Archwing: Too Much Of The Same Thing?

[Seox]

I'm well aware that archwing is a work in progress and isn't yet complete, and I know that providing feedback right now while it's at a critical point in its polish and refinement is crucial if we want the best U15 we can get.

 

Watching the devs play with the archwings concerned me a bit - as soon as the enemies popped out in a massive bunch and started firing, it became immediately apparent that this is more of the same coverless "shoot back and forth until someone dies" gameplay that has held Warframe back in the past.

 

Warframe is a rewards-based game, and Warframe's gameplay itself is in large part only an obstacle in the way of the rewards that players are looking for (hence all the rushing). What Warframe needs is more emergent gameplay that is fun in and of itself, and while archwings have a great deal of needed spectacle, nothing about them is apparently engaging beyond the show. We're still faced with gameplay where all we need to do is minmax our stats and powers and spam the correct power while trading fire with enemies. It doesn't really seem that archwing is going to bring anything new beyond 3d environments into the equation.

 

Making things worse is the fact that the map the devs played on didn't seem to carry much cover. While it's easy for them to make more maps with obstacles to stop and recover behind, the existing map emphasizes the lack of choice regarding actions the player has to make when fighting. This is not a trivial problem and not something that should be ignored given the substantial amount of development time that has been given to archwing.

 

Also, to clarify: I'm not trying to say that the game needs to be a cover based shooter - I'm saying that warframe needs deeper, more gratifying gameplay that's fun to play for the sake of playing it, and archwing isn't that content. Archwing feels like the same old thing (we even have four basic powers scaling in intensity!) with maybe a bit more dodging and some (admittedly) really sexy spectacle to it. Archwing will likely be about the same power minmaxing that the current meta features.

 

TL;DR: Archwing appears to be simply 3d Warframe - the same "trade gunfire and hide behind the few objects that exist in space until you can continue to do this in between presses of 4" seems to be present, and that means less prominent and fun gameplay for the sake of gameplay. It's difficult to make something that is challenging, but fun, when your survival is as simple as "how long will my shields and health last against X enemy DPS." While archwing provides much-needed spectacle to the game, it seems to lack the depth of play that would allow for challenging and interesting experiences that would be interesting in and of themselves and too closely mimics existing gameplay. 

 

Disclaimer: Yes, it's a work in progress. That's why I'm giving feedback. It's ok if we don't agree - not everyone is interested in the same things.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Seox

[Vargras]

This game has never been big on cover (you're a space ninja, dodge it instead), and one of the archwings straight up had a shield to block the shots.

 

I'm not seeing the point of this.

[Seox]

This game has never been big on cover (you're a space ninja, dodge it instead), and one of the archwings straight up had a shield to block the shots.

 

I'm not seeing the point of this.

 

Please read the post next time.

 

It's still a DPS race. If the shield mitigates damage, you're still trading fire until you drop. If the shield is invul, then it trivializes content. 

 

I'm not seeing the point of this.

[vaugahn]

I'd like the roll to be lengthened so it's a little more useful as a dodge, but other than that it seemed fine. I'm more concerned about trench run, getting ambushed in one of those little tubes would not be fun.

[Vargras]

Please read the post next time.

 

It's still a DPS race. If the shield mitigates damage, you're still trading fire until you drop. If the shield is invul, then it trivializes content. 

 

I'm not seeing the point of this.

I did read your post. You stated that the lack of cover has held back the game in the past, and yet the game has never been big on cover. You can sprint, slide, jump, and flip all over the place. You can even parry bullets with a sword. You don't need cover.

 

Not only that, but cover (as you think of it) will be present in Archwing in the form of asteroids and debris. This has already been seen in past streams.

[TheCrimsonCrown]

I'd like the roll to be lengthened so it's a little more useful as a dodge, but other than that it seemed fine. I'm more concerned about trench run, getting ambushed in one of those little tubes would not be fun.

that or traps in those tubes like loose wires creating an electric arc around them

cracked heat pipes

pressurized air pipes

I did read your post. You stated that the lack of cover has held back the game in the past, and yet the game has never been big on cover. You can sprint, slide, jump, and flip all over the place. You can even parry bullets with a sword. You don't need cover.

 

Not only that, but cover (as you think of it) will be present in Archwing in the form of asteroids and debris. This has already been seen in past streams.

he also mentioned that the gameplay is almost the same and linear if you want to succeed.

[Fabpsi]

I know the feeling, but there will be some other mission types:

(some were mentioned here http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/10/16/warframe-archwing-update/  -i know  i know..rps <.<  )

 

We will get some different mission types, not only "kill and destroy" , some deathstar dodge/ trench run -which was shown in the devstream- a little bit ressource mining... and exploration) 

 

But.... as always in warframe.... a lot of stuff will be:

Kill enemies / defend point X from Y Enemies... survive.... 

Edited October 17, 2014 by Fabpsi

[Seox]

I'm well aware that archwing is a work in progress and isn't yet complete, and I know that providing feedback right now while it's at a critical point in its polish and refinement is crucial if we want the best U15 we can get.

 

Watching the devs play with the archwings concerned me a bit - as soon as the enemies popped out in a massive bunch and started firing, it became immediately apparent that this is more of the same coverless "shoot back and forth until someone dies" gameplay that has held Warframe back in the past.

 

 

I did read your post. You stated that the lack of cover has held back the game in the past, and yet the game has never been big on cover. You can sprint, slide, jump, and flip all over the place. You can even parry bullets with a sword. You don't need cover.

 

Not only that, but cover (as you think of it) will be present in Archwing in the form of asteroids and debris. This has already been seen in past streams.

 

Don't quote mine and take things out of context. It's less the cover and more about the fact that it's not particularly deep gameplay.

 

Sprinting, sliding, jumping, and flipping all over the place does little to stop hitscan rifles outside of archwing, and it won't help for hitscan rifles within archwing. Even if enemies have weapons without hitscan properties, the additional factor of dodging will benefit, but not sufficiently address, flat gameplay.

 

I specifically address the point of existing cover. Please read the OP before you insist you understand my point and then state multiple things I already addressed or didn't claim.

 

 

I know the feeling, but there will be some other mission types:

(some were mentioned here http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/10/16/warframe-archwing-update/  -i know  i know..rps <.<  )

 

We will get some different mission types, not only "kill and destroy" , some deathstar dodge/ trench run -which was shown in the devstream- a little bit ressource mining... and exploration) 

 

But.... as always in warframe.... a lot of stuff will be:

Kill enemies / defend point X from Y Enemies... survive.... 

 

That's true, and I feel that that's the most promising aspect of archwing. I really hope that that's enough to make the style fun by itself. 

Edited October 17, 2014 by Seox

[Innocent_Flower]

I'd still rather they work on existing gameplay issues, rather than create entirely seperate gameplay that'l have it's own issues

[Seox]

I'd still rather they work on existing gameplay issues, rather than create entirely seperate gameplay that'l have it's own issues

 

The teams that work on fixing existing issues and the teams that work on new content aren't the same, and it's well known that companies that develop content more slowly have less satisfied players. There's definitely a balance they've gotta strike.

[Innocent_Flower]

Evidently the team who works on existing issues with gameplay is too small or...  

[Davoodoo]

The teams that work on fixing existing issues and the teams that work on new content aren't the same, and it's well known that companies that develop content more slowly have less satisfied players. There's definitely a balance they've gotta strike.

Was it sheldon that was working on it?? yeah that guy who also worked on ships, balance(and kubrows if im not mistaken) and many things before that.

[notionphil]

Was it sheldon that was working on it?? yeah that guy who also worked on ships, balance(and kubrows if im not mistaken) and many things before that.

Correct. People like to throw the "different teams" argument to indicate that it's somehow the fault of an evil HR manager that DE won't fix existing content or add depth and instead has to keep adding more kubrow-like-diversions to the game.

Those people are incorrect.

[HackShield]

you know as more that game looks like a FPS its still a mmo its was never made to use cover in first places its all about parkour....

 

cover is there IF needed not for ITS needed.

 

 

the game is focused on combine your stuff right  parkou trhough it and bash ppl away.

 

and the second thing that can doen use your parkour skills and enjoy the easter eggs we left in maps yay :D

 

but medal of honor style was never involded.

 

and if i take your point every basic mmo its a bullet sponge battle but you got health potion and in wf your can dodge and parkour .

 

so on minimal settings seen WF is more a dodge and dont get hit game as the most other mmos where you can onyl tank heal and use a potion.

[Seox]

you know as more that game looks like a FPS its still a mmo its was never made to use cover in first places its all about parkour....

 

cover is there IF needed not for ITS needed.

 

 

the game is focused on combine your stuff right  parkou trhough it and bash ppl away.

 

and the second thing that can doen use your parkour skills and enjoy the easter eggs we left in maps yay :D

 

but medal of honor style was never involded.

 

and if i take your point every basic mmo its a bullet sponge battle but you got health potion and in wf your can dodge and parkour .

 

so on minimal settings seen WF is more a dodge and dont get hit game as the most other mmos where you can onyl tank heal and use a potion.

 

I should probably rephrase the OP - I don't mean to imply that the game should be a cover based shooter; I mean to say that the game is incredibly shallow in the actual gameplay once you remove the rewards-driven factor, and that what warframe needs is deeper, more meaningful gameplay, not the exact same type of 4-ability + basic gunfire play we have now with gimmicky 3d, a bit more dodging, and a bit of admittedly amazing spectacle. 

 

Parkour doesn't really add much to warframe. Yes, it's gratifying to move around quickly and feels great once you get it down, but parkour is in many ways clunky and lacks some of the basic functionality that it could have to feel gratifying and satisfying by itself. This is a very closely related issue and there's an amazing feedback thread that hits that topic much better than I can. 

 

No, warframe is absolutely not a "dodge and don't get hit" game. While it's possible to dodge some enemies and factions, you're rarely going to dodge a substantial amount of incoming fire and that's not how people handle endgame content. Endgame is all about minmaxing specific abilities that make it easy to take enemies out of the fight before you get taken down - it's not about cover or dodging.