Don't Hate Me! But...iron Skin Change.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Explain this better then

 

Entire invulnerability is even worse by the way

 

Rage QT LS and IS all day long

 

Think of how Absorb or Undertow works, except the energy drain would be much quicker. 25 energy initial cost + let's say 15 energy/second (not affected by efficiency mods), and like those abilities you can't pick up energy orbs while the ability's active. It would be coupled with extreme aggro, so it would work at getting teammates or an objective out of danger for a short time, but it would not be optimal for blocking a Rhino from taking damage whenever the player wants, like the current Iron Skin.

 

Entire invulnerability isn't much different from being untargetable for up to 31 seconds *looks at Loki Prime picture*. The difference is that the energy drain kills viability to spamming my proposed Iron Skin. A Rhino can use this new Iron Skin, but if it keeps it too long it will lose access to its whole skill set quickly. There wouldn't be a build where a Rhino could last 30 seconds using Iron Skin, would be able to get energy for other abilities (like Hysteria or Invisibility), or could use it for a whole mission without being damaged like our current Iron Skin. On the flip side, there would never be a point where a single grenade goes straight through Iron Skin like cardboard, or where a Rhino couldn't revive its teammate before Iron Skin was down.

[Insidiatorii]

Why don't we just get duration based IS like it was before, so rhino can be close to immortal frame (nobody complain about immortal valkyr and everyone is ok about that). Rhino is a tank and should not be weaker in defence that a frame that is supposed to be high risk high reward that is our berserker frame.

I highly agree, with you. I posted a topic addressing this, why is Valkyr more of a tank frame than anything else? It doesn't always matter about the skills either. Valkyr has good and bad skills, as well as Rhino. Rhino USED to be my favourite frame until they nerfed him, now I feel like Excalibur has stronger survivability than Rhino Prime does. I also agree to the fact that she is a BERSERKER frame so she should have less health since her Ult makes her rampage. I'm kind of thinking like they should just switch their stats a little...

[Azawarau]

Think of how Absorb or Undertow works, except the energy drain would be much quicker. 25 energy initial cost + let's say 15 energy/second (not affected by efficiency mods), and like those abilities you can't pick up energy orbs while the ability's active. It would be coupled with extreme aggro, so it would work at getting teammates or an objective out of danger for a short time, but it would not be optimal for blocking a Rhino from taking damage whenever the player wants, like the current Iron Skin.

 

Entire invulnerability isn't much different from being untargetable for up to 31 seconds *looks at Loki Prime picture*. The difference is that the energy drain kills viability to spamming my proposed Iron Skin. A Rhino can use this new Iron Skin, but if it keeps it too long it will lose access to its whole skill set quickly. There wouldn't be a build where a Rhino could last 30 seconds using Iron Skin, would be able to get energy for other abilities (like Hysteria or Invisibility), or could use it for a whole mission without being damaged like our current Iron Skin. On the flip side, there would never be a point where a single grenade goes straight through Iron Skin like cardboard, or where a Rhino couldn't revive its teammate before Iron Skin was down.

Itd have to be e vamp immune as well and seems like itll become the tool of energy item abuse still

 

By the way i main valkyr and sub ember and trinity. Loki is just for spotting my own posts faster

 

I have an alternate suggestion

 

Lower iron skins HP but make it affected by armor and give it a duration

 

With steel fiber it could have more effective HP than it does now but not last an entire mission on one cast and have a bit of corrupted mod balance

[taiiat]

hm. those are some interesting metrics. i like the thought of having Iron Skin behind Shields, but in front of Health.

 

applying Armor bonuses to Iron Skin can't hurt i suppose. gives you more sources to boost from, so then not all just Power Strength but also Armor as well.

but i don't know how i feel about needing to cast it while Shields are down for maximum effect. i feel like you'll see Rhino's trying to do that, and just getting killed while casting it. it sounds too unreliable with infinite Level Enemies. i approve of timing it well rewarding you, but that method could be impractical with higher Level Enemies.

 

perhaps this can be a different way. if successfully casted while Shields are down (perhaps under 10% would be acceptable to make it a bit easier to pull off since Shields won't hold off regenning for you), then Iron Skin could do something similar to Snowglobe, a short invulnerability window, absorbing all Damage taken during it to add to the tertiary Health Bar that is Iron Skin.

 

otherwise, Iron Skin would cast normally, i suppose. putting it behind Shields does open up some ways to avoid Iron Skin losing Health from stray shots here and there, letting your Shields deflect those off, saving Iron Skin for more dangerous situations. i could even see Rhino's using Shield Recharge Mods as a niche.

 

i don't know about this, but perhaps you'd only be resistant to CC while your Shields are above 10% (knockdowns converted into staggers, Et Cetera), and under 10% you'd be immune to CC. it sounds fine to me, making for a tradeoff decision of using Shields to deflect Damage off of Iron Skin as much as possible, or 'nerfing' your Shields as much as possible for CC immunity, but... *shrugs*

 

Edit:

25 energy initial cost + let's say 15 energy/second (not affected by efficiency)

IMO, if you need to make parts of an ability immune to Mods affecting them to make the Ability balanced - then the Ability isn't balanced and should go back to the drawing board.

Edited October 21, 2014 by taiiat

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

IMO, if you need to make parts of an ability immune to Mods affecting them to make the Ability balanced - then the Ability isn't balanced and should go back to the drawing board.

 

Fair enough. I think it would be balanced even with efficiency, I just didn't feel like doing the math. It would still drain close to 4 energy per second with max efficiency. Since you couldn't pick up energy while it was active I think it would be balanced still. Although maybe increasing the initial cast cost to 35 or even 50 energy would help. Then again, maybe you and Azawarau are right.

 

 

Itd have to be e vamp immune as well and seems like itll become the tool of energy item abuse still

 

By the way i main valkyr and sub ember and trinity. Loki is just for spotting my own posts faster

 

I have an alternate suggestion

 

Lower iron skins HP but make it affected by armor and give it a duration

 

With steel fiber it could have more effective HP than it does now but not last an entire mission on one cast and have a bit of corrupted mod balance

 

I actually think that could be viable. Another solution would be to have damage and health abilities scale, but I doubt I'll see that anytime soon.

[Azawarau]

Fair enough. I think it would be balanced even with efficiency, I just didn't feel like doing the math. It would still drain close to 4 energy per second with max efficiency. Since you couldn't pick up energy while it was active I think it would be balanced still. Although maybe increasing the initial cast cost to 35 or even 50 energy would help. Then again, maybe you and Azawarau are right.

 

 

 

I actually think that could be viable. Another solution would be to have damage and health abilities scale, but I doubt I'll see that anytime soon.

What do you mean by health scaling?

 

Isnt that hat armor does?

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

What do you mean by health scaling?

 

Isnt that hat armor does?

 

I meant scaling with enemy level.

[Azawarau]

I meant scaling with enemy level.

Im a bit against that

 

Itd just make lvl 50 and 500 the same thing

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Im a bit against that

 

Itd just make lvl 50 and 500 the same thing

 

Which it already is for most utility abilities. It would make level 50 and 500 similar only for abilities. Weapons would still lose effectiveness.

 

(Off topic, so I'm spoilering)

Although to be honest I'm not a huge fan of enemy level scaling at all. I accept that it would probably be too much work to rebalance the mods and everything if it were to be removed, but I think it would make our builds more diverse if cramming damage mods onto weapons wasn't the best way to keep them viable at high level.

[Azawarau]

Which it already is for most utility abilities. It would make level 50 and 500 similar only for abilities. Weapons would still lose effectiveness.

 

(Off topic, so I'm spoilering)

Although to be honest I'm not a huge fan of enemy level scaling at all. I accept that it would probably be too much work to rebalance the mods and everything if it were to be removed, but I think it would make our builds more diverse if cramming damage mods onto weapons wasn't the best way to keep them viable at high level.

I was speaking about HP specifically there but powers are much the same aside from utilities

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I was speaking about HP specifically there but powers are much the same aside from utilities

 

I might be misunderstanding your point, but what I'm saying is that with scaling for both damage and health abilities they can have similar viability to utilities even at high levels.

[007-Creed]

I highly agree, with you. I posted a topic addressing this, why is Valkyr more of a tank frame than anything else? It doesn't always matter about the skills either. Valkyr has good and bad skills, as well as Rhino. Rhino USED to be my favourite frame until they nerfed him, now I feel like Excalibur has stronger survivability than Rhino Prime does. I also agree to the fact that she is a BERSERKER frame so she should have less health since her Ult makes her rampage. I'm kind of thinking like they should just switch their stats a little...

She has the lowest shields of all frames (150 rank 30) and u want to lower her health which is basically her only hit points, that doesnt make any sense. Her survivability is armor + health and as u said is a beserker frame so needs tankiness for her melee not just hysteria. Forget about lowering her stats besides we are talking about rhino here not valkyr

[Azawarau]

I might be misunderstanding your point, but what I'm saying is that with scaling for both damage and health abilities they can have similar viability to utilities even at high levels.

Define higher levels for me?

 

I highly agree, with you. I posted a topic addressing this, why is Valkyr more of a tank frame than anything else? It doesn't always matter about the skills either. Valkyr has good and bad skills, as well as Rhino. Rhino USED to be my favourite frame until they nerfed him, now I feel like Excalibur has stronger survivability than Rhino Prime does. I also agree to the fact that she is a BERSERKER frame so she should have less health since her Ult makes her rampage. I'm kind of thinking like they should just switch their stats a little...

You mean iron skin god mode nerf?

 

Or the whole stomp thing?

[OHyeahWF]

Valkry had a hard time in save 3 of the teammate that bleeding or kill enemy to protect the target. 

But Rhino is able to stomp enemy, prevent them from hitting the target while saving teammate.

That just a random scenario, but it also prove that Rhino is still a nice warframe. 

I agree that should break the shield then only hit iron skin.
 

[Azawarau]

Valkry had a hard time in save 3 of the teammate that bleeding or kill enemy to protect the target. 

But Rhino is able to stomp enemy, prevent them from hitting the target while saving teammate.

That just a random scenario, but it also prove that Rhino is still a nice warframe. 

I agree that should break the shield then only hit iron skin.

 

The only time this is really true is on high level enemies that even valkyr cant tank for more than a few seconds

 

Rhino stomp definitely wins out though

[(PSN)Veg1ta]

I kinda like the idea of changing iron skin to how snow globe works, a set amount of duration health with 4 sec invulnerable state and incoming damage absorbed and added to the health pool for the remainder of the duration. Would effectively stop low tier spaming of the ability but also make rhino more durable for late game.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Define higher levels for me?

 

I would say as early as level 30. Granted, some abilities that needed a tweak would still need one. Mag's Crush is still too weak, while Nova's M-Prime is still too strong.

[Azawarau]

I would say as early as level 30. Granted, some abilities that needed a tweak would still need one. Mag's Crush is still too weak, while Nova's M-Prime is still too strong.

I think even crush is still viable at lvl 30 with efficiency

 

The range makes up for its lack of damage

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I think even crush is still viable at lvl 30 with efficiency

 

The range makes up for its lack of damage

 

I think with efficiency everything is viable. Corrupted efficiency needs a massive decrease in its effectiveness. And Crush only has mid-level range with no sort of stun (I just checked the wiki to make sure this was true, and it's range is only 18 meters).

[Azawarau]

I think with efficiency everything is viable. Corrupted efficiency needs a massive decrease in its effectiveness. And Crush only has mid-level range with no sort of stun (I just checked the wiki to make sure this was true, and it's range is only 18 meters).

Arcane helmet + max range and efficiency make it go very far

 

The upcoming mods changes may change this even more

Edited October 23, 2014 by Azawarau

[Kruglov]

If Iron Skin is to be nerfed, it needs to also be given a buff that benefits teammates that aren't the Rhino using the ability.

 

As of right now the biggest problem with Iron Skin is that it ONLY benefits Rhino and none of his teammates.

And despite the ability saying its meant to draw aggro, it doesn't.

 

If the ability is nerfed to no longer be free damage mitigation, it also needs to be improved so it helps others.

Because as it is, it's Rhino's only really unique ability.

 

Stomp is done better by other frames (Oberon particularly).

Roar is done better by Nova and even Nekros to an extent.

Charge is done better by Excalibur and Hydroid.

 

Iron Skin is what makes the Rhino unique.

But it doesn't benefit anyone but him.

Make it so it benefits everyone, THEN it can be nerfed.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Arcane helmet + max range and efficiency make it go very far

 

The upcoming mods changes may change this even more

We're getting off topic so spoiler.

Even with the arcane helmet, it still has only 22.5 meters of range before power mods. That's only around 2.5 meters longer than most of the abilities in the game, and most of those abilities do more damage to enemies, are casted more quickly, or have some type of stun. Rhino's Stomp has a longer range and does all of these. And Rhino isn't intended to be a caster frame like Mag.

But on point, you didn't give your opinion on scaling Iron Skin.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

If Iron Skin is to be nerfed, it needs to also be given a buff that benefits teammates that aren't the Rhino using the ability.

 

As of right now the biggest problem with Iron Skin is that it ONLY benefits Rhino and none of his teammates.

And despite the ability saying its meant to draw aggro, it doesn't.

 

If the ability is nerfed to no longer be free damage mitigation, it also needs to be improved so it helps others.

Because as it is, it's Rhino's only really unique ability.

 

Stomp is done better by other frames (Oberon particularly).

Roar is done better by Nova and even Nekros to an extent.

Charge is done better by Excalibur and Hydroid.

 

Iron Skin is what makes the Rhino unique.

But it doesn't benefit anyone but him.

Make it so it benefits everyone, THEN it can be nerfed.

 

Rhino isn't supposed to be a caster. Because of his higher ability to survival than those frames you mentioned, it's okay that his abilities aren't as strong. And I also dispute that Stomp is done better by Oberon.

[Azawarau]

We're getting off topic so spoiler.

Even with the arcane helmet, it still has only 22.5 meters of range before power mods. That's only around 2.5 meters longer than most of the abilities in the game, and most of those abilities do more damage to enemies, are casted more quickly, or have some type of stun. Rhino's Stomp has a longer range and does all of these. And Rhino isn't intended to be a caster frame like Mag.

But on point, you didn't give your opinion on scaling Iron Skin.

I did earlier

 

You read it and replied

 

Unless you mean something else

[Kruglov]

Rhino isn't supposed to be a caster. Because of his higher ability to survival than those frames you mentioned, it's okay that his abilities aren't as strong. And I also dispute that Stomp is done better by Oberon.

 

All frames are casters.

 

The reason his abilities arent as strong is BECAUSE Iron Skin allows him to stand in a group of enemies to murder them.

If that ability is nerfed then it needs to be given the same treatment that Oberon's reckoning, hallowed ground, and smite received where it benefits the entire team.

Iron Skin has no teammate buffs nor enemy debuffs.

If it loses its tanking ability than it needs to be compensated with a buff for his friends or a debuff for enemies he faces.

Otherwise you are just relegating Rhino to the trashcan because his only scaling ability will be Roar.

 

 

Rhino is very similar to the Soldier from Team Fortress.

He's good at alot of things but he doesn't specialize in anything in particular.

His tankyness is his ace in the hole.

If that gets removed (and it should be because it IS far too easy) it needs to be made beneficial as well.

You can't just outright nerf a power as selfish as Iron Skin.

It needs to be reworked.