Changes To The Invisibility Mechanics Need To Be Fixed For Melee

[(PSN)ArjunHarikumar]

what im trying to say is that once enemies are alerted there should only be crit no stealth crit aka no 4x multiplier

Edited October 14, 2014 by (PS4)IIIDevoidIII
Cleaning

[Dragazer]

Well, it's like that right now. I still stand on my belief that there is no such thing as forced stealth multiplier. What Ash and Loki have are forced undetected state, which indirectly give them constant 4x melee damage. Radial Blind proved this even more, Radial Blind did not have forced stealth multiplier, Radial Blind simple reset the alert state. That's why it also have 4x melee damage on your first melee strike. But once enemy is aware of you, even if they are still blinded, you will lose your 4x melee damage.

 

Again, it's not the stealth multiplier that is gone, but it's the forced undetected state that is gone.

 

Said by the guy who started insulting in the first place.

Yeah I realized that after the changes, but what I'm proposing is that we keep the stealth damage multipliers separate from undetected state like we did before pre u11 so that enemies don't stand their like fools while we slash away and we still keep the stealth damage.   

[(PSN)ArjunHarikumar]

2x damage multiplier seems fair instead of 4x

[shut]

Well, it's like that right now. I still stand on my belief that there is no such thing as forced stealth multiplier. What Ash and Loki have are forced undetected state, which indirectly give them constant 4x melee damage. Radial Blind proved this even more, Radial Blind did not have forced stealth multiplier, Radial Blind simple reset the alert state. That's why it also have 4x melee damage on your first melee strike. But once enemy is aware of you, even if they are still blinded, you will lose your 4x melee damage.

 

Again, it's not the stealth multiplier that is gone, but it's the forced undetected state that is gone.

 

There is no "forced undetected state"; the multiplier is forced under specific conditions (usually from abilities; for example the forced multipliers on Invis/Blind). This "disable forced stealth multiplier if detected while invisible" is a new mechanic on top of that mechanic; it's basically a "force stealth multipler UNLESS _____" mechanic. It causes Invisibility/Smokescreen and Blind to simulate a forced-undetected state, but enemies aren't programmed to just suddenly become unaware of players the instant they hit 2.

 

If you want to test it out, grab a Shade, let enemies detect you, and then let Ghost cover you up. Sneak up behind an enemy and try to shank them.

There won't be a 4x multiplier, since even though you went invisible and did nothing to allow the enemy to detect you between decloaking and dealing damage (which is a split-second window, during which you are completely out of the enemy's FOV), the game didn't treat your state as "undetected" during any of that time (unless the alarm was somehow not sounded, which would allow the enemy's alerted state to slowly wear off). Had Ghost lasted until actually dealing damage, rather than beginning the swing, there likely would have been a multiplier due to your Cloaked state.

A simpler test is to cast Invisibility and attack an enemy from behind while the alarm is sounded. You'll do the full 400% damage, but you won't get a prompt for executing a stealth finisher. This shows that the multiplier is indeed forced, since the only time the Stealth multiplier is possible without certain abilities is when enemies are in a state that would allow stealth finishers to be executed.

 

The only time anything close to a "forced undetected state" comes into play is when you cast Bastille or Shock or something on unalerted enemies, which prevents them from changing their alertness state while they're under the ability's effect. (Unless this was changed in the same update that contact disabled the cloaked multiplier; I haven't played Vauban in a while.)

Edited October 14, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Dragazer]

TBH though I think DE just didn't have the time to go back and fix up the changes. DERebecca herself said in the link I had on my op that some of the changes were unintended and were going to be looked at. You can see your self when you go invis and proc a bleed or toxin effect on enemies. They follow you around even cloaked while under those status effects showing the changes needed polishing.

[Azawarau]

Its totally OP anyways

 

4x dmg and nothing attacks you?

[Rekkou]

"snip"

 

I have to revise my wording a bit. I generalize it as unalerted, but the correct term i should use is "unaware". Alerted is a state where enemy are in combat state. While unaware is when enemy did not notice or aware of you, this can happens even in alerted state. Stealth attack happens when enemies are unalerted, while 4x melee damage multiplier will always happens as long enemies are unaware of you.

 

Here's a pic as proof, as you can see i still get 4x damage multiplier disregard whether i use invisible, shade or completely visible. This is because the 4x melee damage multiplier is caused by unaware enemy, not because of abilities. You're right that enemies aren't programmed to be unaware of invisible Loki/Ash. Because it's the lack of programming that made them constantly unaware of invisible Loki/Ash, hence the forced undetected state i mentioned. Recent fix did not change the abilities or how the 4x melee damage works, it simply changes how enemy detects you.

 

 

And if you are wondering why Stealth attack didn't deal the same damage as 4x multiplied damage, it's because stealth attack has its own damage. I only did 6000 stealth attack damage and around 2400 normal damage.

[Dragazer]

Its totally OP anyways

4x dmg and nothing attacks you?

You are wrong on that, enemies can track your last known location and throw grenades after hitting them and you still get damaged by AOE such as napalms, bombards, and toxic ancients. Edited October 14, 2014 by Dragazer

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Thread cleaned of rude and irrelevant replies.

[Suthurn]

i dont think invisibility needs a huge damage multiplier to be a strong and relevant ability.

 

i can do nightmare mode capture missions in about 3 minutes with loki and sell those mods for 5-10 plat each. i can run around going full melee with unranked weapons doing almost no damage on ceres or pluto and never worry about dying. so on and so on.

 

invisibility basically breaks the game in several areas that are supposed to be challenging.

 

it doesnt need a ridiculous damage multiplier too. 

[(PSN)Veg1ta]

Dont understand why melee needs any kind of nerf what so ever, in fact melee still needs buffs, even ash with 4x multiplyer struggles with heavies around the lv60 mark, while a boltor p still breezes through, DE listening to the wrong ppl.

[Dragazer]

Dont understand why melee needs any kind of nerf what so ever, in fact melee still needs buffs, even ash with 4x multiplyer struggles with heavies around the lv60 mark, while a boltor p still breezes through, DE listening to the wrong ppl.

Yeah even with a constant 4x multiplier, guns still outdamage melee by a long shot and at a safer distance. So idk why ppl say its op

Edited October 14, 2014 by Dragazer

[Dragazer]

i dont think invisibility needs a huge damage multiplier to be a strong and relevant ability.

 

i can do nightmare mode capture missions in about 3 minutes with loki and sell those mods for 5-10 plat each. i can run around going full melee with unranked weapons doing almost no damage on ceres or pluto and never worry about dying. so on and so on.

 

invisibility basically breaks the game in several areas that are supposed to be challenging.

 

it doesnt need a ridiculous damage multiplier too. 

Of course it will be a breeze you're on the regular star chart missions. Go to high level survival with napalms and bombards and then you'll see a difference even with invis on with all the aoe damage.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Dragazer

[shut]

I have to revise my wording a bit. I generalize it as unalerted, but the correct term i should use is "unaware". Alerted is a state where enemy are in combat state. While unaware is when enemy did not notice or aware of you, this can happens even in alerted state. Stealth attack happens when enemies are unalerted, while 4x melee damage multiplier will always happens as long enemies are unaware of you.

Here's a pic as proof, as you can see i still get 4x damage multiplier disregard whether i use invisible, shade or completely visible. This is because the 4x melee damage multiplier is caused by unaware enemy, not because of abilities. You're right that enemies aren't programmed to be unaware of invisible Loki/Ash. Because it's the lack of programming that made them constantly unaware of invisible Loki/Ash, hence the forced undetected state i mentioned. Recent fix did not change the abilities or how the 4x melee damage works, it simply changes how enemy detects you.

-snip-

And if you are wondering why Stealth attack didn't deal the same damage as 4x multiplied damage, it's because stealth attack has its own damage. I only did 6000 stealth attack damage and around 2400 normal damage.

Huh, I guess I was wrong on the Shade part. I'll have to test it out on my own later; must've changed without me noticing since I've been running Helios for months.

I forgot to mention in my earlier post, another test that the 4x damage while cloaked is a consequence of "straight-up forced Stealth multipliers when not in contact" as opposed to "forced unaware state" is to fire a weapon loudly around an enemy that can't see you. They will detect you-- well enough to shoot at you and land every single bullet, I might add-- but hitting them with a melee weapon while they fire bullet after bullet into your noggin will still result in the full 400% damage, despite them being clearly alerted of your presence and aware of your exact location. Provided that you haven't bumped into them recently, of course.

(And yes, I am well aware of stealth finishers having separate multipliers. I am not talking about stealth finishers.)

Edited October 14, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Azawarau]

You are wrong on that, enemies can track your last known location and throw grenades after hitting them and you still get damaged by AOE such as napalms, bombards, and toxic ancients.

They can track your last location if you arent using asilent weapon

 

AoEs are few and far in between and with you being invisible the chances of something aiming directly at you are kinda

 

You know

 

Low

[Dragazer]

They can track your last location if you arent using asilent weapon

 

AoEs are few and far in between and with you being invisible the chances of something aiming directly at you are kinda

 

You know

 

Low

 I guess the profile icon is just for show. You are wrong on the silent weapon part, even if your weapon is silent, hitting the specific enemy with your gun and not killing it in one shot will alert it of your presence, allowing it to track you. Lets also not forget that even when cloaked, slash and toxic procs which deal DOT also alert enemies of your position. Though then again that's probably an unintended feature. Also I don't think you understand the point of AoEs, they don't directly hit you but deal damage in an area. As I said before in high level Grineer survival and defense, Napalms and bombards spawn quite frequently. Though true they don't aim for you while invis, but they do aim at your team mates that are not cloaked which puts you in danger due to the large AoE of those enemies. Therefore chances of getting hit by AoE is still pretty good while in teams 

Edited October 14, 2014 by Dragazer

[Azawarau]

 I guess the profile icon is just for show. You are wrong on the silent weapon part, even if your weapon is silent, hitting the specific enemy with your gun and not killing it in one shot will alert it of your presence, allowing it to track you. Lets also not forget that even when cloaked, slash and toxic procs which deal DOT also alert enemies of your position. Though then again that's probably an unintended feature. Also I don't think you understand the point of AoEs, they don't directly hit you but deal damage in an area. As I said before in high level Grineer survival and defense, Napalms and bombards spawn quite frequently. Though true they don't aim for you while invis, but they do aim at your team mates that are not cloaked which puts you in danger due to the large AoE of those enemies. Therefore chances of getting hit by AoE is still pretty good while in teams 

I can show video of them coming right up to me and doing

 

Nothing

 

They wont attack

 

You can melee them all you want as well and theyll just sit there and take it

 

Napalm fire is easy to avoid and so are poison auras . Just sit on a box and shoot or stay relatively distance and the infested wont be able to attack half decently

 

Theres no reason to buff invisibility

 

Its already psuedo god mode

 

I love how you specifically point out one unit with a slow firing AoE thats easy to detect and avoid and can only hit you when youre near a teammate that that enemy fired at and you dont move

 

And this is all assuming you havnt already radial disarmed or your team didnt CC the enemy in question

Edited October 14, 2014 by Azawarau

[Dragazer]

I can show video of them coming right up to me and doing

 

Nothing

 

They wont attack

 

You can melee them all you want as well and theyll just sit there and take it

 

Napalm fire is easy to avoid and so are poison auras . Just sit on a box and shoot or stay relatively distance and the infested wont be able to attack half decently

 

Theres no reason to buff invisibility

 

Its already psuedo god mode

 

I love how you specifically point out one unit with a slow firing AoE thats easy to detect and avoid and can only hit you when youre near a teammate that that enemy fired at and you dont move

 

And this is all assuming you havnt already radial disarmed or your team didnt CC the enemy in question

Its not only AoE damage from naplams and bombards, if you ever been to high level void survivals, Eximuses have large AoE attacks and an instant all energy drain when you get close even while invis which you know puts a squishy frame like Loki in danger and also making it risky to get into melee range. Also RD does not remove Eximus abilities.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Dragazer

[Azawarau]

Its not only AoE damage from naplams and bombards, if you ever been to high level void survivals, Eximuses have large AoE attacks and an instant all energy drain when you get close even while invis which you know puts a squishy frame like Loki in danger and also making it risky to get into melee range. Also RD does not remove Eximus abilities.

You mean the flame wall that might break your shields or the knock down one that many heavy units have that both wont activate unless a visible non CCing ally triggers it because the enemy cant sense you?

 

Or the energy drainers that cant see you and can be easily picked out from a  crowd

 

Its not like loki isnt energy efficient and wont likely have near max energy all the time anyways you know

[CeaselessTiger]

Having just fought a bizarre Invasion that decided that near-infinite 35+ leveled Napalms were a good thing, Imma say this.

 

Old Invisibility needs to come back for Loki. Because as it stands, using Quick Thinking is more viable when you're fighting Bombards and Napalms. Oh, sure, they won't land a direct shot, yeah. That doesn't mean a thing with how ABSOLUTELY MASSIVE those AoEs are. 

 

Should I be punished for being a W+F (screw off, I have a weird configuration) Loki Prime? Absolutely!

Should I be punished because I turned invisible and am trying to shoot a Napalm while moving? No! 

 

But maybe I'm just sour 'n drunk from that blasted mission.

 

So many Napalms...why so many Napalms? Why do all of their AoEs have such massive reach? When will the fire stop? Why aren't the Novas moving, daddy?

[fatpig84]

Reach mod seems to work fine for my Orthos P XD

[Azawarau]

Having just fought a bizarre Invasion that decided that near-infinite 35+ leveled Napalms were a good thing, Imma say this.

 

Old Invisibility needs to come back for Loki. Because as it stands, using Quick Thinking is more viable when you're fighting Bombards and Napalms. Oh, sure, they won't land a direct shot, yeah. That doesn't mean a thing with how ABSOLUTELY MASSIVE those AoEs are. 

 

Should I be punished for being a W+F (screw off, I have a weird configuration) Loki Prime? Absolutely!

Should I be punished because I turned invisible and am trying to shoot a Napalm while moving? No! 

 

But maybe I'm just sour 'n drunk from that blasted mission.

 

So many Napalms...why so many Napalms? Why do all of their AoEs have such massive reach? When will the fire stop? Why aren't the Novas moving, daddy?

If you shoot a napalm and move

 

You wont get hit

[shut]

Having just fought a bizarre Invasion that decided that near-infinite 35+ leveled Napalms were a good thing, Imma say this.

Old Invisibility needs to come back for Loki. Because as it stands, using Quick Thinking is more viable when you're fighting Bombards and Napalms. Oh, sure, they won't land a direct shot, yeah. That doesn't mean a thing with how ABSOLUTELY MASSIVE those AoEs are.

Should I be punished for being a W+F (screw off, I have a weird configuration) Loki Prime? Absolutely!

Should I be punished because I turned invisible and am trying to shoot a Napalm while moving? No!

But maybe I'm just sour 'n drunk from that blasted mission.

So many Napalms...why so many Napalms? Why do all of their AoEs have such massive reach? When will the fire stop? Why aren't the Novas moving, daddy?

Sounds more like a problem with Napalm hitboxes. The blast radius needs to match what is indicated by the animation, whether by shrinking its current hitbox to match the animation or by expanding its current animation to match the hitbox.

Bringing/returning what is effectively godmode to a single class, when every other class suffers from the same issue (some even more so) is a terrible solution.

Edited October 18, 2014 by SortaRandom

[shut]

If you shoot a napalm and move

 

You wont get hit

If by "move" you mean "copter halfway across the map", then sure.

Napalm hitboxes have been broken from day one, and fire procs have only made this even less fair. This is a problem with the game, not the player (although in a Loki's case, distractions and disarming are always helpful).

[Azawarau]

If by "move" you mean "copter halfway across the map", then sure.

Napalm hitboxes have been broken from day one, and fire procs have only made this even less fair. This is a problem with the game, not the player (although in a Loki's case, distractions and disarming are always helpful).

You really cant outrun that slow moving projectile with a loki while invisible even when you see it coming?