Warframe's Monetization And Lack Of Depth: A Challenge To De

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I'm somewhat wary of having people pay for a "beta within a beta". I'm concerned either people will be upset when they pay for something that's half-finished (even though it would be clearly stated that that's what they're doing, I'm certain people would be upset anyway) or DE would be afraid to show anything that they're not going to put in the game anyway, regardless of criticism.

 

So maybe this idea should be added to something like a new Founders type of deal (permanent Prime access?), where people understand it's only an additional benefit and not the only thing they're paying for. That way people can't complain that they bought it, uninformed, and then didn't like that they were playing concepts that still had lots of issues.

 

This might be ridiculous, but maybe there could be two days a month or so where a small number of new players (MR2-3 and picked at random) would be allowed to access the different beta concepts for low-level items, then asked to comment on the Forums (there could be special threads about these ideas) about them. I suggest this because a lot of new players might not see the same thing an older player sees, and most new players probably wouldn't pay money to see a dream they didn't really have.

[Loswaith]

I'm not sure if Skyrim is really a fair comparison, considering it was in development for almost 5 years, and it came from a much larger studio. If we had played Skyrim when it was around two years old I'm sure it would have been just as incomplete and bug-ridden as Warframe is now.

 

Also, one of the things that made Skyrim cool was the breadth of things there were to do. You could spend hours farming and cooking, or getting married, or dozens of other things that had almost nothing to do with the main game and yet were still there. 

Keep in mind that the first Elder Scrolls (arena), was also released in 1994.  So aspects of Skyrim have roots (the core gameplay style) from 20+ years ago, that has been growing, shrinking and generally improved upon over the years.

[Me.Greedy]

Bottomline is that we need a second solar system...

 

one for noobs, and one for veterans.

[Davoodoo]

Bottomline is that we need a second solar system...

 

one for noobs, and one for veterans.

Planet, moon, asteroid or blackhole or even ship for veterans would be plenty.

 

Just make it for veterans not for everyone and their dog.

gear check, skill check and some actual challenge.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Davoodoo

[AlphaHorseman]

We are still in beta testing. Though I like the idea you give of beta testing these systems with a few players who choose to pay for them becoming beta beta testers, it could work against DE as they'd have a smaller response group to work with. Though this could go either way, as a smaller group is a less diverse response team, it also offers better ways to monitor feedback and construct from that.

 

I do love your ideas, but having it being closed off from all and making a pretty much "closed beta" when we're in open beta sounds more exclusive than I'd hope for. Although, maybe this is something that needs to be done, if we are ever to see more depth come to this game, rather than width. I've played over 1200 hours, and the grind is getting to me. I've burnt out so much that I don't honestly know what to do anymore. All the new events just feel like "hey, here's something you've done over a hundred times, only slightly different".

 

Maybe rather than having it be behind a money wall, we could have it be once a player reaches a certain amount of hours played and not been disruptive or reported, they could be asked to join the systems testing you were offering. That way players who do not have the money, but may have the ideas and expertise that could benefit the game, can still support the game and its development.

[HuzzelMuzzel]

yes, something have to change. op put his finger on the weak spots. i love this game but this meaningless grinding makes me to play less and less

[scope007]

Well Done OP

 

This summerizes all my feelings as a founder. + 1

[Calayne]

I am willing to vote with my money. 

 

Yes, I do think Warframe is pretty awesome. However, I've actually almost nearly stopped playing Warframe recently; A dual reason of firstly having almost all my time spent elsewhere, and also because with so little time and money, I can't grind for the new gears, and I can't buy the new weapons, even if I wanted to. 

 

Why I would head back to Warframe is simply because I like the game-play. It's never been story-focused or as lore-heavy as other games, but it had something going for it. To add layers of complexity to explore and master is an approach I would gladly fund, even if there were no immediate gains; The fact that it may later come into the game to improve it is certainly attractive enough an idea for me to whip out some cash to support DE. 

 

Sad to say, the grinding and the farming has become rather tedious, and I feel Warframe has lost a certain level of its old-day charms. Seeing the video you posted of the very first Dev Diary, I'm struck by how different the mood is then, compared to now. There still remains a certain heaviness in that game; An unmistakable gravity of each combat encounter, the impact of enemies on your long-term survivability. Now, the enemies are pouring in, endlessly, wave after wave, and we reduce them to ash without fail. 

 

It's no longer dark, and brooding, and fierce. It's become almost... anime-like. A certain level of over-kill and cartoon-ish flair. But perhaps it's just the nostalgia talking. 

 

At any rate, I did something I never thought I'd do for a free-to-play game with a fair business model: I coughed up cash. A lot of it. And I'm a broke university student with no part-time job. I save by skipping meals and eating bread and peanut butter. That's how I bought my first Founder's, you know? And I did it again, for my brother. And for Loki's Prime Access. 

 

All this, because I trusted in the vision DE had for Warframe. Perhaps I still do have that hope, and it's because of this, I still wouldn't mind another round of bread and peanut butter. Warframe has the potential to be something. It already shows signs of it. The teething of great features, but sadly, never truly outgrowing its baby steps; its spark, its potential, woefully cut short to explore the next glittering horizon, while the current mound yet holds greater treasure yet unexploited.

 

Notion's right, in that the veterans needs more depth. I just recently made Zephyr, a Warframe I've not made despite it being released (probably) last year, because Oxium was a drag to hunt. And now, having spent almost all my time working on projects, I come back, look at Warframe, and feel a sensation I never thought I'd have: 

 

Dread.

 

The idea of grinding Zephyr and Tiberon to 30. Grinding the Sheev to 30. Grinding Amprex to 30. Grinding Glaxion to 30. So much to grind, so little time.

 

This is probably not the right place to say this, and perhaps it's a little depressing, but I'm just about spent. The taste is great, but the endless chewing, and chewing, and chewing, just to get to the nice jelly centre, which really only looks and tastes a bit different, is getting too tiresome. 

 

But I still have hope for this game. A glimmer of light, perhaps, one day, able to burn once more into a roaring fire. (Perhaps Warframe would like to share some peanut butter sandwiches with me? It's crunchy.)

[notionphil]

We are still in beta testing. Though I like the idea you give of beta testing these systems with a few players who choose to pay for them becoming beta beta testers, it could work against DE as they'd have a smaller response group to work with. Though this could go either way, as a smaller group is a less diverse response team, it also offers better ways to monitor feedback and construct from that.

 

I do love your ideas, but having it being closed off from all and making a pretty much "closed beta" when we're in open beta sounds more exclusive than I'd hope for. Although, maybe this is something that needs to be done, if we are ever to see more depth come to this game, rather than width. I've played over 1200 hours, and the grind is getting to me. I've burnt out so much that I don't honestly know what to do anymore. All the new events just feel like "hey, here's something you've done over a hundred times, only slightly different".

 

Maybe rather than having it be behind a money wall, we could have it be once a player reaches a certain amount of hours played and not been disruptive or reported, they could be asked to join the systems testing you were offering. That way players who do not have the money, but may have the ideas and expertise that could benefit the game, can still support the game and its development.

 

Let's forget the word "beta" for a second, as WF is misusing it and it's confusing everyone here. Just to be 100% clear.....here's what I'm proposing.

 

I'm suggesting that when DE wants to develop out a new big feature that can't be monetized effectively in the game (IE: a feature without plat sinks/RNG grind), they would create a early access "shapers" program for that feature.

 

EX: 

 

Month 0: DE wants to create a player-created quest system! They've already made an very early stage prototype to show us and need funding and feedback to refine it. Every player can see the starting point of the system in a video and page on Warframe.com/earlyaccess.

 

DE announces the "early access shaper" program for the Player Created Quests system, and sells it for $30-$50. If you buy it, you get early access to the system, the forum about that system....as well as a price-appropriate exclusive cosmetics; the badge you can wear now and use in forums, as well a special Player-Created Quest re-skin for something that will eventually be in game.

 

Month 1: 5k or so players supported the system. This $200-250k that was paid in allows DE to have 5 dedicated developers, artists and writers working solely on the Early Access system for the next 4 full months!

 

Month 2: Players are testing and playing with the system, and watching a Early Access livestream here and there. There are bugs, issues etc. But DE continues to take the feedback of the early access players. DE also lets 100 players in who have won a contest/submitted an awesome idea etc etc.

 

Month 3: The system is now fully playable, and spends the next month getting polished by the dedicated team.

 

Month 4: With 4 months of 5 full time developers without other distractions, this system adds tremendous depth and polish to WF.

 

The Player Created Quests system goes LIVE on the servers and the dedicated team spends ALL their time working on bugs and fixes related to that system. Feedback from the entire community reaches the team, but with a team of 5K testers...it was already very good to begin with.

 

Month 5: The dedicated team now spends a month updating the system with feedback and improving it!

 

Month 6: DE announces the "early access shaper" program for the FOCUS system and the cycle starts again!...etc

Edited October 14, 2014 by notionphil

[Lukap99]

-snip-

If you were a writer I would buy your books/10

[Davoodoo]

Let's forget the word "beta" for a second, as WF is misusing it and it's confusing everyone here. Just to be 100% clear.....here's what I'm proposing.

 

I'm suggesting that when DE wants to develop out a new big feature that can't be monetized effectively in the game (IE: a feature without plat sinks/RNG grind), they would create a early access "shapers" program for that feature.

 

EX: 

 

Month 0: DE wants to create a player-created quest system! They've already made an very early stage prototype to show us and need funding and feedback to refine it. Every player can see the starting point of the system in a video and page on Warframe.com/earlyaccess.

 

DE announces the "early access shaper" program for the Player Created Quests system, and sells it for $30-$50. If you buy it, you get early access to the system, the forum about that system....as well as a price-appropriate exclusive cosmetics; the badge you can wear now and use in forums, as well a special Player-Created Quest re-skin for something that will eventually be in game.

 

Month 1: 5k or so players supported the system. This $200-250k that was paid in allows DE to have 5 dedicated developers, artists and writers working solely on the Early Access system for the next 4 full months!

 

Month 2: Players are testing and playing with the system, and watching a Early Access livestream here and there. There are bugs, issues etc. But DE continues to take the feedback of the early access players. DE also lets 100 players in who have won a contest/submitted an awesome idea etc etc.

 

Month 3: The system is now fully playable, and spends the next month getting polished by the dedicated team.

 

Month 4: With 4 months of 5 full time developers without other distractions, this system adds tremendous depth and polish to WF.

 

The Player Created Quests system goes LIVE on the servers and the dedicated team spends ALL their time working on bugs and fixes related to that system. Feedback from the entire community reaches the team, but with a team of 5K testers...it was already very good to begin with.

 

Month 5: The dedicated team now spends a month updating the system with feedback and improving it!

 

Month 6: DE announces the "early access shaper" program for the FOCUS system and the cycle starts again!...etc

5k ppl is pretty large testing group, its nearly 1/3 of currently playing, probably more than design council ever had and surely more than it have now.

 

You cant honestly think that there are 5k ppl who will crowdfund additional content to a game that already makes profit.

[Sylaenius]

5k ppl is pretty large testing group, its nearly 1/3 of currently playing, probably more than design council ever had and surely more than it have now.

 

You cant honestly think that there are 5k ppl who will crowdfund additional content to a game that already makes profit.

 

May I direct you to Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous.

 

I don't get why players and Developers have this dirty feeling associated with crowdfunding, it's an excellent way to increase a resource base for a game and opens the door for many projects and ideas that would otherwise never get implemented due to money and time constraints.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Sylaenius

[Calayne]

5k ppl is pretty large testing group, its nearly 1/3 of currently playing, probably more than design council ever had and surely more than it have now.

 

You cant honestly think that there are 5k ppl who will crowdfund additional content to a game that already makes profit.

 

Well... I would.

 

Notion would.

 

Loz would. 

 

So... at least three. That's $120 or so. 

 

Also, judging simply by the Grandmasters around, there seems to be quite a couple of thousands, though the exact number is unknown to me. I think it's pretty large, though.

 

But I'd also add that the idea is pretty fantastic, and I'd be a staunch supporter for such an idea. A microcosm for a "Kickstarter" in Warframe itself really sounds amazing, because it can overcome whatever limitations DE may be facing, and pretty much guarantees content to be developed in a deeper, more complex way. In some sense, it also helps DE prioritize, based on what players find most crucial for Warframe's improvement. 

 

Also, non-paying players may also be selected, so that's a big help to keep it equal, too. 

 

Oh, and I'm pretty sure Rhino Ninja, Faulty Frame Squad's Xenogelion, Mogamu, PCG's T*ts and many other would chip in. So.... maybe another $160. 

[Liminal]

Great thread.

Yes, we need variety, depth and our progress to matter. Notice I say "matter" instead of "completely invalidating gameplay". Scaling is a big problem there, because it means a lot of the real content is just obliterated with extremely powerful weapons with extremely powerful mods. Personally, I'd rather normalize our power and the enemy's instead of adding more higher level stuff.
The terrible imbalance in WF is a game killer. That, repetitiveness and morale-killing unreliable rewards. At least doing the same thing over and over could be addressed by improving the already existing content:

 

-Enemy diversity. Imagine if fighting the Grineer on Ceres was completely different to fighting them in Saturn ... many different units with different tactics and weapons. It could feel like a different faction altogether. But that wouldn't mean anything if they could all be OHK, so we are back again looking at scaling. If I were DE I'd test the waters by making a scaling-free event in which you, the enemy, your weapons and your mods are lvX, where X=the perfect level for a challenge. This way we could all see how much fun a game mode that's always challenging could be.

 

-Different tilesets with diverging paths would help a lot too. Conflicting objectives with different rewards.

 

-We also need more tiles, or at least make it so that the existing ones can be mirrored, it's extremely boring to see (almost) the same rooms for 2 years.

 

-More boss battles, minibosses, unique missions ... quests that are not just the regular mission types.

 

 

IMO the biggest problem with WF is that the starting point is flawed, and I'm not just talking about balance and damage/resistance mechanics, also about crafting. Sadly I think it's too late to fix that without a lot of people flipping tables and going postal.

 

I'll surely enjoy Archwing, but I'd kill for a "whole game 2.0" with new enemies, tweaked mechanics, worthwhile exploration, toned down damage mods, etc.
I'd be extremely happy if I could replay every single mission without instakilling all opposition, and with every map in each planet being different. Aside from Invasions and some rare Alert, I'm sure I haven't played most maps more than once.

[Sylaenius]

This idea is also great because it gives a voice to a lot of veteran players and the portion of the playerbase who are fed up with the grind and shallow gameplay who also happen to be in the minority and thus have a pretty weak 'political pull' if you will in the democratic atmosphere of the forums.

 

It gives us a chance to finally get the devs to look at a lot of ailing systems and aspects of the game that traditionally are put on a back burner because the uninformed demographic at large only wants more gold trimmed warframes and new Shiny Things™ and are either unaware of, do not understand the workings of, or simply don't much care about the issues endgamers and veterans have staring us in the face.

 

I mean S#&$, look at this feedback forum. The only people who really come here are the veterans (Who haven't just given up and left) and players who have finally become tired of substituting real gameplay and challenge with grinding for new but ultimately pointless weapons and mods.

 

If I have to pay for it to be viable for the Devs to actually fix drop tables, fix the mod system, add better and challenging enemies rather than relying on level scaling, build quests, fix melee (Properly), update and polish parkour, make game modes more interesting and less repetitive, and generally just do what needs to be done and ought to have been started a year ago, then I will.

[notionphil]

5k ppl is pretty large testing group, its nearly 1/3 of currently playing, probably more than design council ever had and surely more than it have now.

 

You cant honestly think that there are 5k ppl who will crowdfund additional content to a game that already makes profit.

 

The "currently playing on steam" numbers tell only one part of the story. I have a background in estimating product engagement & usage; it's part of what I do IRL.

 

By my estimation (I'm happy to share my methodology in PM's ) I believe WF has somewhere between 500k and 750K "active" players, with active defined as consuming/building equipment, using foundry (and presumably running a missions) at least 1x per week. This are based on data DE has released intentionally and unintentionally, no hacks etc.

 

There are probably closer to 25K-50K hardcore actives (aka ppl who play several hours a week).

 

When DE started WF, they had grass roots marketing and a mediocre budget to get the DE word out. Today, they have 9 million email addresses (their published number) and 500K active players, and 50K+ hardcore players. Not to mention a PR company who would definitely write this story every 6 mos and get it carried in major game periodicals.

 

So, yes. I believe DE can easily sell the dream that "YOU CAN SHAPE THE FUTURE OF WARFRAME" to .01% of the active playerbase, for $30-$50.

[notionphil]

Great thread.

Yes, we need variety, depth and our progress to matter. Notice I say "matter" instead of "completely invalidating gameplay". Scaling is a big problem there, because it means a lot of the real content is just obliterated with extremely powerful weapons with extremely powerful mods. Personally, I'd rather normalize our power and the enemy's instead of adding more higher level stuff.

The terrible imbalance in WF is a game killer. That, repetitiveness and morale-killing unreliable rewards. At least doing the same thing over and over could be addressed by improving the already existing content:

 

-Enemy diversity. Imagine if fighting the Grineer on Ceres was completely different to fighting them in Saturn ... many different units with different tactics and weapons. It could feel like a different faction altogether. But that wouldn't mean anything if they could all be OHK, so we are back again looking at scaling. If I were DE I'd test the waters by making a scaling-free event in which you, the enemy, your weapons and your mods are lvX, where X=the perfect level for a challenge. This way we could all see how much fun a game mode that's always challenging could be.

 

-Different tilesets with diverging paths would help a lot too. Conflicting objectives with different rewards.

 

-We also need more tiles, or at least make it so that the existing ones can be mirrored, it's extremely boring to see (almost) the same rooms for 2 years.

 

-More boss battles, minibosses, unique missions ... quests that are not just the regular mission types.

 

 

IMO the biggest problem with WF is that the starting point is flawed, and I'm not just talking about balance and damage/resistance mechanics, also about crafting. Sadly I think it's too late to fix that without a lot of people flipping tables and going postal.

 

I'll surely enjoy Archwing, but I'd kill for a "whole game 2.0" with new enemies, tweaked mechanics, worthwhile exploration, toned down damage mods, etc.

I'd be extremely happy if I could replay every single mission without instakilling all opposition, and with every map in each planet being different. Aside from Invasions and some rare Alert, I'm sure I haven't played most maps more than once.

 

Yes Doc, but would you pay for an Early Access to help "shape" some of those systems?

[Liminal]

Yes Doc, but would you pay for an Early Access to help "shape" some of those systems?

I said I would kill for it, so I'd rather shell out some bucks and avoid jail!

[Davoodoo]

May I direct you to Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous.

 

I don't get why players and Developers have this dirty feeling associated with crowdfunding, it's an excellent way to increase a resource base for a game and opens the door for many projects and ideas that would otherwise never get implemented due to money and time constraints.

These are quite different, these games would never be made if not for crowdfunding.

 

Its ok to make stuff happen, but abusing it to cut costs of development is simply playing dirty.

 

The "currently playing on steam" numbers tell only one part of the story. I have a background in estimating product engagement & usage; it's part of what I do IRL.

 

By my estimation (I'm happy to share my methodology in PM's ) I believe WF has somewhere between 500k and 750K "active" players, with active defined as consuming/building equipment, using foundry (and presumably running a missions) at least 1x per week. This are based on data DE has released intentionally and unintentionally, no hacks etc.

 

There are probably closer to 25K-50K hardcore actives (aka ppl who play several hours a week).

 

When DE started WF, they had grass roots marketing and a mediocre budget to get the DE word out. Today, they have 9 million email addresses (their published number) and 500K active players, and 50K+ hardcore players. Not to mention a PR company who would definitely write this story every 6 mos and get it carried in major game periodicals.

 

So, yes. I believe DE can easily sell the dream that "YOU CAN SHAPE THE FUTURE OF WARFRAME" to .01% of the active playerbase, for $30-$50.

Whether anyone believes this numbers or not.

 

If game have 0.5mil active players and devs are still forced to make only content which they can monetize then what is the cause of it.

 

If each of these 0.5mil paid 5$ a month thats 2.5mil $, if only half of them did that thats still 1.25mil, 1/4th means 0.6mil $, if every active player would put half dollar a month you already have 250k $.

 

You want to tell me that isnt enough to make a new content from time to time which isnt monetized and at the same time keep game running yet 1% are going to fund content for everyone??

 

Either its not problem of money(i dont know inner workings of digital extremes) or microtransactions provide barely any profit to de, neither of these problems can be solved by crowdfunding which will split community in half, create uneccessary tensions and turn down some players(potential customers).

 

If players doesnt want to spend even 5$ on average(thats 3.75 potato/frame slot or color palette) then thats where problem lies, if they do and still only monetized content is being produced then extra 250k wont solve this problem.

 

Not to mention that barely 5k ppl willing to spend 50$ on prime accessories should fund us a new piece of nonmonetized content, yet i dont see it every 3 months.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Sylaenius]

-snip-

 

You make some good points, but then, if there are 5k people dropping 50 bucks on prime access every three months, then why in the hell is the game still so broken? If money really isn't an issue, why hasn't parkour seen an update in over a year, why are mods unbalanced or useless, why is damage 2.0 still mildly crappy, why did melee 2.0 completely fail to address any of the major issues a good number of people were having with, why is content still centered around meaningless and unrewarding grind, why the hell have the drop tables still not been fixed, and why hasn't the fact that enemy scaling as a system completely fails to anything other than make the game horrendously imbalanced and boring/repetitive as sin been addressed?

 

Either;

 

A) DE doesn't have enough money and/or time to fix these things.

 

B) DE is unaware of these issues.

 

C) DE is aware of these issues but player opinion overwhelmingly calls for the trivial additions to the game we regularly receive.

     - This could be due to an uninformed player base at large

     - This could be due to logistical failings of the current feedback and polling system

     - This could be a general lack of care from the majority of players

 

D) DE simply doesn't give a rats furry crack what our opinions or wants are and are happy to stay the course unless a massive player revolt were to surface

 

 

 

Take your pick, but atleast we're trying to do something about it.

 

[Davoodoo]

You make some good points, but then, if there are 5k people dropping 50 bucks on prime access every three months, then why in the hell is the game still so broken? If money really isn't an issue, why hasn't parkour seen an update in over a year, why are mods unbalanced or useless, why is damage 2.0 still mildly crappy, why did melee 2.0 completely fail to address any of the major issues a good number of people were having with, why is content still centered around meaningless and unrewarding grind, why the hell have the drop tables still not been fixed, and why hasn't the fact that enemy scaling as a system completely fails to anything other than make the game horrendously imbalanced and boring/repetitive as sin been addressed?

Either

1)there isnt 5k dropping these every 3 months.

2)they make barely enough to keep game going

2a)either ppl refuse to pay even that 5$ per month which isnt that much really, there are ppl who buy really expensive packs and really throw plat everywhere, so on average 5$ isnt that much to ask for

2b)ppl spend alot but this money is used to pay for new content(a weapon or 2 every 2 weeks) and other costs, which is really strange considering that game doesnt even have dedicated servers which could explain such costs

2c) there arent 500k active accounts

3)money doesnt go to warframe dev team and i wont even guess where it might go.

or

4)few of above combined.

 

2a) and 2c) are most probable considering how eagerly im buying plat now and im not seeing that many players in game.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Davoodoo

[notionphil]

You want to tell me that isnt enough to make a new content from time to time which isnt monetized and at the same time keep game running yet 1% are going to fund content for everyone??

 

What is enough money? Do you think DE is wholly owned by DE_Steve and Scott? lol.

 

Warframe is a product made by Digital Extremes, a software company with nearly 200 employees. Hopefully our fearless leaders Steve and Scott have some decent shares...but the company at large is owned by investors and shareholders.

 

Investors do not care about gameplay depth. Investors care about profit.

 

If the game's profits are stable, or increasing, the Warframe team will face massive backlash if they ruin that. Why do you think Sheldon has been "fixing drop tables" for a year and a half. Hint, he's not fixing them. RNG Grind = $.

 

This is the problem with a F2P game; if we were all paying $5 a month, the Warframe team could focus on making the game awesome and their investors would see the value in that. However, because WF is free...every time Steve or Scott goes to the board at DE and says "I have this awesome new idea", you can be sure someone over there says "OK, so how is it going to make money"?

 

So, I am answering that question. "Well investor, it's going to make money bc people love our game so much, they are willing to pay just to get X great idea in it".

 

Warframe's current monetization strategy is to create RNG grinds which can be alleviated by paying for something. This is directly in opposition to gameplay depth, fun etc. However, it's at least somewhat effective for generating revenue (otherwise DE would have stopped doing it).

 

So yes, there IS enough profit to create depth, however, DE will get a better return on that investment if they take the $200K (randomly chosen #) they just made from Nyx prime access and turn it back into an Archwing plat sink.

 

So, what I'm proposing is that they break the cycle, and raise money IN ADVANCE, for a project that doesn't have to deliver revenue by being a plat sink. So they can stop thinking about what can deliver the best ROI to their investors, and instead what can make the game better.

Edited October 14, 2014 by notionphil

[zoboso]

 

The grind is part of a bigger problem, it's that there's not much to do besides the grind. No mission to put all that grinding to good use. No gamemode that players will play purely because it's fun.

 

Warframe needs to have parts of it to motivate players intrinsically or else endgame will be worthless.

 

Great thread.

Yes, we need variety, depth and our progress to matter. Notice I say "matter" instead of "completely invalidating gameplay". Scaling is a big problem there, because it means a lot of the real content is just obliterated with extremely powerful weapons with extremely powerful mods. Personally, I'd rather normalize our power and the enemy's instead of adding more higher level stuff.
The terrible imbalance in WF is a game killer. That, repetitiveness and morale-killing unreliable rewards. At least doing the same thing over and over could be addressed by improving the already existing content:

 

-Enemy diversity. Imagine if fighting the Grineer on Ceres was completely different to fighting them in Saturn ... many different units with different tactics and weapons. It could feel like a different faction altogether. But that wouldn't mean anything if they could all be OHK, so we are back again looking at scaling. If I were DE I'd test the waters by making a scaling-free event in which you, the enemy, your weapons and your mods are lvX, where X=the perfect level for a challenge. This way we could all see how much fun a game mode that's always challenging could be.

 

-Different tilesets with diverging paths would help a lot too. Conflicting objectives with different rewards.

 

-We also need more tiles, or at least make it so that the existing ones can be mirrored, it's extremely boring to see (almost) the same rooms for 2 years.

 

-More boss battles, minibosses, unique missions ... quests that are not just the regular mission types.

 

 

IMO the biggest problem with WF is that the starting point is flawed, and I'm not just talking about balance and damage/resistance mechanics, also about crafting. Sadly I think it's too late to fix that without a lot of people flipping tables and going postal.

 

I'll surely enjoy Archwing, but I'd kill for a "whole game 2.0" with new enemies, tweaked mechanics, worthwhile exploration, toned down damage mods, etc.
I'd be extremely happy if I could replay every single mission without instakilling all opposition, and with every map in each planet being different. Aside from Invasions and some rare Alert, I'm sure I haven't played most maps more than once.

 

I agree with everything except the DE cannot fix the game from it's flawed implementation. I hope the original idea of this thread changes things.

[Davoodoo]

What is enough money? Do you think DE is wholly owned by DE_Steve and Scott? lol.

 

Warframe is a product made by Digital Extremes, a software company with nearly 200 employees. Hopefully our fearless leaders Steve and Scott have some decent shares...but the company at large is owned by investors and shareholders.

 

Investors do not care about gameplay depth. Investors care about profit.

 

If the game's profits are stable, or increasing, the Warframe team will face massive backlash if they ruin that. Why do you think Sheldon has been "fixing drop tables" for a year and a half. Hint, he's not fixing them. RNG Grind = $.

 

This is the problem with a F2P game; if we were all paying $5 a month, the Warframe team could focus on making the game awesome and their investors would see the value in that. However, because WF is free...every time Steve or Scott goes to the board at DE and says "I have this awesome new idea", you can be sure someone over there says "OK, so how is it going to make money"?

 

So, I am answering that question. "Well investor, it's going to make money bc people love our game so much, they are willing to pay just to get X great idea in it".

 

Warframe's current monetization strategy is to create RNG grinds which can be alleviated by paying for something. This is directly in opposition to gameplay depth, fun etc. However, it's at least somewhat effective for generating revenue (otherwise DE would have stopped doing it).

 

So yes, there IS enough profit to create depth, however, DE will get a better return on that investment if they take the $200K (randomly chosen #) they just made from Nyx prime access and turn it back into an Archwing plat sink.

 

So, what I'm proposing is that they break the cycle, and raise money IN ADVANCE, for a project that doesn't have to deliver revenue by being a plat sink. So they can stop thinking about what can deliver the best ROI to their investors, and instead what can make the game better.

And what stops them from making more rng grinds even while they are getting crowdfunded, you cant provide enough money to replace investors completely, even if we somehow manage to get such amount we arent guaranteed to keep that up, crowdfunding at this point will simply cut development costs, making it better deal for investors, with no real benefits to players.

Crowdfunders arent investors they cant demand anything and arent entitled to anything based on their investment.

 

If it was that easy then you could make games completely free based on kickstarter, but it will never happen, even star citizen got microtransactions.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Davoodoo

[notionphil]

And what stops them from making more rng grinds even while they are getting crowdfunded, you cant provide enough money to replace investors completely, even if we somehow manage to get such amount we arent guaranteed to keep that up, crowdfunding at this point will simply cut development costs, making it better deal for investors, with no real benefits to players.

Crowdfunders arent investors they cant demand anything and arent entitled to anything based on their investment.

 

If it was that easy then you could make games completely free based on kickstarter, but it will never happen, even star citizen got microtransactions.

 

I'm not suggesting that all of WF's development should be funded this way lol. This isn't going to replace investors at large, nor will it replace microtransactions. The game will go on as is. This is a separate development course, for a separate set of features.

 

I'm proposing a small test pilot program to crowdfund non-monetizing initiatives that would add depth to WF. It would simply allow a small group of devs to work on new features which are outside the cycle of build->monetize->build->monetize.

 

So your point is, "what if DE lies to us and make these features packed with RNG grind"? I think it's pretty clear what would happen then, they would lose the faith and goodwill of some of their core players. This isn't a vague kickstarter to "make a game". It would be raising money for a specific feature, one that already has some documentation and design done. It would be pretty clear if they turned that around and tried to milk money out of it on both ends.

 

Could they lie? Sure. But you can get f-d any time you open your wallet. Nyx wraith could come out tomorrow, making your $100 Nyx prime crap. Your exclusive syndana could be inside the "vault" when it re-opens. What's the difference? At least this way you have a shot and a promise.

Edited October 14, 2014 by notionphil