 

I am a big fan of tactical alerts and actually suggested a similar system almost a year ago.

 

However, a single mission event that occurs once every 'several' weeks is not a sufficient source of challenge for the veterancy of a game; as a gamer we should expect better, especially if we are willing to support with our dollars.

 

Yes, tactical alerts are a "start". Nightmare was a "start".  Vaults were a "start".

 

But those starts never "finished"...they were never fleshed out with the depth to make them an ongoing part of the game..and instead were relegated to a little diversion you do to get a few mods.

 

My point is, we need as much focus on these "starts" for depth as we do on things like archwing. And I for one am willing to support it.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

I am a big fan of tactical alerts and actually suggested a similar system almost a year ago.

 

However, a single mission event that occurs once every 'several' weeks is not a sufficient source of challenge for the veterancy of a game; as a gamer we should expect better, especially if we are willing to support with our dollars.

 

Yes, tactical alerts are a "start". Nightmare was a "start".  Vaults were a "start".

 

But those starts never "finished"...they were never fleshed out with the depth to make them an ongoing part of the game..and instead were relegated to a little diversion you do to get a few mods.

 

My point is, we need as much focus on these "starts" for depth as we do on things like archwing. And I for one am willing to support it.

I see the point you are trying to make, and I would have to agree.

Hopefully (<- it feels like we always say hopefully) Focus is at least some sort of endgame substance.

[notionphil]

I don't think they mean new players and old players are all in the same level together, but more that the content is accessible and provides varying levels of challenge for both new and old players. 

 

Right. And what is the difference?

 

We take the level you've been playing for the last 100h and multiply all enemy stats by 2. Have fun!

 

No thanks, I'd rather have new content. New enemies with new powers. New strategies required to defeat them. New challenges which require the skills i learned in the last 100h to overcome.

 

And I'm not demanding it, or whining about it. I'm saying I am willing to PAY to make it happen.

[Monolake]

[REDACTED]

An excellent topic that will sadly fall on deaf ears.

 

DE are making enough money on the "trickle new paid content while ignoring old broken content" model to not care about fixing the core problems with the game.

[noveltyhero]

I agree I mentioned this in my initial "How to fix U14" and then later on in improving quests and the prologue threads...

The game doesn't hold the players hand, in a very very bad way. When I played on a new account I went in fresh, trying to forget all the things I already knew and what would happen a lot is that the objectives are simply not clear enough. After finishing the prologue the Lotus simply says "It is not the end of it" and stops there, leaving you in the middle of nowhere in a random orbit around a random planet thinking "Hmm ok wtf do I do"....

 

I have high hopes for Archwing, however for me it feels like a deciding point between is it worth it for me to keep on helping DE or should I keep Warframe in my library as a casual game where I can kill 10000s of enemies in a dumb way to kill some time or relax...

[notionphil]

An excellent topic that will sadly fall on deaf ears.

 

DE are making enough money on the "trickle new paid content while ignoring old broken content" model to not care about fixing the core problems with the game.

 

And that is why I am asking them to let us pay. Let depth add to their bottom line.

[notionphil]

I agree I mentioned this in my initial "How to fix U14" and then later on in improving quests and the prologue threads...

The game doesn't hold the players hand, in a very very bad way. When I played on a new account I went in fresh, trying to forget all the things I already knew and what would happen a lot is that the objectives are simply not clear enough. After finishing the prologue the Lotus simply says "It is not the end of it" and stops there, leaving you in the middle of nowhere in a random orbit around a random planet thinking "Hmm ok wtf do I do"....

 

I have high hopes for Archwing, however for me it feels like a deciding point between is it worth it for me to keep on helping DE or should I keep Warframe in my library as a casual game where I can kill 10000s of enemies in a dumb way to kill some time or relax...

 

Noveltyhero...I hope you don't hinge your hopes on WF based on Archwing. I'll bet plat it's going to be an RNG grindfest coupled with a plat sink. Except in space, with wings and an entirely different(WHY?!) gameplay mode.

 

My hopes are on Focus & Sigils, which will hopefully have no plat escape valve. Which as stated in the OP, is why I don't mind paying in advance to test/support those features.

[Neocyberman]

I don't think they mean new players and old players are all in the same level together, but more that the content is accessible and provides varying levels of challenge for both new and old players. 

 

If you mean to say this is their goal going forward sure but it has never been this way. Progression is based on gear stats and mod drops for quite some time and little in terms of experience

 

The varying levels of challenge you speak about occurs only in that the vet player steamrolls everything and the new player brings nothing to the party. The only exception to this is in modes where your effectiveness is based on your teamwork and somewhat less on your stats. And that is excavation and little else.

[Lukap99]

I've always found it a bit odd.

I log into Warframe every day and yet I usually can't force myself to play any missions.
And when I do it's usually for the grind.
But if I pay real money I can bypass most of that.

I rarely play some missions because they're fun, it's usually because I've built a new weapon and I want to level it, or I want to grind for some mods.

 

Too much grind, too little fun.

 

... It's also interesting to note how much fun the beginning quest was...
...Really, really interesting...

 

I hope your voice will be heard OP.

[noveltyhero]

Noveltyhero...I hope you don't hinge your hopes on WF based on Archwing. I'll bet plat it's going to be an RNG grindfest coupled with a plat sink. Except in space, with wings and an entirely different(WHY?!) gameplay mode.

 

My hopes are on Focus & Sigils, which will hopefully have no plat escape valve. Which as stated in the OP, is why I don't mind paying in advance to test/support those features.

Ohh was kind of implying U15, of course I look forward to those but I just have this gut feeling that Focus will be disappointing..

I mean if Sigils are a genuine achievement system with say "Fight Lepanthis the classic way, Excalibur Braton Lato and Skana" then I'd certainly overlook faulty Archwing and whatnot..

 

I should probably be clear, basically I am not willing to spend more time and energy into this game unless I see that potential being grasped. Reason why I have this badge, probably why you have it too. Saw potential and was willing to provide the stepping stone, with no regrets I say this :/

[notionphil]

Reason why I have this badge, probably why you have it too. Saw potential and was willing to provide the stepping stone, with no regrets I say this :/

 

/salute

 

This is why I am writing this post. The potential still exists, if DE can get off of whatever instant gratification track they are on. It's time to either right this ship or get off.

[Neocyberman]

Oh, I hadn't noticed this, why the pay wall for the content you are suggesting?

[Katakuna]

I don't exactly have any hopes of DE changing their strategy after watching them do it over and over again for almost two years, but it would be nice if they did.  

 

Wouldn't feel ashamed to wear this Founders badge, then.

 

Edited October 13, 2014 by Katakuna

[notionphil]

Oh, I hadn't noticed this, why the pay wall for the content you are suggesting?

 

no pay wall for content. Let's use the example of the Focus system.

 

DE wants to work on the Focus system to make a deeper gameplay experience. However, they know they can't monetize Focus system well (bc its not plat/RNG based).

 

So, they create a Focus system beta test. Supporters can pay $20/40/50 to get access to the Focus system dev streams, Focus beta forum and test the Focus system early in game (maybe 3mos before anyone else or more). They will also get a special syndana/cosmetic, and a skin for one of the Focus powers when it comes out live.

 

When it's live, all players will get access to the Focus system.

[Etsoree]

I suggest that players who share your REAL vision would be willing to open their wallets and support depth in Warframe. I am willing to. Right now. Give us a shot and stop letting short-term revenues (grind etc) dictate which content you release.

 

TL;DR

 

We did/do: it's called Founder's.

[Lukap99]

Well, it seems that some previous post was deleted, along with my reply to it.
... Eh, nothing of substantial value was lost...

 

 

Anyhow, last time I visited /v/ (a 4chan board) and asked them what they though of Warframe, they're general opinion was either:
1. Fun gameplay, but too much grind
2. I've left *amount of time* ago, is it still the s%!//y grindfest as it once was?

The grind is part of a bigger problem, it's that there's not much to do besides the grind. No mission to put all that grinding to good use. No gamemode that players will play purely because it's fun.

[The_Hanged_Man]

Oh, I hadn't noticed this, why the pay wall for the content you are suggesting?

Because the OP thinks DE's reason for not producing content is a lack of money.

 

I don't think players should pay money to expect actual depth and story to a game that charges them for shiny bits and purports itself as a F2P game. DE should want story and depth to their game so players continue to play and buy shiny hat bits.