Archwing - Free Movement

[PsychedelicSnake]

Steve: "One of the decision we made early on which was a bit controversial was – I’m not sure if you ever played Descent? – you could bank and what was “up” could change. The first version of Archwing had you flying around and nothing was [predefined as] “up” so you could tilt and then up was to the left. It was super vomit-inducing and went one step too far into being uber hardcore."

 

This is Steve's explanation (in a recent interview about Update 15 and Archwing) about movement in space via the Archwings. In case it is not clear, he is stating that players are locked in the way they move, and cannot tilt or bank in a way to where there is no true "Up" or "Down." As it stands, Archwing has clear directions. Up is up, Down is Down, and so on.

 

The reason for this, Steve states, is because it became disorienting for people to be able to move so freely.

 

While I understand the reasons for this change, I have to ask... Why is it not an option that can be toggled? Why not have it be an option, which can be turned on and off in the Options Menu, that changes how the Player moves in the Archwings? There are several games that have this option, the most recent of which I played being Saints Row: The Third and its sequel. Players in Co-op could have differing movement when in flight mode, and there was absolutely no issues arising from it.

 

I understand Steve's reasoning, but why limit it so much? I sincerely hope there is an option to toggle on "Directionless Flight." I'm excited for Archwing, but personally, having no free movement like you normally would in space would make Archwing feel far too similar to the rest of the game.

 

In my opinion, it wouldn't feel like I was actually flying around in space. It would feel like flying around in a space.

 

EDIT: In case I was unclear, I'm stating there should be an Option, obviously located within the Options Menu, that would allow players to individually choose between flying with a "Predefined Up" and between "Free Movement". Thus, players that would get disoriented would have their option, and players that want completely free movement will have theirs as well. It's a compromise I am genuinely shocked DE seems to have not made.

 

EDIT 2:

Pretty much this. If an Archwing PvP mode is added, I would have absolutely no problems shifting to the "Predefined Up" movement set if it was locked into that in PvP mode.

 

While in PvE, however, I am truly baffled at why there is no option for players to choose what they want.

 

Edited October 19, 2014 by PsychedelicSnake

[RavenousPartyLibrarian]

Wouldn't it be somewhat weird in multiplayer if some players had a defined up and others did not?

 

What about enemies? Would they stick to facing "upwards"?

[PsychedelicSnake]

Wouldn't it be somewhat weird in multiplayer if some players had a defined up and others did not?

 

What about enemies? Would they stick to facing "upwards"?

I've given one example about how it would not be strange to function with differing movement.

 

As for enemies, in all likelihood (similarly to other games I have played), they would fly with a "Predefined Up", whereas the Players could choose what they want to do.

 

I suppose another example I could make is Halo: Reach, during it's Space Flight section of the Campaign. It worked very well there, and I see no reason as to why it cannot work here.

[Sifu]

We`ll just see how "free" this movement will be. I was totally fine with Saints Row model too, maybe DE cares too much of epileptic warnings and people with other such problems. Its a good intention, but it should not cripple the game for others.

 

I`m totaly agree with this post - movement in space should be free in all directions.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Vicious_D

[Kazzamo]

Players with no defined up vs those with a defined up could move in ways a defined up player can't. It'd give them an advantage should a PvP mode get added.

[ZizWing]

I'd really like this option as well, it gives you more freedom to do some awesome moves and just feel like you're really in space and not "stuck on a rails" as some people like to refer to. Also if you're used to this kind of movement it can actually fell better. It's kind of hard to explain but I hope you get me :D

[ZizWing]

Players with no defined up vs those with a defined up could move in ways a defined up player can't. It'd give them an advantage should a PvP mode get added.

The thing is... there is no PvP mode (yet) and if there would be one in the future it could just be forced to have a certain movement system anyway.

[noveltyhero]

Take this from a fairly good pilot in a lot of games (specifically PS2 and BF3/4) with fast paced flights:

 

I really dislike this change and I hope an option does come as you mentioned. For the record, it is not vomit inducing at all, it allows you to dodge projectiles and move through certain spaces without changing your position on the X,Y,Z axis but rather changing the rotation on those axis.

It also creates this easy to learn and hard to master scenario where the best of the players will be flying behind and through incredibly tight spaces and give you something to long for.

 

Basically, I agree with you Snake, I played SR3 as well and the option did in fact not break anything and make the game more enjoyable for both casual and hardcore players.

[PsychedelicSnake]

The thing is... there is no PvP mode (yet) and if there would be one in the future it could just be forced to have a certain movement system anyway.

Pretty much this. If an Archwing PvP mode is added, I would have absolutely no problems shifting to the "Predefined Up" movement set if it was locked into that in PvP mode.

 

While in PvE, however, I am truly baffled at why there is no option for players to choose what they want.

[Zagrax]

I wouldn't mind a toggle option for it, so people can have free movement or just keep it with defined "up" and would add immersion to people used to such flight mechanics.

[noveltyhero]

Players with no defined up vs those with a defined up could move in ways a defined up player can't. It'd give them an advantage should a PvP mode get added.

PVP=/=PVE, please let's not cripple the Archwing for such a silly nonesense, even in PVP you want to be better? Use the harder mode, simple.

[Kalenath]

The first Descent had a version of 'no predefined up'. And it had a LOT of players puking.

 

Descent: Freespace had a predefined up for that reason.

 

I played both and had no trouble with either. My best friend couldn't play the original, but loved the sequels.

 

I would support a 'toggle' function.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Kalenath

[PsychedelicSnake]

The first Descent had a version of 'no predefined up'. And it had a LOT of players puking.

 

Descent: Freespace had a predefined up for that reason.

Exactly. Two different versions for different players. So that is why I am asking why there is not an option for those that want free movement and those that want something less disorienting. It pleases both sides with no issues as far as I can see.

[Kalenath]

Exactly. Two different versions for different players. So that is why I am asking why there is not an option for those that want free movement and those that want something less disorienting. It pleases both sides with no issues as far as I can see.

 

Yeah, well... We can hope. I WOULD play with no predefined 'up' but then again... I AM pretty hardcore about flight simulators.

 

(I stock barf bags by my desk)

[Deidaku]

Vomit inducing? >_>

 

Ouch 

 

And snake does that mean arching is gonna play out kinda lie a stafox game ( Starfox assault on NGC in particular,  not he on rails missons more the skybox ones)

 

[ZizWing]

I just hope DE reads this and gives us the option to enable it. Maybe only when playing solo, I don't mind! Just having the option to do so would please a bigger audience than it already will. It's basically the same as toggle sprint/zoom or not. It's purely preference and doesn't change anything for other players aside from seeing you upside down or not. Let's hope they look at it from a "preference" vision and not a "equal systems is best" vision.

[PsychedelicSnake]

And snake does that mean arching is gonna play out kinda lie a stafox game ( Starfox assault on NGC in particular,  not he on rails missons more the skybox ones)

 

Essentially, yes. You can move around in space, but you cannot flip on your side or go upside down. Any maneuver you do will ultimately result in you righting yourself to your normal position.

[Archeyef]

I'd like to have a toggle option for this, if possible. I first (that I remember) encountered free movement in Space Engineers, myself, and while it did take a little bit of adjustment, it wasn't too long before I acclimated. It was hardly vomit inducing, for me. I don't think I would have much more trouble with free movement in Warframe, even though it would be faster.

 

Though as I said in another thread, I understand it's an issue for probably a fair few people. So, toggle option, of course with defined up as deault setting, seems like the best compromise, if it's possible.

[Kalenath]

I just hope DE reads this and gives us the option to enable it. Maybe only when playing solo, I don't mind! Just having the option to do so would please a bigger audience than it already will. It's basically the same as toggle sprint/zoom or not. It's purely preference and doesn't change anything for other players aside from seeing you upside down or not. Let's hope they look at it from a "preference" vision and not a "equal systems is best" vision.

 

Just as long as people don't projectile vomit hard enough to break their monitors.

 

You think I JOKE? I am not. I have seen it.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Kalenath

[Entari0]

the idea of a "no true 'up'" mode sort of reminds me of space engineers, where you have and up, down, left, right, forward and backward controls,  but you can also rotate on any axis (x, y, or z). what does this do? it makes it so you have to keep yourself in the frame of reference of your character, regardless of which way gravity is going. the same lateral, vertical, and rotational adjustments can be made in a ship, and this allows for a great amount of maneuverability.

 

under a similar topic, i would like an option to turn off auto breaking, so when you take your finger of the accelerator, you don't instantly stop, but instead keep going with your same velocity you had before taking your finger off. that is called inertial dampening in space engineers, by the way.

[PsychedelicSnake]

I just hope DE reads this and gives us the option to enable it. Maybe only when playing solo, I don't mind! Just having the option to do so would please a bigger audience than it already will. It's basically the same as toggle sprint/zoom or not. It's purely preference and doesn't change anything for other players aside from seeing you upside down or not. Let's hope they look at it from a "preference" vision and not a "equal systems is best" vision.

Having the option to do so is something that should definitely be added. If there isn't one, all I can ask is why on earth DE would limit themselves and their audience in such a way when they can get away with doing both?

[Kalenath]

the idea of a "no true 'up'" mode sort of reminds me of space engineers, where you have and up, down, left, right, forward and backward controls,  but you can also rotate on any axis (x, y, or z). what does this do? it makes it so you have to keep yourself in the frame of reference of your character, regardless of which way gravity is going. the same lateral, vertical, and rotational adjustments can be made in a ship, and this allows for a great amount of maneuverability.

 

under a similar topic, i would like an option to turn off auto breaking, so when you take your finger of the accelerator, you don't instantly stop, but instead keep going with your same velocity you had before taking your finger off. that is called inertial dampening in space engineers, by the way.

 

What you describe has been done in several realistic sims. In ACTUAL space, once something starts going,. it doesn't stop until acted on again. Thrust, something HITS it, etc...

 

The thing is, do you want a GAME or a SIMULATION? BOTH can be fun. But trying to make a game be a simulation rarely works well in my experience as well as vice versa.

 

BAD example? Tom Clancy's HAWX. Billed as a simulation. It isn't even CLOSE to one. It was an arcade shooter with planes.

 

GOOD example? StarLancer and FreeLancer GREAT space games with just enough space flight physics to make them quasi-realistic

Edited October 19, 2014 by Kalenath

[PsychedelicSnake]

Thus far, and reading through a few other Archwing threads that have discussed similar things... I really see no reason why there shouldn't be an option.

[Kalenath]

Thus far, and reading through a few other Archwing threads that have discussed similar things... I really see no reason why there shouldn't be an option.

 

Really depends on how difficult it would be to code.

[PsychedelicSnake]

Really depends on how difficult it would be to code.

Not difficult at all, from what I have gathered. Based on the way Steve was talking, they already had the Free Movement coded in, then they decided to code in Predefined Movement as well. I could be wrong, but since it may already exist within the code, all they may need to do is add the option and the ability to switch via that option.