DrBorris Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 (edited) Melee 2.0 is great, melee is now finally a viable alternative to guns… sort of. Without some melee frame that gets those 4x crits, melee falls off pretty quick as enemy level rises. I don’t think that the solutions is to buff the melee weapons themselves (for the most part), but to buff the stances. Make the combos rewarding, and use Crimson Dervish as the example. Melee DPS should always be higher than a gun’s DPS. That is the only way to keep melee viable. Buffing the stances will make it so there is at least a hint of skill required to pull off some major numbers. These buffs only involve adding multipliers and special effects, this is not about changing any animations. These changes are suggested based on the animations. I used every stance for quite some time, trying to see all of the nuances in each of them and give a multiplier or additional bonus where it seemed to fit. However, I am not a master of every stance. If you main a stance and disagree with something I wrote, please say something so I can make this as complete a list of changes as possible. Edit: You do not have to read the whole thing and process every single stance, just look at whatever stances you know. So if you main an Orthos with Bleeding Willow, comment on the suggestions i made for that. I spent too much time finding all of this stuff out, i am not asking anyone else to. I am not going to go in depth into explaining the working of each of the stances currently, I am assuming that you use whatever stance you are reading about so you understand what I mean when I say something like third hit of flash fury. If you want to see in more depth on how the combos currently work. http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Stance_Mods Each Stance Mod by Weapon Type Claws Malicious Raptor These are claws, they should have much more slashy (slash proc), as a slash proc ignores armor, I think throwing a bunch in there (along with a few more multipliers) will be plenty. Jagged Gash: Well, it would seem that the second hit uses both claws, it would be logical that it does 2x damage right? Also, it is directly impaling an enemy, so a slash proc would be good too. Wicked Slash: Keep the second slash impact proc (I would stager too if someone backhanded me like that), add a slash proc to the third strike, a 3x multiplier to the fourth strike and slash proc, and a slash proc for the fifth hit. Venging Thrash: When I first saw this combo, I was kind of scared. Due to the time taken to do the third hit, I don’t think a 3x multiplier and a slash proc would be too much. The headbut on the fifth hit looks more like it would knock someone down than just stagger them. So, add a blast proc to the fifth hit, this will open a beautiful opportunity for the finisher. Lethal Clash: the corent 3x of this is almost great, but after watching it SLASH up the body of an enemy three times, I think that another slash proc makes sense. And for that third hit… I don’t know why DE did not do anything for this other than a slam, by the fact that a Warframe is throwing their entire body weight into the ground, Venka first, a 5x multiplier and slash proc would not be too much (and the current slam). One Point (air attack): no multiplier, but if someone jumped on me with those blades I think that I would have some profuse bleeding (so add a slash proc). Roaring Drums (finisher): keep the current 5x damage, but also throw in a slash proc. Daggers My personal opinion on daggers is that they should be proc monsters, so I will be using that as inspiration for a lot of this. Homing Fang DE did good on this stance, I don’t have many changes to make. Lashing Forward: Well, DE did well on this one, double damage on the first hit is great and the slash proc on the fourth is also. I am only going to add a 100% proc. Cutting Arches: hmm, same as last combo, good job DE, 3x damage on last hit is great. Again though, add the 100% proc on the finisher along with the 3x damage. Life Eater: Same as currently, 4x damage on fourth hit, 2x on fifth and sixth, but add that 100% proc to all in its range to the sixth attack. Relentless Point (finisher): well, I think daggers should be focused on proc… except for finishers. Give Daggers 8x damage when you finish off an enemy. Pointed Wind This is the one stance I cannot manage to get, when I finally do, I will put in my feedback. And from what I have heard about this stance, it probably need buffs more than any other. Dual Daggers Contrary to single daggers, Dual Daggers should be all damage. Due to lack of range, giving dual daggers the highest single target DPS would not be too much. Gnashing Payara This is the, “hit slow but hit hard” stance. Cheetah’s Guile: Put a 3x multiplier on the first two hits and a 4x on the last. Flash Furry: 3x on first two strikes, 6x on fourth (last) strike with slash proc. Pincer Strike: this is one of the hardest combos to pull off because dual daggers hit very fast and this is a two part combo. The first part of this combo is the same as Flash Fury, so keep those changes. But the final finisher on this is not easy to pull off and is very limited in range so… here come the big one… give the last hit 10x damage and a slash proc. Because it takes so much skill and time to do this (after testing every other stance, this is the hardest combo, and the only two part one), whatever enemy that is unfortunate to be in your way should die. Sinking Talon First I must say, holy **** this stance is fast. Lashing Panther: 2x on the second strike and 3x on third strike with a slash proc. Rising Lion: Due to being kicked in the face, enemies should get a blast proc if hit on the third hit along with 3x multiplier. Due to the fourth hit taking about the time it takes to do three normal hits, a 5x multiplier with along with a slash proc (already has) would make sense. Dual Swords Crossing Snakes East to West: Give the third strike a 2x multiplier (it is a quick jab)… that is it, this is a very boring combo. Northern Coil: give the third and fourth strikes a 3x multiplier and the fifth strike a 4x multiplier. Lacerating Leap: give the third strike a 3x versus the current 2x multiplier to make this stance a bit more competitive. Twin Fang: give the third strike a slash proc (it is ripping the blade straight up the gut of an enemy), the fourth hit a 4x multiplier, and the last hit a 3x multiplier and slash proc. Swirling Tiger Some of the current multipliers in this stance are pretty complicated, just check the wiki for info on some of that stuff. Raking Flesh: Give the third strike a 2x multiplier (it is a jab like Crossing) and the fourth strike a 3x multiplier due to being so slow. Winding Claws: Keep the complicatedness of the third and fourth strike, add a 3x multiplier to the fifth strike, and a 5x multiplier to the last strike. Also on the last strike, have the knockdown radius be 3x the normal slam knockdown radius of the weapon. Dancing Hunter: the third and fourth hits of this stance are more like 4 hits each, but their slower speed makes a 2x multiplier sound reasonable. Then change the impact of the fifth strike into a blast proc (looks more like tripping enemies than just hitting) and give it a 3x multiplier. Fists Fracturing Wind Gaining Humility: The current impact proc on the third strike is good (gotta love that backhand), but also give the fourth strike an impact proc. Rising Doom: Add a 3x multiplier to the fourth hit (jump then slam attack) Trailing Doom: Ok, let’s complicate some things. Give the first two hits of the third strike 2x the crit chance, then give the last hit a blast proc and 3x damage. Rolling Gale: keep the impact proc of the third hit, but also throw in a 2x multiplier. Then give the fourth hit a 3x multiplier along with its slam. Seismic Palm Quaking Touch: DE got this one right, keep the 2x multiplier on the first hit and the slam on the third strike. Echoing Hands: Keep the impact on the third hit, give the fourth hit a 2x multiplier, then have the shockwave from the fifth strike give all enemies in range an impact proc. Sudden Rockfall: Give the second strike a 2x multiplier, have this shockwave on the third strike put a blast proc on enemies, then give the fourth strike a 5x multiplier along with its slam. Erupting Vulcan: Give all three strikes an impact proc and the third strike a 3x multiplier. (This is the most limited range combo, it is all for single target damage output with a side of spamming. Glaive Gleaming Talon The multipliers of this stance are great, the only problem is that even with the 3x multiplier in Mercury Vortex, it is doing less damage than a charge throw. This is especially seen in Silver reach. This combo is a pain in the donkey to pull off, and all it does in the end is do a wee bit more damage than a charge throw in very limited range. To make the glaive combos actually effective compared to just throwing it, whenever a thrown melee is out of the hand of the Tenno, its damage is based on its charge attack damage. I will depict if an attack is out of the hand of the Tenno with a * Ruin: Glaives are not made for normal slashing attacks, no need for any buffs here. Silver Reach: Give a 2x multiplier to the fourth* and fifth* attack and a 3x multiplier on the sixth* attack. Give the holy seventh* attack a 4x multiplier, slash proc, and a mini radial blind. The range of the radial blind would be nowhere near the range of Excalibro’s or Mirage’s, but will stun a decent sized group and more importantly open them up for monster crits. If you are not a fan of that, maybe just a blast proc to all enemies in a decent sized range. Mercury Vortex: Give the second* strike an impact proc, the third* hit a 2x multiplier, and the fourth a 3x multiplier. On a side note for the Vortex part of the fourth hit, I found that its range is not that great compared to even some other melee weapons. So, maybe have it spiral outward to about 2x the current distance by the time it finishes the second rotation (this last part is not that important, but would make Mercury Vortex a bit more useful for non-infested). Oh, almost forgot, I see no reason why Kestrel does less charge damage then Glaive. A buff to 105 charge damage would bring them up to a level where they are equal. Hammers I know a heavy melee buff is coming, but maybe this is all that is needed. Hammers should have the hardest hits in the game (sorry axes/heavy swords) and reward those who complete the combos with very big numbers. Crushing Ruin Tidal Force: Hiting an enemy on the side would probably stagger them, so add an impact proc to the first hit. Then the second and third hit need an impact proc in a small range. So, enemies will pretty much just never get a shot at you when you are hitting them with a hammer (which makes sense). Shattered Village: Here is the biggest melee numbers in Warframe. Same as Tidal Force, give all hits an impact proc. Give the third hit a 2x multiplier, then the fourth hit a 3x multiplier, then the spin of the fifth hit a 6x multiplier (because of dat windup) and give that marvelous explosion… a 10x multiplier, 4x crit multiplier (so when you crit, you see the most glorious numbers), and blast proc that literally blasts enemies away (and within a decent range of the explosion). So, anything in the way of your great hammer will die and their corpse will fly to Timbuktu. The time it takes to pull off this combo is its balance, but once you are done everything is dead. Shattering Storm Rising Thunder: For starters give all hits an impact proc. The give the second hit a 2x multiplier and an impact proc in a radius. Falling Rock: This combo is hilarious. Give that beautiful first explosion a 4x damage multiplier, 4x crit multiplier, and a decent range. Then give the second explosion an 8x damage multiplier, again with the 4x crit multiplier, and the explosion radius again (both come with a blast proc). Now that I am done with this part… I think that this is all the buff that Hammers need. Heavy Swords/Axes Cleaving Whirlwind Crowd Fall: Third hit gets an impact proc in a range and a 2x multiplier. Broken Bull: We all know this one, I kind of want to say to give it a slash porc… but that would be a bit OP so lets just stick with the 4x damage. Sundering Tusk: Give the fourth hit(s) a 50% crit chance and 50% chance for a slash proc, then give the last hit a 4x multiplier and slash proc. Drifting Stampede: Give the third hit a 3x multiplier. The quick downward slice of the last (fifth) hit is just asking for a crit so… 100% crit chance, 2x multiplier, and a slash proc. Mountain’s Chisel (air attack): I don’t know, maybe it would make sense that if a giant blade was falling on you that you would profusely bleed (give a slash proc). Rending Crane This stance needs some love, it is always looked down on by Cleaving. Skull Splitter: Give the first and second hit a 2x multiplier and an impact proc in a radius. Landing Dragon: Give the fourth hit a 4x multiplier and a slash proc. Lashing Tempest: Give the fourth hit a blast proc. Then give the spinning part of the fifth hit a 4x multiplier (to match Cleaving). And now for some fanciness, have that knockdown thing have a mini radial blind. Not too much range, but something that will blind all enemies near you so they are open to those 4x crits. Rampaging Boar: Give that running part of the fourth hit a blast proc (whoever is in your way gets knocked down) and the swing a 3x multiplier. Machetes Well, most can agree that this stance is terrible. Not as much in that it is low damage as that it is slow and the movements are not very effective. But… it is a machete, the combos do make sense. The way I propose buffing Machete stances is to throw in as many slash procs as possible, well, except for the Prova (Vandal). So, anytime I say slash proc, change it to electric proc when using the Prova (Vandal). Sundering Weave Cresting Surf: Start things out with a slash proc on the first hit, a 2x multiplier on the second hit, the third strike is a repeate of the first so… slash proc, give the fourth hit a 2x multiplier and a slash proc, then give the fifth strike just a 2x multiplier (as it is a repeat of the second hit). Riding Current: Give the fourth hit a 3x multiplier and slash proc along with the current slam. Coming Tide: give the sixth hit a 4x multiplier and slash proc. Flash Flood: Give the fourth hit a 2x multiplier and a slash proc, the fifth hit (spinning) a 3x multiplier, and the sixth strike a 3x multiplier, slash proc, and the current slam. Nikanas For the most part, the Nikanas do not need that much, they are already very good melees. However, some additions to each of the stances could differentiate them more. Decisive Judgement Due to being the slowest of the stances, some more multipliers will be thrown in. Final Verdict: a 1.5x multiplier to each of the three strikes. Consent Decree: Keep the current 2x on the third strike, but add a 3x multiplier on the fourth. Swift Retribution: Give a 2x multiplier and slash proc to the second strike. Silent Acumen: Give the third strike a 2x multiplier (slower speed), then give the third and fourth a 2x multiplier and a 50% slash proc chance. Blind Justice I see that DE did not make this stance weak, it almost could use some nerfs (but nobody likes nerfs right?) Zatos Creed: Why DE gave the third strike a multiplier, but not the fourth I do not know. Keep the current multiplier on the third strike (2x), and give the fourth strike a 3x multiplier (it looks like a finisher and has very limited range, I think that makes sense). Guiding Light: The slash proc DE gave the second strike (the Slash Dash knock-off) makes sense, then give the fifth strike 2x damage (it is a lunge) Heeding Call: Just give a 3x multiplier on the last strike (sixth) Destined Path: I am so confused by this combo, I have nothing to add here. Tranquil Cleave Windless Cut: Give the third strike a 2x multiplier. Breathless Lunge: Keep the 1/3x damage on the second strike, but add a slash proc. The 1.4x for third and 1.5x for fourth are fine. Beyond Reproach: The fourth strike could get a buff to 2x, and a 3x multiplier along with the slash proc for the fifth would compensate for the time taken to pull off the stance. Hook and Eye: Just give the fifth strike a slash proc to make it equal with Justice’s Guiding Light. Polearms Bleeding Willow Lethal Gust: Give the first strike a 2x multiplier and the fourth a 1.5x. Drifting Steel: Buff the multiplier of the third and fourth strikes to 3x and give a blast proc to only enemies hit by the down thrust. Then give a 3x multiplier and slash proc to the fifth strike. Shimmering Blight Slashing Wing: Just a 2x multiplier on the third strike. Howling Gale: give the third strike a 3x multiplier and the fourth strike a slash proc, 2x damage, and keep the current impact proc. Scythes Reaping Spiral Reclamation: Why DE gave this a 1.25x multiplier on the fourth strike I do not know. I would just give it a 3x multiplier on the third strike. Abyssal Automation: Hive the fourth strike a 3x multiplier and have the fifth strike have a 2x multiplier and slash proc (it hits the enemy five times, 2x and slash is enough to make it worthwhile). Eternal Nocturne: Give the second strike a 2x multiplier and slash proc, then give the fourth strike a 3x multiplier and the blast proc it currently has. Mountain’s Chisel (have I seen this name before) (air attack): Give it a bleed proc… it is rather self-explanatory. Stalking Fan Many Tears: Give the third hit a 2x multiplier Dying Light: Give the third strike a 2x multiplier and the fourth a 4x multiplier. Shadow Wing: Give the second strike a blast proc, slash proc on the downward slice, and a 2x multiplier. Give the third strike a 3x multiplier and an impact proc. Then give the fifth strike a 4x multiplier and a slash proc. Sparring Every hit gets an impact proc… for logic reasons. Brutal Tide This stance is a pain to try to see each of the movements. It has higher multipliers than Grim Fury due to being much slower. Inferno: 3x on the last punch of the first strike. Give 2x damage to the leg kick of the second strike and a blast proc and 3x damage for the low punch. Give the third strike 4x damage. Rushing Fire: give 4x damage to the third strike along with a blast proc, then a 5x multiplier to the fourth strike with a blast proc. Grim Fury Bright Blaze: 2x damage on the second, third, and fourth strike. Blast proc on the third. Burning Desire: Blast proc on the third strike. 3x damage on the fourth strike. Fanning Flame: 2x damage on fifth strike and blast proc. Staves Flailing Branch Battered Thread: 2x on third hit Rising Falls: Give the third hit 3x damage and a blast proc. give the fourth hit 4x damage. Autumn Leaf: Give the second hit 3x damage and a blast proc, then give the third hit 4x damage and a blast proc. Clashing Forest Skyward Limb: Give the first hit an impact proc. Give the third strike 3x damage. Battering Roots: Have the third strike do 2x damage and proc impact. Give the strike of the melee 4x damage for the fourth and fifth strikes. Have the kick on the fifth strike do 3x damage. Resolute Fury: Give the second strike an impact proc. Then give the third strike 3x damage and a blast proc. Sword and Shield I am not sure if it was DE’s plan to make Silva and Aegis weak, but this is a case where the weapon itself also would need a buff. (Unless DE wants to keep it a lower tier weapon) Eleventh Storm Devouring Beast: Give the fourth strike 2x damage. Striking Thunder: Give the fifth strike 3x damage and a blast proc. Give the eighth strike 2x damage. Diamond Dues: Give the third strike an impact proc. Give the fourth strike 4x damage and a 100% proc chance. Bide and Bleed: Give the second strike 3x damage and the third strike 2x damage. Then give the fourth strike 4x damage and a 100% proc chance. Swords Crimson Dervish Crimson Orbit: Well, I think that the 3x multiplier on all three hits can stay. Twisting Fury: Give the fourth hit a 2x multiplier and keep the blast proc. Coiling Impale: Give the fourth hit 2x damage. Then give the fifth hit 5x damage and a bleed proc. Iron Phoenix Wings and Beak: Give the third strike a 3x multiplier along with the puncture proc. Taking Flight: Give the second hit an impact proc. Then the third and fourth hits a 2x multiplier. Then give the fifth hit a 4x multiplier and a mini Radial Blind. Just enough to blind the group of enemies around you and open up the opportunity for the stealth multiplier. Tonfas Gemini Cross Cold Vendetta: Give the fourth strike 2x damage and a slash proc Baleful Sin: Give the third strike a slash proc. The give the fourth hit a 3x multiplier, and the fifth hit a 4x multiplier. Vagrant Blight: Currently each hit during the fifth, sixth, and seventh hit have a .33 damage multiplier. I recommend buffing to a .5x multiplier and a guaranteed slash proc. The give the eighth strike 5x damage. Blind Tormentor: Give the fourth strike a 2x multipler. Then give the fifth hit a 4x multiplier and slash proc. Whips Burning Wasp Buzzing Sting: Give the third hit a 3x multiplier and keep the current 100% proc. Sparking Torture: Keep the 2x multiplier on the third strike, but buff the fourth strike to 3x. Guided Claw: Keep the 2x on the second strike. Then give the third strike a 5x multiplier and keep the 100% proc. Coiling Viper Whistling Wind: Give the third hit a 3x multiplier and 100% proc. Tumbling King: Give the third hit a 2x multiplier. The give the fourth hit a 3x multiplier and blast proc. I would like to thank the Grineer on Terminus for allowing me to practice all of my stances in their ship. Again, please give any feedback that you have. Edited October 19, 2014 by DrBorris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

APBladeX Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Melee 3.0 Also, I don't see why there's 3 Nikana stances, 2 being rare and 1 being uncommon. I say split Decisive Judgement's combos into Tranquil Cleave and Blind Justice to provide the consistency that is in the other weapon sets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Apoc001 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 (edited) actually it makes perfect sense that the axe class is the hardest hitting melees compared to hammers, because they are bladed, the force of impact is focused, while a hammer would have to have more mass to deliver an equal amount of force, think of a 3 pound sword, it can cut a head right off, now think how much bigger a hammer would have to be to deliver the same result Edited October 19, 2014 by Apoc001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

DrBorris Posted October 19, 2014 Author Share Posted October 19, 2014 actually it makes perfect sense that the axe class is the hardest hitting melees compared to hammers, because they are bladed, the force of impact is focused, while a hammer would have to have more mass to deliver an equal amount of force, think of a 3 pound sword, it can cut a head right off, now think how much bigger a hammer would have to be to deliver the same result I made Hammers harder hitting due to having a slower attack speed and both hammer stnaces have "wind-ups" for some of their combos. Thus, i gave them the most damage. Don't forget... DE logic =/= logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

xkillo32 Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 Melee 3.0 Also, I don't see why there's 3 Nikana stances, 2 being rare and 1 being uncommon. I say split Decisive Judgement's combos into Tranquil Cleave and Blind Justice to provide the consistency that is in the other weapon sets. rebecca wanted it as her bday present Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Wurdyburd Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 (edited) Tbh there's so much information and numbers here, it'd be hard to point out what's good, what's bad, and what's REALLY bad without sitting down for an hour and testing all the animations just to see if what you wrote made sense. I will say this though: on the Venka, you seem insistent that it have reliable slash proc. I question, what actually are the Venka? Three blades side by side. This means that, short of wielding one with enough force to rival the weight of a dumptruck, it'd be hard to make all three blades cleave, on account that the pressure is distributed across three sharp edges instead of one [a sword]. Furthermore, sharp blades simply aren't designed to slash through armour; in fact, plate armour was designed precisely to defend against slashing weapons. It's unlikely that [for example] the Grineer, with their space steel, would be susceptible to slashing weapons. Finally, due to the large rectangular size of the Venka, it's unlikely that any of their blades will find a weak spot between enemy armour; only the one combo, where the Venka are repeatedly stabbed into the stomach, may find purchase, and that'd be a puncture wound, not a slashing one. I get that you want to make the Venka more powerful with armour-negating slash proc, but it honestly doesn't make much sense. Edited October 19, 2014 by Wurdyburd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

bigbirtha Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 you do realize that in a heavy armor situation blades are almost if not completely worthless, sure it can cut a head off but the enemies in the game aren't running around naked. Why do you think things like maces and hammers were made for war? just to look cool? crushing and puncturing were the only way medieval warriors could effectively take out heavy armor people. there's even documented proof that they would hold longswords by the blade and use the pommel and hand guard to fight in heavy armor situations. So don't call it DE logic when in reality it is downright proven through years of blood shed. [History lesson from your favorite nerd] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

DrBorris Posted October 19, 2014 Author Share Posted October 19, 2014 (edited) Tbh there's so much information and numbers here, it'd be hard to point out what's good, what's bad, and what's REALLY bad without sitting down for an hour and testing all the animations just to see if what you wrote made sense. I will say this though: on the Venka, you seem insistent that it have reliable slash proc. I question, what actually are the Venka? Three blades side by side. This means that, short of wielding one with enough force to rival the weight of a dumptruck, it'd be hard to make all three blades cleave, on account that the pressure is distributed across three sharp edges instead of one [a sword]. Furthermore, sharp blades simply aren't designed to slash through armour; in fact, plate armour was designed precisely to defend against slashing weapons. It's unlikely that [for example] the Grineer, with their space steel, would be susceptible to slashing weapons. Finally, due to the large rectangular size of the Venka, it's unlikely that any of their blades will find a weak spot between enemy armour; only the one combo, where the Venka are repeatedly stabbed into the stomach, may find purchase, and that'd be a puncture wound, not a slashing one. I get that you want to make the Venka more powerful with armour-negating slash proc, but it honestly doesn't make much sense. As for the first part, I understand completely, I will not admit how much time i spent with the stances because I am not proud of it. And for the second, remember to use Warframe Logic. Just watching Venka's animations you can tell that they are slash focused (most attacks are slashing in someway). The fact that Venka are supposed to be slash is also supported by its physical damage stats (heavily favoring slash damage). While IRL Venka may not be as slashy as an axe, there needs to be some other standards set for the Warframe world. Otherwise, the great sword will always be better, the machine gun will always be better. The trick is to bring all weapons to a similar damage level, but keep the nuances of each individual weapon type. Edit: apply my second point to bigbertha's post also Edited October 19, 2014 by DrBorris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

APBladeX Posted October 19, 2014 Share Posted October 19, 2014 rebecca wanted it as her bday present She'd still have her "present", just one less nikana stance for consistency. Blind Justice and Tranquil Cleave would stay, but have combos from Decisive Judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

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