Warframe Ability Mods: Coming Changes

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

Here is another example...

 

1) My current build as is:  http://goo.gl/HGM5T8

 

2) Current build using 8-slots:  http://goo.gl/YcldyA

 

3) Updated 8-slot build:  http://goo.gl/MFEMOh

 

The result is again 2 wasted forma as the build #3 only requires 1 (aura slot).  DE should at least offer a refund for any previously forma'd slot regardless of the location.  Many builds are now non-optimal as a result of this upcoming change.

 

EDIT:  There are builds that are closer to being optimal but require the forma'd slots to use high cost mods, such as Narrow Minded or Quick Thinking.  If these mods can be placed in innate polarity slots then the forma often become wasted.  In almost all of my builds at least 1 forma is wasted and will not be refunded according to the script.  This is where the problem exists since DE is being incredibly shortsighted with their solution.

Edited October 22, 2014 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

[Keiga150]

 

I didn't see this question, and didn't see any explanation about it.

 

Q: Will the abilities cost remain (despite not being on the mod screen anymore) or the cost of the abilities will be completely removed?

Because if the cost is completely removed, we might actually want to get some forma back on some cases, where our build will work without that forma (even if we add more mods and can still live without it).

 

it is implied that they will not cost mod points since they are no longer mods to begin with.

 

What if you added the polarity yourself?

It'll just get removed by the scripted. 

 

 

Edit: Quoted wrong one, it is now fixed. 

Edited October 22, 2014 by Keiga150

[Lokime]

This change should have been done a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot earlier. now most players will go nuts.

[scavenge]

"Stay tuned for more information on the specifics of this conversion."

 

I'm still tuned, somewhat...

 

Edit: Why didn't you think about the conversion before? Wtf...

Edited October 22, 2014 by scavenge

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

Finally! God no idea how long I've been waiting for the abilities to be innate and not actual mods <3 Thank you DE! 

 

This is an amazing change (one I kinda thought would never happen, but I was hoping one day it would!) Ohhhh! man can't want to see what new builds people could use now with slots not burdened with the issue of having to either host a ability or regular mod.

 

But on a more serious note....

 

It REALLY sucks we lose 2 slots (probably cause of balancing purposes) I do agree though that losing the two kinda does hinder us. I personally use a build where my frost has 8 regular mods and 2 abilities sloted, now get rid of those two ability mods and what do I get...nothing I'll still have the same build seeing as we won't be getting those 2 slots were losing out on more possibilities at modding.

 

So if anything the only flaw I see with this change is the fact we lose 2 slots, and honestly for the people who don't use abilities and go for using all 10 slots to put in mods other then abilities (people probably do it since it is possible within the system just takes time and forma), your hurting those people even more with that change.

 

So if anything please reconsider this one aspect of the change.

In most cases, having 2 mod slots removed either doesn't change anything (2 ability builds) or benefits you (3~4 ability builds). And when it benefits you, it will probably benefits you so much, that some of your previously used forma won't be as useless anymore, since it seems that abilities won't have a cost anymore. Building 2~4 ability frames will be a lot easier and less time consuming, because you will need less forma.

 

Only cases that doesn't get benefits (or no changes) are the 0~1 ability builds, which I honestly see as a minority, and you just can't please everyone, unless you go break the game balance even further, and right now I don't see a reason to buff the frames right now in such way (3 ability builds for example will get an improvement with the changes, if we didn't lose the 2 slots, every build would get a LOT stronger without a good drawback).

 

Even if I had a 1 ability build (which I don't) which is going to be worse from now on, I still wouldn't get nearly as mad as some people seem to be, because a lot of things will get better, and easier to build, a small sacrifice for a greater good.

Though if I only used a single frame with a single ability, I'd seriously consider a few things. Am I too picky? Do I really like this game?

If I built every frame for a single ability, I'd start questioning if I don't happen to be wasting potential rather than making full use of something.

 

And yeah, time spent re-leveling and forma being wasted, etc, etc, etc. Yeah, well, it still had it's use, unless you didn't use it, at all, which then it was a waste to begin with. That time is gone, with change or no change, it's gone, no point weeping about it or getting butthurt.

Using the past as means to stop evolution and change is rather wrong. The past isn't a weapon, it's knowledge.

 

Changes require sacrifices, you can't please everyone. Now people complain about 2 slots, that most of them doesn't even use because they are being used by abilities. But if they weren't removed, later more people would complain about how this and that frame is even more OP because of the 10 (11) mod slots and weaker the enemies are because of most builds became even stronger without almost no enemies that will stand up against them except on "end game".

 

 

And about the script, it also doesn't matter how it's done, people will lose something. If you make fixed slots, people who weren't playing at that time will get penalized since when they get back, their slots are gone and didn't have the chance change them since they weren't here.

If it targets ability slots first, it will penalize people who used forma and that won't need those forma'ed slots.

And you can find negative points in just about every solution.

(There's negatives in just about everything.)

Unless DE made this HUGE code and UI changes just so we could select which slots we wanted to get deleted, though I wouldn't ask for that, having that being made would probably be hell and would stop the development on areas that actually need it.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Sorrow0110

[Norry.]

Why not refund all forma's used on every frame, and an flag each frame with a "free forma" point of some kind that if used, will not reduce level to 0.

 

Example:

Frame has had 5 forma added to it. Refund them all and put 5 "WhateverYouWantToCallThem" points on the frame.

 

Then, up to 5 forma could be added back without having to re-level the frame to it's current level (since not all forma'd frames will necessarily be 30, one would still have to level it the last of the way to 30 for that last forma, but they were going to have to do that anyway). Perhaps even allow those points to allow a forma to be added below the frame level of 30, since it was obviously leveled to 30 at some point to have added the forma/s in the first place.

 

This solves the issue of worry over wasted forma that wouldn't have had to been used under the new mod system, the skill forma slots, and concern over wasted time re-leveling something that was already done in current mod system. All at once.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Norry.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

@Norry.

 

Great idea but there is still the side effect of having forma points remain unused (the new system requires far less forma to be invested).  I'd go one step further and provide an option to have any installed forma refunded no matter where it is located for 30-60 days after the update.  In this manner players have time to review their builds and see which polarity slots are actually needed; they can still get a refund if they choose to do so.

 

EDIT:  This gives the players 100% control over the refund process.  If they choose to have a forma refunded it is their choice, not DE's so they only have themselves to blame if they have to level the frame again.  The script can be used in addition to this but there should be an option to have any forma'd slot on a warframe refunded.

Edited October 22, 2014 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

[Norry.]

Actually, I said refund all forma anyway. If there is unused points, ok fine, they would be there later if you decided to change something based on new mods. There is no lost forma though since those were all refunded. However, if they wanted all of those formas on the frame, they could put them back without having to re-level.

 

Also, each frame only gains the number of points of formas removed, so there is no one getting something they didn't already earn.

Thought I'd throw that in there, though it was implied to begin with, I know how people get over that kind of thing.

 

EDIT: Method I suggest still gives players 100% control without having to re-level. Instead of deciding which forma to take away, they just decide which to put back on. Same effect. After using up what they have already earned/done, they would still have to level like normal.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Norry.

[ThePresident777]

Advising DE to have a "tough luck, quit your whining" attitude can only back fire.

[Pandoran_Stallion]

Is it possible to keep the Zenurik polarity and use it for mods like Handspring and Rush instead? Mods that boost stats but don't add abilities (qt and rage are an example of a mod that adds an ability).

Leave it as the 9th slot. Make it locked so it can't be forma'd. In doing this, mod point concentration is lower, meaning we have to use forma, and still affects one-trick pony players.

This also allows for us to make up for a frame's weaknesses, like Frost's speed or Ember's cast times, without sacrificing the effectiveness of abilities. Finally, it means that complaints about band-aid mods can be reduced, because there will be a slot specifically for these quality of life mods.

Everyone will have at least one Zenurik slot, so leaving it in place and removing one blank slot should make things easier for many players.

Edited October 22, 2014 by UpgradeInProgress

[Norry.]

From what I've seen DE tries really hard to NOT have that attitude. They have, in the opinion of many, even gone above and beyond in compensation for changes they have made in the past. One of the reasons I love the game, and the team behind it.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

@Norry.

 

As long as I get my unused forma back to apply to different warframe or weapons as I see fit I'm all for it.  That is what you are saying right?  I don't want 2 forma points to remain unused since the 8-slot system doesn't need them.  I would much rather apply those 2 forma to an upcoming weapon.  Given the number of frames I own that is 10-20 forma that I should have refunded to use as I see fit.

Edited October 22, 2014 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

[Norry.]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. ALL forma are refunded. The "point" system is only to avoid re-leveling frames you have already leveled in the past when adding the forma back to it, if you so choose. If you choose to keep the forma for another frame, so be it.

 

 

Edit:

To try and be clear: (in my suggested system)

All forma are refunded to use as player sees fit. Other frames, same frame, other weapons, Kubrow, dojo, whatever.

 

For every forma removed a "point" is added to the frame it was removed from that will keep the frame at it's current level when adding (re-adding) a forma back to it. (To keep from punishing players by making them re-level when they have already done so)

Edited October 22, 2014 by Norry.

[ThePresident777]

It's not just a loss in forma.  It's a loss in the boosters used on that forma too.  And, unlike forma, boosters are not free (maybe once or twice a year).  Boosters cost money.  And more slots encourages more forma which encourages more boosters which is good for DE.

 

And, the issue gets uglier when we move on to weapons.  People want to get rid of mod cards there too (making it a standard RPG rehash, BTW).

Edited October 22, 2014 by ThePresident777

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

Yeah, as stated before the refund process needs to be 100% in control of the player.  There are too many unknowns like boosters, available time (school/work/family), changes in builds, etc. to have a script make such decisions.  The script can be used to start the process but there needs to be an option to control which forma'd slot are refunded, or refund them all and do not require leveling when applying them again (legendary forma).  This process should not penalize players beyond reducing them to a maximum of 8 slots.

 

EDIT:  I hate to say it but Legendary Forma is probably the simplest solution.  As these are non-tradable there is no concern over players gaining platinum from them.  Simply refund all forma invested in all warframes and give players a Legendary Forma instead that does not reset the frame to rank 0 (unranked) when applying it.  If you invested 3 forma you get 3 Legendary Forma refunded.  Besides, this precedent was set with Legendary Fusion Cores.

Edited October 22, 2014 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

[Norry.]

And you saw the tantrum people had over those (maybe you didn't, dunno how long you've played. Just say it was first page issue on forms for a while). Yes, the forma idea would work just perfect. The problem will be those that complain that "you could use those legendary forma on new weapons you didn't earn the levels on and waaaa you have something I don't before me". Would the complaint be valid? No. You earned the 30 levels on something to have been refunded the efforts in an = value. Would they still throw a fit over it. Yup. Easiest and likely best idea, yes. Was going to be my first suggestion as a matter of fact. I just remember how people got over the core thing.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Norry.

[Ronyn]

There is no gain with this change at all.  

Mathematically inaccurate, one sided point of view.

[ZackNeutron]

Sorry I'm too lazy to read.

 

But, one question.

Are all Warframe still have their own Ability after this changes? It's like they are born with their own talent or they have natural talent since they are born and we don't need to install it because they have it by default mechanic? Right or wrong?

 

For example:

 

Game Mechanic right now:

 

Iron Man - He need to install robotic parts to his body to become or have superpower.

 

 

After Ability Mods changes:

 

Superman - He has superhuman ability since he born.

Edited October 22, 2014 by ZackNeutron

[Keiga150]

Sorry I'm too lazy to read.

 

But, one question.

Are all Warframe still have their own Ability after this changes? It's like they are born with their own talent or they have natural talent since they are born and we don't need to install it because they have it by default mechanic? Right or wrong?

They come with all abilities right out of the box. You'll just have to unlock them as you level, and level abilities up by using them X amount of times.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

@Norry.

 

Remember that frames level much slower than weapons.  I can hit rank 30 with a weapon in under an hour.  A warframe takes longer, especially if it has no damage abilities.  While players will always complain, I don't see any other way to fix this without inadvertently screwing over veteran players.

 

EDIT:  The Legendary Core issue was worse since players did not have to spend 10 ranks in a mod to get one.  I doubt as many players would have complained if the only way to get one was to have a rank 10 mod in the first place.  The fact that DE rewarded them for only requiring a rank 6 mod is what made it so bad.  In this case achieving rank 30 is required to invest a forma so DE owes the players that much in return.  Yes, the forums will always complain about something but at least it would be entirely fair for everyone, unlike last time (where PS4 was ignored).

Edited October 22, 2014 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

[ZackNeutron]

They come with all abilities right out of the box. You'll just have to unlock them as you level, and level abilities up by using them X amount of times.

 

Hmm... I see.

Thank you for your response.

Edited October 22, 2014 by ZackNeutron

[vaugahn]

It's not just a loss in forma.  It's a loss in the boosters used on that forma too.  And, unlike forma, boosters are not free (maybe once or twice a year).  Boosters cost money.  And more slots encourages more forma which encourages more boosters which is good for DE.

 

And, the issue gets uglier when we move on to weapons.  People want to get rid of mod cards there too (making it a standard RPG rehash, BTW).

Moving core functions (health, damage, abilities) off the mod system does not make this a standard RPG. It's something people on these forums have been asking for for a long time, and something that will dramatically improve the quality of the game.

 

Edited October 22, 2014 by [DE]Drew
Minor change

[Norry.]

@Hiero

 

Seems we pretty well agree on everything and the best results. If it were me, I'd do the legendary forma idea. However, if they posted that as the new idea to solve all proposed issues and a large population of people complained against it, they could do the other idea, which does leave some time lost from the past system if there are unused "points" on a frame. They would be there in the future if you decided to change something based on new mods or new polarities and I wouldn't mind that as much as having to spend new time on old frames. Losing time I spent in the past isn't as offensive to me as having to spend new time on the same thing I've already done. I'm good as long as I don't have to re-do something on the same thing I've already done it. Hell if they liked the 2 ideas, they could poll and see which the community liked best. My vote would go to the legendary forma, but who knows how others think.

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

Yeah, let's hope DE wants to retain their veteran player base.  There are plenty of AAA games coming out soon and I know a lot of players would be burned by the proposed changes and need to take a break (especially after they flame DE on the forums and get temp-banned).

[Silverton]

lol having fun reading about the minority getting shafted here and complaining when the majority don't build for one power. I like this idea of being able to have all 4 powers. Some warframes have powers I haven't even tried because I needed more mod space.