Changes To The Invisibility Mechanics Need To Be Fixed For Melee

[Dragazer]

Honestly I don't mind most of the changes for the invis mechanics. Enemies should be aware of unsilienced weapons and being hit by melee, but the loss of stealth multipliers is just too much and counters the point of melee 2.0. How? Whenever you perform a combo you now must stop your combo and take a few steps back to reapply the multipliers because the combos push you into contact with enemies. Why even bother using combos when you're going to lose your stealth damage multiplier? Not only that but the change is a big middle finger to short range weapons such as daggers. Due to their short range, you are almost always in contact with enemies therefore removing the stealth multiplier, which makes it ironic because daggers are known as stealthy weapons.

tl;dr Keep the stealth multipliers regardless of contact with enemies

Hoping this does get changed, DE promised to tweak these changes in this post:https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/251371-invisibility-smokescreen-not-doing-4x-damage-when-in-physical-contact-with-enemy/?p=2926474

but sadly after 3 months, nothing has been done. 

Edited October 13, 2014 by Dragazer

[BrotherIcarus]

Wait what sense does it make to use combos in stealth? You are meant to be using a stealth attack (You know the little prompt it gives you when behind an enemy) if you are playing stealthy. -irrelevant. 

 

The whole turning invisible to just to get the 4 times multiplier was in the middle of a crowd (Or similar situation) was never its intended purpose and the recent changes reflect that. 

Edited October 13, 2014 by BrotherIcarus

[(PSN)ArjunHarikumar]

i ve noticed that invisibility makes you invisible

[shut]

After months of getting used to the change, I can understand how swinging a giant hammer or battleaxe while rubbing up against an enemy would sort of detract from its "stealth" element from both a realism and gameplay perspective. What I'm shocked at, however, is the fact that literally nothing was done to change how much this reduced the viability of Fists and Daggers (which, as I referenced in that thread, pretty much require the player to be in contact in order to deal damage).

[(PSN)ArjunHarikumar]

why was the 4x times multiplier put into the game in the first place

[shut]

Wait what sense does it make to use combos in stealth? You are meant to be using a stealth attack (You know the little prompt it gives you when behind an enemy) if you are playing stealthy.

 

The whole turning invisible to just to get the 4 times multiplier was in the middle of a crowd (Or similar situation) was never its intended purpose and the recent changes reflect that. 

 

I have no idea where you're getting this information from (whether DE "intended" for players to be able to wreak havoc while invisible or anything like that), considering that this gameplay that you put to be "never Invisibility's intended purpose" has been in the game since Loki's creation (and is even displayed in a trailer) and has been one of the most well-known uses of Invisibility for both players and devs. Frankly, if they didn't want us to wreak havoc with swords while invisible, they wouldn't have given Invisibility a melee multiplier in the first place (let alone buff it from 150% to 400% in Damage 2.0).

 

The change was, as Rebecca said in that thread, to introduce a sort of "fine control" aspect to Invisibility to make gameplay while cloaked more than just a "press W+E to win".

[Dragazer]

Wait what sense does it make to use combos in stealth? You are meant to be using a stealth attack (You know the little prompt it gives you when behind an enemy) if you are playing stealthy.

 

The whole turning invisible to just to get the 4 times multiplier was in the middle of a crowd (Or similar situation) was never its intended purpose and the recent changes reflect that. 

I think you are getting a bit confused here. The prompted stealth attack and the stealth multipliers are different. The prompt doesn't show up even when invis after the enemy is aware of your presence. Also the damage is different. The prompted attack deals finisher and a multiplier depending on weapon type:1200% total melee weapon damage for Daggers, Dual Daggers, Polearms, and Staves, 2400% total melee weapon damage for Hammers and 1600% total melee weapon damage for all other weapon types. While the multiplier I'm talking about doesn't deal finisher damage is 400% regardless of weapon damage, and can still be used even if the enemy is aware of you but you cant have contact with.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Dragazer

[BrotherIcarus]

I have no idea where you're getting this information from (whether DE "intended" for players to be able to wreak havoc while invisible or anything like that), considering that this gameplay that you put to be "never Invisibility's intended purpose" has been in the game since Loki's creation (and is even displayed in a trailer) and has been one of the most well-known uses of Invisibility for both players and devs. Frankly, if they didn't want us to wreak havoc with swords while invisible, they wouldn't have given Invisibility a melee multiplier in the first place (let alone buff it from 150% to 400% in Damage 2.0).

 

The change was, as Rebecca said in that thread, to introduce a sort of "fine control" aspect to Invisibility to make gameplay while cloaked more than just a "press W+E to win".

So you do realise that you wrote a paragraph about why I am wrong and then your last sentence agrees with me?

[Dragazer]

So you do realise that you wrote a paragraph about why I am wrong and then your last sentence agrees with me?

"The whole turning invisible to just to get the 4 times multiplier was in the middle of a crowd (Or similar situation) was never its intended purpose and the recent changes reflect that."

His last sentence was meant for that part of what you said. 

[BrotherIcarus]

I think you are getting a bit confused here. The prompted stealth attack and the stealth multipliers are different. The prompt doesn't show up even when invis after the enemy is aware of your presence. Also the damage is different. The prompted attack deals finisher and a multiplier depending on weapon type:1200% total melee weapon damage for Daggers, Dual Daggers, Polearms, and Staves, 2400% total melee weapon damage for Hammers and 1600% total melee weapon damage for all other weapon types. While the multiplier I'm talking about doesn't deal finisher damage is 400% regardless of weapon damage, and can still be used even if the enemy is aware of you but you cant have contact with.

Ok my bad on that part but like @sortarandom (And myself to some extent) said it was not intended to be a mindless power that gave a huge damage multiplier.

[shut]

So you do realise that you wrote a paragraph about why I am wrong and then your last sentence agrees with me?

 

I didn't agree with you.

 

You're saying that taking advantage of the 4x multiplier in dense crowds was never intended.

I'm saying that it was intended right from the day that Loki was introduced, but the devs decided that it needed a bit more skill behind it to use (since we all know that, prior to the change, casting Invisibility was basically godmode).

 

Your post and my last sentence do little more than "lean in the same direction".

Edited October 13, 2014 by SortaRandom

[taiiat]

hm. i think a simple solution would be to increase the distance you can perform a Stealth Attack from for the shorter Ranged Melee's.

 

that solves the problem entirely.

 

 

oh, we're not talking about Stealth Attacks, just Melee while invisible. say what you mean >.<

for those Multipliers, well, i think Reach is your best friend i guess.

 

making those bonuses always active regardless of your interaction with the Enemies is clearly not what's intended, it appears the intention is to make Stealth a Tactical Advantage with great potential, not just free Damage, but a Tool that can be used to great effect.

[Dragazer]

Ok my bad on that part but like @sortarandom (And myself to some extent) said it was not intended to be a mindless power that gave a huge damage multiplier.

It might have been a bit like you said "mindless" before, being untargetable and dealing high damage, but now with enemies being aware of being hit, keeping the multipliers regardless of contact is good because now they can retaliate to some extent.  

[shut]

oh, we're not talking about Stealth Attacks, just Melee while invisible. say what you mean >.<

for those Multipliers, well, i think Reach is your best friend i guess.

 

The problem with Reach is that it boosts weapons with already-long ranges more than the weapons that actually need a range boost. A dagger with Reach is basically still a dagger with one less mod slot because of how little its range was changed. XD

 

It would be great if an additive component was added to Reach, so daggers and fists could benefit more than other weapon types.

[Dragazer]

The whole turning invisible to just to get the 4 times multiplier was in the middle of a crowd (Or similar situation) was never its intended purpose and the recent changes reflect that. 

Nowhere from DE did they say that was the intended purpose. What we do know for sure is that Ash, Loki, and Excal are melee oriented frames. So what is the point of their skills promoting melee if it doesn't work all the time? 

[Dragazer]

hm. i think a simple solution would be to increase the distance you can perform a Stealth Attack from for the shorter Ranged Melee's.

 

that solves the problem entirely.

 

 

oh, we're not talking about Stealth Attacks, just Melee while invisible. say what you mean >.<

for those Multipliers, well, i think Reach is your best friend i guess.

 

making those bonuses always active regardless of your interaction with the Enemies is clearly not what's intended, it appears the intention is to make Stealth a Tactical Advantage with great potential, not just free Damage, but a Tool that can be used to great effect.

Even then reach is just a band aid solution to the real problem which still wont solve our problem anyways. Even with reach, many combos such as swirling tiger's push you right into the enemies therefore losing the stealth damage.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Dragazer

[vaugahn]

Nowhere from DE did they say that was the intended purpose. What we do know for sure is that Ash, Loki, and Excal are melee oriented frames. 

 

Do we know that? Ash's description says he's steathly and survivable, Loki's description says he's tactical, and Excal's says he's balanced.

 

I don't think Loki should get a melee bonus at all. Not with how long his invis lasts for, and how powerful his other skills are. 

[Dragazer]

Do we know that? Ash's description says he's steathly and survivable, Loki's description says he's tactical, and Excal's says he's balanced.

 

I don't think Loki should get a melee bonus at all. Not with how long his invis lasts for, and how powerful his other skills are. 

Really? Ash's entire kit is designed for melee from the smokescreen stealth damage to teleport's melee finisher prompts and to blade storms damage being boosted by melee combo multipliers. Ash is no doubt intended for melee. Excalibur as well with a strong cc to immobilize enemies and two mobilty skills to get in range for melee. In loki's case his decoy and ST are highly situational leaving his invis and RD the only really good skills and invis is the only skill that does damage for Loki.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Dragazer

[taiiat]

Even then reach is just a band aid solution to the real problem which still wont solve our problem anyways. Even with reach, many combos such as swirling tiger's push you right into the enemies therefore losing the stealth damage.

that's... not really a problem.

 

you aren't being tactically sneaky at all if you're pretending to be a ballet dancer with your Melee. ;)

 

i don't think you should normally expect to get Invisibility Damage Bonuses and hit count Multipliers. the 4x Invisibility Multiplier is very large, larger than the Hit Count Multiplier ever gets (and when someone wants to say i'm wrong, here's the numbers - 3-3.5x is from ~150 to 500, and 500-1020 has no further Bonus).

if you want the 4x, you'll need to pick your strikes, cutting Enemies down with few hits due to the Multiplier.

or you can go in and start brawling, doing a lot, lot, lot more swings to kill the Same Enemies.

 

to me, it's a choice between them, and they don't really mix.

but i wouldn't be against increasing the Range of quite a few Melee's, as it only makes sense for them to have a Range of the end of their blade. when that's still not really the case for quite a few Melee's, while one or two others, like Orthos Prime, can hit enemies far outside of it's blade length.

[Dragazer]

that's... not really a problem.

 

you aren't being tactically sneaky at all if you're pretending to be a ballet dancer with your Melee. ;)

 

i don't think you should normally expect to get Invisibility Damage Bonuses and hit count Multipliers. the 4x Invisibility Multiplier is very large, larger than the Hit Count Multiplier ever gets (and when someone wants to say i'm wrong, here's the numbers - 3-3.5x is from ~150 to 500, and 500-1020 has no further Bonus).

if you want the 4x, you'll need to pick your strikes, cutting Enemies down with few hits due to the Multiplier.

or you can go in and start brawling, doing a lot, lot, lot more swings to kill the Same Enemies.

 

to me, it's a choice between them, and they don't really mix.

but i wouldn't be against increasing the Range of quite a few Melee's, as it only makes sense for them to have a Range of the end of their blade. when that's still not really the case for quite a few Melee's, while one or two others, like Orthos Prime, can hit enemies far outside of it's blade length.

There's no point in being tactically sneaky with the games horrible stealth mechanics. And like I said, Ash's abilities favour going straight in with melee to rack up those multipliers for blade storm. and if i'm playing a frame designed for melee, I would want to actually have an advantage in melee compared to other frames 

Edited October 13, 2014 by Dragazer

[Rekkou]

There is no such thing as "invisibility damage multiplier" what you've got is exploited stealth damage multiplier on a bugged AI's detection. Stealth damage multiplier happens when enemy did not notice you, any warframe can do this on their pre-emptive first strike. Use Glaive throw on unaware enemy and you can easily get the 4x damage multiplier with any warframe. Loki or Ash can continually exploited this because the enemy can't ever notice them when they're invisible. That's what is fixed with the last enemy AI improvement.

 

Ash and Loki can be intended for anything, but enemies being chopped to death without noticing anything isn't part of it.

[shut]

There is no such thing as "invisibility damage multiplier" what you've got is exploited stealth damage multiplier on a bugged AI's detection. Stealth damage multiplier happens when enemy did not notice you, any warframe can do this on their pre-emptive first strike. Use Glaive throw on unaware enemy and you can easily get the 4x damage multiplier with any warframe. Loki or Ash can continually exploited this because the enemy can't ever notice them when they're invisible. That's what is fixed with the last enemy AI improvement.

 

Ash and Loki can be intended for anything, but enemies being chopped to death without noticing anything isn't part of it.

 

You make it sound as though Stealth multipliers were designed for all warframes and just happened to bleed over to Loki and Ash. This actually isn't what happened.

 

Back before November 2013, there were no "stealth multipliers" at all. The only boosts to "melee damage while undetected" came directly from Smokescreen and Invisibility-- while the abilities were active, Normal Attacks would have a 150% multiplier and Charge Attacks would have a 200% multiplier.

What Update 11 (the "damage 2.0" update) did was allow all Frames to have access to new 400% Stealth multipliers (which only affect enemies in an unalerted state). The "Invisibility/Smokescreen" multipliers were scrapped and replaced with forced Stealth multipliers (so all melee strikes while cloaked, charged or not, would deal 400% damage regardless of whether the enemy is alerted), and other abilities such as Radial Blind were changed to incorporate forced Stealth multipliers as well.

 

During this time, melee was widely known to be only viable on Ash and Loki; the devs' introduction of universal Stealth Multipliers was done in an effort to make both melee and stealth more universal. It wasn't until Loki became popular post-U11 that the majority of the playerbase, and the devs, realized that Invisibility/Smokescreen was effectively godmode and needed to be toned down a notch.

 

 

 

(Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that Radial Blind part [whether or not it had melee multipliers in damage 1.0], since I didn't use Excalibur at all prior to Update 11.)

Edited October 13, 2014 by SortaRandom

[bejuizb]

why was the 4x times multiplier put into the game in the first place

Because nearly 18 months ago, melee weapons were top tier if they did 200 damage a swing.

[Dragazer]

You make it sound as though Stealth multipliers were designed for all warframes and just happened to bleed over to Loki and Ash. This actually isn't what happened.

 

Back before November 2013, there were no "stealth multipliers" at all. The only boosts to "melee damage while undetected" came directly from Smokescreen and Invisibility-- while the abilities were active, Normal Attacks would have a 150% multiplier and Charge Attacks would have a 200% multiplier.

What Update 11 (the "damage 2.0" update) did was allow all Frames to have access to new 400% Stealth multipliers (which only affect enemies in an unalerted state). The "Invisibility/Smokescreen" multipliers were scrapped and replaced with forced Stealth multipliers (so all melee strikes while cloaked, charged or not, would deal 400% damage regardless of whether the enemy is alerted), and other abilities such as Radial Blind were changed to incorporate forced Stealth multipliers as well.

 

During this time, melee was widely known to be only viable on Ash and Loki; the devs' introduction of universal Stealth Multipliers was done in an effort to make both melee and stealth more universal. It wasn't until Loki became popular post-U11 that the majority of the playerbase, and the devs, realized that Invisibility/Smokescreen was effectively godmode and needed to be toned down a notch.

 

 

 

(Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that Radial Blind part [whether or not it had melee multipliers in damage 1.0], since I didn't use Excalibur at all prior to Update 11.)

Yeah Excal's blind only gave the damage boost after U11 when it counted affected enemies as unaware.

[Rekkou]

You make it sound as though Stealth multipliers were designed for all warframes and just happened to bleed over to Loki and Ash. This actually isn't what happened.

 

Well, it's like that right now. I still stand on my belief that there is no such thing as forced stealth multiplier. What Ash and Loki have are forced undetected state, which indirectly give them constant 4x melee damage. Radial Blind proved this even more, Radial Blind did not have forced stealth multiplier, Radial Blind simple reset the alert state. That's why it also have 4x melee damage on your first melee strike. But once enemy is aware of you, even if they are still blinded, you will lose your 4x melee damage.

 

Again, it's not the stealth multiplier that is gone, but it's the forced undetected state that is gone.

Edited October 14, 2014 by (PS4)IIIDevoidIII
Cleaning