Don't Hate Me! But...iron Skin Change.

[Hixlysss]

For the longest time, and personally I still feel this, Rhino is the "Ultimate Warframe" for many people. A fire and forget warframe. Quick, easy to use, doesn't really need a whole lot of variety in modding to make him useful. Just stack power strength for iron skin and you have the ultimate survivability. The only thing that MIGHT rival this is valkyr with steel fiber along with rage and quick thinking. Sure, Frost has snow globe, but that has a duration on it as well as health(Honestly, it should be one or the other, but that is for another time.)

 

Right now, I have an idea for iron skin to make it a little less....over powered. First, make it only prevent damage to your health, not your health and shields, for me this just makes more sense. I mean poison goes through shields, so unless iron SKIN covers the shields as well somehow, the shields, which seem to be kenetic based, should absorb the damage first and THEN once shields are DOWN iron SKIN protects you SKIN I.E. Health! Okay. CHange one, you have to get through shields to hit iron skin, fine and dandy.

 

*Gets in anti flame bunker.* Second, because it has to get through the shield you can reduce the damage reduction iron skin provides. *Hides from flame bombs.* BUT! Considering some of the other changes to warframe powers, I.E. Snow Globe, give Iron skin a buff based on how much armor Rhino has, and/or if it was applied while shields are down. The latter would give iron skin more usefulness at higher levels, as a "reflex" activate. As it stands now, there are moments where your iron skin can be oneshot and poofed, where as if with the "buff if activated when shields down + armor" can give it a little more meat for those more difficult missions.

 

I'm looking for ways to scale rhino's move useful survivability skill with higher tiers. I'm sure there is a way to make iron skin behave just like snow glob, where you are invulnerable for a couple seconds, get hit, and it buffs itself based on the DPS you take, plus other bonuses.

 

*Crawls back under the bunker.*

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

The only true way to scale would be to give Iron Skin 'tick's and one tick would be one point of damage.

[Arkezuli]

That's all fine and dandy, but...

If DE would just make Iron Skin toggleable, I'd already be the happiest Tenno ever.

[Ayamiss]

Why don't we just get duration based IS like it was before, so rhino can be close to immortal frame (nobody complain about immortal valkyr and everyone is ok about that). Rhino is a tank and should not be weaker in defence that a frame that is supposed to be high risk high reward that is our berserker frame.

[BrotherIcarus]

I am confused you say it's OP then suggest buffing it? 

[BrotherIcarus]

Why don't we just get duration based IS like it was before, so rhino can be close to immortal frame (nobody complain about immortal valkyr and everyone is ok about that). Rhino is a tank and should not be weaker in defence that a frame that is supposed to be high risk high reward that is our berserker frame.

Valkyr's immortality comes with a heavy restriction thus it is accepted. Given how all the "immortal" powers have be changed I highly doubt DE would change one back to being immortal. 

[Evan-0-matic]

Why don't we just get duration based IS like it was before, so rhino can be close to immortal frame (nobody complain about immortal valkyr and everyone is ok about that). Rhino is a tank and should not be weaker in defence that a frame that is supposed to be high risk high reward that is our berserker frame.

THIS!

To the OP... Rhino may be an easier frame to use. But he is not easy to master. I for one, don't max power strength... I prefer to be a team orientated Rhino with a Roar that lasts almost 30 seconds! I font even use Stomp most of the time as i find Charge to be very useful. And try taking him to a T4 anything and see how your maxed Iron Skin holds up.

It is and he is, NOT over powered.

[HadronVictorioso]

Rhino is in no way overpowered.

 

Play some T4.

[Azawarau]

Why don't we just get duration based IS like it was before, so rhino can be close to immortal frame (nobody complain about immortal valkyr and everyone is ok about that). Rhino is a tank and should not be weaker in defence that a frame that is supposed to be high risk high reward that is our berserker frame.

Valkyr is a tank tank

 

Rhino is a support tank

[Hixlysss]

Rhino is in no way overpowered.

 

Play some T4.

Kay. One thing. ONE thing out of the game that he isn't OP at. Where as others have a sorta straight line of "I'm pretty much the same everywhere." In T4, he has what...Rhino Stomp and maaaaybe Roar, if he is built to use those.

 

Iron Skin is arguably his most favorite skill, perhaps on par if not RIGHT behind Rhino Stomp. For at least 80% of the game, you just use iron skin, and shoot stuff. Then, when you hit T4, you have to activate it a bit more often, or Rhino Stomp More. To say he isn't over powered because of one thing which you can't even casually stroll in to, you have to WORK to get to T4, is a poor point.

 

He is easy to use, very easy to use, but also very powerful because of 2 skills. Rhino Stomp for CC, Iron Skin for survivability. The only other frame that is close to him, if not on par, is Valkyr, and the only reason she is survivable is because of a massive armor buff, nearly three times Rhino's armor which can get stacked MANY times over with her own skills and steel fiber, plus she has one power that makes her invulnerable, at least for a duration.

 

Now honestly, I'm just saying Iron Skin needs some changes. First, I'd like it to be iron skin, not iron shield, as it stands it's iron shield. If it's going to be iron skin, it should block damage to your health, not health and shields. Secondly, because it is an ability focused on keeping you alive, why not give it the treatment snow globe got? Buff to health based on armor, plus a duration where it is invulnerable to take damage and buff itself based on that.

 

Doing that makes it a bit more....involved I believe. Rather than Iron Skin just being this "Oh, my shields are being hit, better put iron skin back up! *press button* all better for the rest of the match~" or some such situation like that.

[Koler93]

Valkyr's immortality comes with a heavy restriction thus it is accepted. Given how all the "immortal" powers have be changed I highly doubt DE would change one back to being immortal. 

 

It always bothered me how you can describe those heavy restrictions ?

This is Hysteria description from warframe wikia:

Overcome with rage, Valkyr unleashes her wrath using a set of energy claws and becomes immune to damage and Status Effects over a duration of 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 seconds. While Hysteria is active, the claws are the only weapons Valkyr can use. The claws grant Valkyr a unique set of melee combos, and 1% / 2% / 4% / 5% of the melee damage she inflicts is regained as health. Valkyr will also radiate energy should there be an enemy within 5 meters of her position. Enemies within this aura are highlighted; should any enemy remain highlighted as Hysteria expires, Valkyr will be dealt 7.5% of the total amount of damage she received while Hysteria was active.

• Lifesteal is not affected by Power Strength.
• Duration is affected by Power Duration
• Aura radius is affected by Power Range.
• Status effect immunity includes crowd-controlling effects such as Knockdowns and staggers. Certain attacks will push Valkyr away, and shockwaves will cause her to bounce into the air slightly. However, these attacks will not push Valkyr to the ground.
• Valkyr is not immune to Eximus energy drains or the small energy drains from Ancient Disrupter attacks. However, Nauseous Crawler disables have no effect on her.
• Highlighted enemies become unmarked if Valkyr moves out of range, negating the damage taken when Hysteria expires.
• Valkyr's other abilities are usable while Hysteria is active.

  So basically she is immune to dmg and status effects from any source for 20 sec affected by power duration? (definietly not OP)

  Second thing is her health/ armor value :

  

  with Rage and Quick thinking + 600 armor which reduces dmg taken by 66%. Isnt she strong enought ??

  And now take a look at Trinity:

  100 base health and ONLY 15 armor (it was about 6 % dmg reduction,i know she has link and but forcing us to cast 3rd ability to survive is just stupid)

  No CC abilities, 2 one target skills (Wol is useless, but Ev works pretty well)

  And finally Blessing, ultimate support skill the one reason why people keep playing trinity. I played over 750 h in warframe and i really liked trinity. Her immortality allowed me to do many crazy things, revive dying players without bigger problem. That was cool i first time found support class really enjoyable. And now ?

  Using her is worse than playing desecrate necro. Her defence stats are like sheet of paper(basically when your shields are down you are dead without QT and rage), none CC abities. Now to keep teamates alive and survive you have to spam 2->3->4 over and over again.Before nerf you had to to do it every x sec(duration build). You cant even imagine how is it boring in comparision to Necro. Why Valkyr immortality can be accepted and Trinity immortality was OP ?

  In every game NOONE want to play support, and here ?

  People plays support, lets nerf it.

  Sry, maybe i wrote to much(most of it isnt in any way connected with topic) but when i see that immortality on Valkyr is OK and on other warframes is OP it's really making me..

   

[vaugahn]

It always bothered me how you can describe those heavy restrictions ?

 

Locked into short range melee with fixed damage, and can get self-killed very easily in more difficult missions. 

[Azawarau]

 

It always bothered me how you can describe those heavy restrictions ?

This is Hysteria description from warframe wikia:

Overcome with rage, Valkyr unleashes her wrath using a set of energy claws and becomes immune to damage and Status Effects over a duration of 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 seconds. While Hysteria is active, the claws are the only weapons Valkyr can use. The claws grant Valkyr a unique set of melee combos, and 1% / 2% / 4% / 5% of the melee damage she inflicts is regained as health. Valkyr will also radiate energy should there be an enemy within 5 meters of her position. Enemies within this aura are highlighted; should any enemy remain highlighted as Hysteria expires, Valkyr will be dealt 7.5% of the total amount of damage she received while Hysteria was active.

• Lifesteal is not affected by Power Strength.
• Duration is affected by Power Duration
• Aura radius is affected by Power Range.
• Status effect immunity includes crowd-controlling effects such as Knockdowns and staggers. Certain attacks will push Valkyr away, and shockwaves will cause her to bounce into the air slightly. However, these attacks will not push Valkyr to the ground.
• Valkyr is not immune to Eximus energy drains or the small energy drains from Ancient Disrupter attacks. However, Nauseous Crawler disables have no effect on her.
• Highlighted enemies become unmarked if Valkyr moves out of range, negating the damage taken when Hysteria expires.
• Valkyr's other abilities are usable while Hysteria is active.

  So basically she is immune to dmg and status effects from any source for 20 sec affected by power duration? (definietly not OP)

  Second thing is her health/ armor value :

  

  with Rage and Quick thinking + 600 armor which reduces dmg taken by 66%. Isnt she strong enought ??

  And now take a look at Trinity:

  100 base health and ONLY 15 armor (it was about 6 % dmg reduction,i know she has link and but forcing us to cast 3rd ability to survive is just stupid)

  No CC abilities, 2 one target skills (Wol is useless, but Ev works pretty well)

  And finally Blessing, ultimate support skill the one reason why people keep playing trinity. I played over 750 h in warframe and i really liked trinity. Her immortality allowed me to do many crazy things, revive dying players without bigger problem. That was cool i first time found support class really enjoyable. And now ?

  Using her is worse than playing desecrate necro. Her defence stats are like sheet of paper(basically when your shields are down you are dead without QT and rage), none CC abities. Now to keep teamates alive and survive you have to spam 2->3->4 over and over again.Before nerf you had to to do it every x sec(duration build). You cant even imagine how is it boring in comparision to Necro. Why Valkyr immortality can be accepted and Trinity immortality was OP ?

  In every game NOONE want to play support, and here ?

  People plays support, lets nerf it.

  Sry, maybe i wrote to much(most of it isnt in any way connected with topic) but when i see that immortality on Valkyr is OK and on other warframes is OP it's really making me..

   

 

Add powers into that and trinity jumps right to the top of the list

 

Add QT and both trinity and Valkyr leave the rest in the dust

 

Using a power to survive isnt stupid

 

Its what you should be doing

 

Locked into short range melee with fixed damage, and can get self-killed very easily in more difficult missions. 

Only on very high lvl enemies really

 

Grineer dont do enough damage until way high up to really hurt a valkyr or trinity meleeing

 

Corpus can be hellish fast

 

Orokin are eh and Infested are only annoying when you get energy zapped (fairly common still sadly) though are probably the easiest faction to melee still if you arent alone

[BrotherIcarus]

 

It always bothered me how you can describe those heavy restrictions ?

This is Hysteria description from warframe wikia:

Overcome with rage, Valkyr unleashes her wrath using a set of energy claws and becomes immune to damage and Status Effects over a duration of 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 seconds. While Hysteria is active, the claws are the only weapons Valkyr can use. The claws grant Valkyr a unique set of melee combos, and 1% / 2% / 4% / 5% of the melee damage she inflicts is regained as health. Valkyr will also radiate energy should there be an enemy within 5 meters of her position. Enemies within this aura are highlighted; should any enemy remain highlighted as Hysteria expires, Valkyr will be dealt 7.5% of the total amount of damage she received while Hysteria was active.

• Lifesteal is not affected by Power Strength.
• Duration is affected by Power Duration
• Aura radius is affected by Power Range.
• Status effect immunity includes crowd-controlling effects such as Knockdowns and staggers. Certain attacks will push Valkyr away, and shockwaves will cause her to bounce into the air slightly. However, these attacks will not push Valkyr to the ground.
• Valkyr is not immune to Eximus energy drains or the small energy drains from Ancient Disrupter attacks. However, Nauseous Crawler disables have no effect on her.
• Highlighted enemies become unmarked if Valkyr moves out of range, negating the damage taken when Hysteria expires.
• Valkyr's other abilities are usable while Hysteria is active.

  So basically she is immune to dmg and status effects from any source for 20 sec affected by power duration? (definietly not OP)

  Second thing is her health/ armor value :

  

  with Rage and Quick thinking + 600 armor which reduces dmg taken by 66%. Isnt she strong enought ??

  And now take a look at Trinity:

  100 base health and ONLY 15 armor (it was about 6 % dmg reduction,i know she has link and but forcing us to cast 3rd ability to survive is just stupid)

  No CC abilities, 2 one target skills (Wol is useless, but Ev works pretty well)

  And finally Blessing, ultimate support skill the one reason why people keep playing trinity. I played over 750 h in warframe and i really liked trinity. Her immortality allowed me to do many crazy things, revive dying players without bigger problem. That was cool i first time found support class really enjoyable. And now ?

  Using her is worse than playing desecrate necro. Her defence stats are like sheet of paper(basically when your shields are down you are dead without QT and rage), none CC abities. Now to keep teamates alive and survive you have to spam 2->3->4 over and over again.Before nerf you had to to do it every x sec(duration build). You cant even imagine how is it boring in comparision to Necro. Why Valkyr immortality can be accepted and Trinity immortality was OP ?

  In every game NOONE want to play support, and here ?

  People plays support, lets nerf it.

  Sry, maybe i wrote to much(most of it isnt in any way connected with topic) but when i see that immortality on Valkyr is OK and on other warframes is OP it's really making me..

It is considered OK by most people because she has nothing in the way of solid CC and is completely limited in the fact that she cannot shoot things.

 

I stopped relying on the statistics in warframe a long time ago.

[VentiGlondi]

Iron Skin is in this weird limbo, where it's either too good or not good enough.

To be honest, I doubt it is possible to balance it out in the energy system. Free shield that you can just keep on reapplying.

...  Maybe if it was a tad stronger but had slower casting speed.

 

lots of stuff

One broken ability doesn't excuse the other.

I'm not really sure why Hysteria still makes you immortal.

[007-Creed]

Rhino isnt OP at all as most unexperienced players or people who never went to late game think off. He is probabily one of the most easy warframes to use until 30-40 enemy lvl because of iron skin. Now what people dont realize is that it has hit points which scales pretty badly after those levels. He should be a tank for the team not a baby to be carried. Without a CC warframe on team and u plan go deep on the game you will fail pretty badly. As a tank he shouldnt be so dependent on CC warframes. Have u even played a high lvl grineer survival like on ceres 35+? Just 1 from hordes of ballistas or 1 bombard makes u run for life and im not speaking about napalms that were removed after the new tileset which makes me sad. Iron skin, the moment u use it it goes down, is such an unreliable ability, what rly saves him is the stomp. Since stomp is the ultimate and most costly ability, do i need to carry dozens of energy restores to stomp all time to survive? I would like to see pure base damage or hit points on abilities removed and turn it into % so it scales better. Comparing to other tanks rhino and frost are the worst. Zhepyr has turbulence with timer (although avoid grineer makes sense as the ability is described) and valkyr has timed immortality.

Rhino definetly needs a buff on survivability, improving iron skin or changing roar into a defensive ability or even complementary to iron skin when combined, because 50% damage boost makes no sense, would be much better if that % would be changed to damage reduction. Tbh idc if people use it on ship b4 dropping on mission or when they are almost dying, is up to each one of us to choose how to play the game and use the abilities when we want, BUT i agree is quite annoying seeing a rhino use skin right on beggining.

I rly would like to see rhino beeing a good tank for the team late game. Just an idea, but i think would be awesome if roar gave damage reduction and also making enemies panic, increasing rhino threat lvl which would make them focus on him and less on team, but for this he would have to be rly huge damage absorber.

Its time to stop CC warframes winning the game, but complement it. Tanks should be able to absorb most damage and CC to help survive offensive frames or protect objectives like defense mission crypods. I went a bit off topic now but we all know offensive abilities on warframes need a buff/utility too not just rhino survivability.

[Vaskadar]

Er, I'd like it if it worked like this:

 

Brief period of damage absorption (which bolsters health kind of like how Snow Globe works at the moment) like a reactive/ablative gel that hardens when damaged (3-5 seconds, unmodifiable). This brief period of absorption should be activated with tactical thought. This gel, however, slows his movement speed up to a certain percentage (probably up to a 20-30% at max movement speed penalty) depending on how much damage he's absorbed. Iron Skin values modified by strength, health and armor.

 

To visually provide feedback for the player, the more damage absorbed, the more ferrite crystals pop up on his armor.

 

After this period of tremendous damage tanking, Rhino's ablative metal gel starts to dissipate. This period is stretched out over a 30 second time period (when the ability is maxed out), and as the excess armor is shed, the movement speed penalty dissipates. It can be extended massively by Narrow Minded and other duration mods.

 

Because duration modifies the new Iron Skin's lasting effects, it would then make builds utilizing Fleeting Expertise less effective overall. You'd have to choose between being able to cast more frequently and have your extra armor deplete faster, or the opposite for more energy.

 

This proposed change will make Rhino more effective as a late game tank, without making him roflols easy in planetary missions.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Vaskadar

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I think it should drain energy while used (but have no damage cap). The way Iron Skin is used right now, they should just double Rhino's shields and give him 3X the armor, because all Iron Skin is, is an extra health bar. Making it drain energy would make it more tactical, and would make it work better at all levels: at low levels Iron Skin wouldn't be mission-long God Mode for Rhino users, and at high levels it wouldn't be paper mache.

[Azawarau]

I think it should drain energy while used (but have no damage cap). The way Iron Skin is used right now, they should just double Rhino's shields and give him 3X the armor, because all Iron Skin is, is an extra health bar. Making it drain energy would make it more tactical, and would make it work better at all levels: at low levels Iron Skin wouldn't be mission-long God Mode for Rhino users, and at high levels it wouldn't be paper mache.

Valkyr would no longer be the tankiest frame

 

Or rather

 

Not worth using VS a frame with slightly less armor, more shields and a CC and all around damage buff

Edited October 19, 2014 by Azawarau

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Valkyr would no longer be the tankiest frame

 

Or rather

 

Not worth using VS a frame with slightly less armor, more shields and a CC and all around damage buff

 

I disagree with this. I'd still use Valkyr over Rhino 99% of the time if this were the case and I'm sure others would agree. Valkyr's faster (Arcane Vanguard needs a nerf but it's been discontinued anyway), has amazing armor (they aren't even close), and hauts an ultimate that restores her health. But if it would help, I would add that shields don't recharge while under the new Iron Skin. The idea would be that it's only used in desperation scenarios, when someone's down, or when a player realizes s/he's about to get hit by a lot of damage or crowd control (immunity would begin as soon as it's cast).

[Azawarau]

I disagree with this. I'd still use Valkyr over Rhino 99% of the time if this were the case and I'm sure others would agree. Valkyr's faster (Arcane Vanguard needs a nerf but it's been discontinued anyway), has amazing armor (they aren't even close), and hauts an ultimate that restores her health. But if it would help, I would add that shields don't recharge while under the new Iron Skin. The idea would be that it's only used in desperation scenarios, when someone's down, or when a player realizes s/he's about to get hit by a lot of damage or crowd control (immunity would begin as soon as it's cast).

Rhino primes speed is equal to Valkyrs.

 

With the suggested buff rhino would be 30 armor away from valkyr before mods

 

Valkyrs ult is less useful than life strike for heals and actually limits her damage ability greatly

 

Irons skin also makes you entirely CC immune without having to be in a weaker melee god mode

 

Even without shields Rhino would be inches from valkyr aside from warcry but have a very large CC and damage buff to back it up

 

Stomp and IS all day

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Rhino primes speed is equal to Valkyrs.

 

With the suggested buff rhino would be 30 armor away from valkyr before mods

 

Valkyrs ult is less useful than life strike for heals and actually limits her damage ability greatly

 

Irons skin also makes you entirely CC immune without having to be in a weaker melee god mode

 

Even without shields Rhino would be inches from valkyr aside from warcry but have a very large CC and damage buff to back it up

 

Stomp and IS all day

 

Maybe I should have clarified that I wasn't suggesting the Iron Skin change in addition to the OP's suggestions.

[Azawarau]

Maybe I should have clarified that I wasn't suggesting the Iron Skin change in addition to the OP's suggestions.

I was referring to your post specifically

 

Just the 3x armor for iron skin would bring valkyr down in many ways

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I was referring to your post specifically

 

Just the 3x armor for iron skin would bring valkyr down in many ways

 

My post never mentioned 3X armor for Iron Skin. It was energy draining invulnerability. Meaning it would only be good for desperate scenarios.

[Azawarau]

I think it should drain energy while used (but have no damage cap). The way Iron Skin is used right now, they should just double Rhino's shields and give him 3X the armor, because all Iron Skin is, is an extra health bar. Making it drain energy would make it more tactical, and would make it work better at all levels: at low levels Iron Skin wouldn't be mission-long God Mode for Rhino users, and at high levels it wouldn't be paper mache.

 

 

My post never mentioned 3X armor for Iron Skin. It was energy draining invulnerability. Meaning it would only be good for desperate scenarios.

Explain this better then

 

Entire invulnerability is even worse by the way

 

Rage QT LS and IS all day long