For The People Who Use No Abilities

[Evanescent]

Cool, now go two hours in Survival by yourself.

 

Really, I'd like to see you try.

The Game isn't balanced around endless missions!

 

Got it, hm?

[Alphafox]

The Game isn't balanced around endless missions!

 

Got it, hm?

The game isn't balanced around anything.

[Kuestenjung]

Everyone is allowed an opinion, DESPITE many posters thinking the contrary.

 

I play with 4 abilities on almost every Warframe. I TRIED running a 'Desecrate' only Nekros and got bored in 3 minutes. Same with the 'press '4' to win' frame builds. But that is just me, not everyone.

 

DE CANNOT please every player. But I DO think this change will benefit most of us.

 

Even if you play with all 4 powers, how exactly do you benefit fron this change, if in case nothing changes for your builds, I only see the downside to this, cause I am playing almost no frame with all 4 powers. I at least polarized 1 ability slot.

[WhiteCr0w]

the crying will end very quickly once people actually use the system. not only do we get more options but our abilities will soon be mode-able in a special way.

 

This. It's not said enough. We don't have all the information coming regarding the changes, but grass is green and people will complain anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if the Syndicate ability mods will allow people to do what they were effectively doing with these 1-2 ability builds, or something similar. DE isn't known for removing styles of play, but either enhancing them or tweaking them. We still have coptering for crying out loud and they have openly supported it.

 

People need to chill.

[SquirmyBurrito]

And whats the point? I can see how that can be fun in solo play, but for teamplay you are limping horse.

 

Um, no. If I can handle solo play without abilities, I am not going to suddenly become useless when extra people are added. If anything, the game becomes even easier.

[Guest]

Even if you play with all 4 powers, how exactly do you benefit fron this change, if in case nothing changes for your builds, I only see the downside to this, cause I am playing almost no frame with all 4 powers. I at least polarized 1 ability slot.

 

People who are currently using three or four abilities will benefit from this change because it will free one or two mod slots that were previously being occupied by said abilities. This means they can now add more mods to the same builds.

[WhiteCr0w]

People who are currently using three or four abilities will benefit from this change because it will free one or two mod slots that were previously being occupied by said abilities. This means they can now add more mods to the same builds.

 

Indeed. God I cannot wait. I've always used 3-4 abilities on every Frame (I have all but a few unlocked), so this means my playstyle will be enhanced. I chalk it up as a reward for playing with imagination and theatricality.

[gaurdianaq]

What the heck is the point of playing frost with no abilities, at that point you'd be better off with Rhino Prime due to his increased run speed (or zephyr)

[fishworshipper]

And whats the point? I can see how that can be fun in solo play, but for teamplay you are limping horse.

I disagree. On my meleecalibur I tend to have the most damage and kills.

[gaurdianaq]

I disagree. On my meleecalibur I tend to have the most damage and kills.

You could do that... or you could go on valkyr and use abilities like warcry or volts speed to destroy enemies even faster. Really there is no advantage to not using at least one ability, as every frame has at least one ability worth using (as far as I'm aware anyways)

[SquirmyBurrito]

You could do that... or you could go on valkyr and use abilities like warcry or volts speed to destroy enemies even faster. Really there is no advantage to not using at least one ability, as every frame has at least one ability worth using (as far as I'm aware anyways)

 

Not using any abilities allows for completely melee centered builds that wouldn't be possible if you had one slot taken up by an ability. 

[ra9una]

Yep, I will miss my powerless builds, but, I still like the change.

[Acos]

Keeping it at 10 slots would probably be fine. It *is* power creep, but that isn't inherently bad either; it's mostly a problem when the difficulty of the game doesn't keep up with the power available to the player. With augmentations soon to become a thing we'd probably need more slots to fit in everything anyway. 

I vote to keep it at 10 + Aura. 

Edited October 20, 2014 by Acos

[(PSN)i_illusion]

The new update benefits me more, or doesn't effect me at all. Every Warframe I use at least 2 abilities or more. So this works out for the best for me, as I'm now more powerful/versitile in the long run.

[MaverickZero]

It seems like a clear case of the greater amount of good for the greatest number of people. I don't have the stats but DE does and I bet they considered that.

 

I'm perfectly fine with throwing away all my 0-1 ability builds. It's probably because those were the majority of builds in Mods 1.0 and they were affecting the game negatively. I think my thoughts remained the same regarding that. Having a bland gamestyle in exchange for a bit more of a stat or two is something I came to dislike gradually. I don't like "Maximized" builds anymore. I grew so bored of them.

 

That being said, you still have a right to question decisions against your liking. I would encourage you to try and discover the purpose behind those decisions before you start expressing your thoughts.

Edited October 20, 2014 by MaverickZero

[SquirmyBurrito]

It seems like a clear case of the greater amount of good for the greatest number of people. I don't have the stats but DE does and I bet they considered that.

 

I'm perfectly fine with throwing away all my 0-1 ability builds. It's probably because those were the majority of builds in Mods 1.0 and they were affecting the game negatively. I think my thoughts remained the same regarding that. Having a bland gamestyle in exchange for a bit more of a stat or two is something I came to dislike gradually. I don't like "Maximized" builds anymore. I grew so bored of them.

 

That being said, you still have a right to question decisions against your liking. I would encourage you to try and discover the purpose behind those decisions before you start expressing your thoughts.

 

But this isn't the greatest amount of good they can do for the greatest amount of people. They could let us keep all the slots and eliminate all the bad the removal of the slots brings. 

[MaverickZero]

But this isn't the greatest amount of good they can do for the greatest amount of people. They could let us keep all the slots and eliminate all the bad the removal of the slots brings. 

Number of Warframes using 2-4 abilities >>>>>>>>>>>>> Number of Warframes using 0-1 abilities

 

If the number of Warframes using 0-1 abilities is so small compared to the other demographic then it's considered negligible. Meaning you don't consider them at all. I'm guessing that's how the math was done. 

 

Or it could be a Design decision by the Developers based on assumptions. Assume 90% of Warframes use at least 2 abilities -> Fix is inclusive of the majority of the population -> Deploy fix

 

Using assumptions is the fastest way to react in most situations. It doesn't mean it's a final version but if it works well enough you leave it as it is. From a Dev's viewpoint at least. 

[MaverickZero]

But this isn't the greatest amount of good they can do for the greatest amount of people. They could let us keep all the slots and eliminate all the bad the removal of the slots brings. 

In other words, building a fix around the majority works well with DE's interest. They get to focus the balance at the 'at least 2 abilities' area of the spectrum. Those at the center retain their "power". Those at the endpoints move closer to the center.

 

For example, have 3 abilities? now you get 1 added slot to non-ability mods and gain 1 ability. Have 1 ability? now you lose 1 slot from non-ability mods and gain 3 abilities.

 

It could be possible that they left 8 instead 6 mod slots because of the upcoming ability modifiers (Proxy Wars AKA Syndicates).

 

I'm just crafting theories here. You don't have to take my word for it.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Number of Warframes using 2-4 abilities >>>>>>>>>>>>> Number of Warframes using 0-1 abilities

 

If the number of Warframes using 0-1 abilities is so small compared to the other demographic then it's considered negligible. Meaning you don't consider them at all. I'm guessing that's how the math was done. 

 

Or it could be a Design decision by the Developers based on assumptions. Assume 90% of Warframes use at least 2 abilities -> Fix is inclusive of the majority of the population -> Deploy fix

 

Using assumptions is the fastest way to react in most situations. It doesn't mean it's a final version but if it works well enough you leave it as it is. From a Dev's viewpoint at least. 

 

1. Prove it.

2. All of these assumptions are needless as the potential harm done to players using 0-1 abilities can be so easily avoided without harming those who use 2-4.

 

In other words, building a fix around the majority works well with DE's interest. They get to focus the balance at the 'at least 2 abilities' area of the spectrum. Those at the center retain their "power". Those at the endpoints move closer to the center.

 

For example, have 3 abilities? now you get 1 added slot to non-ability mods and gain 1 ability. Have 1 ability? now you lose 1 slot from non-ability mods and gain 3 abilities.

 

It could be possible that they left 8 instead 6 mod slots because of the upcoming ability modifiers (Proxy Wars AKA Syndicates).

 

I'm just crafting theories here. You don't have to take my word for it.

 

1. Prove 2-4 ability users are in the majority.

2. Now explain why that even matters when letting us keep all four harms no one but removes the harm that cutting off two mod slots would do to players using 0-1 abilities.

3. Gaining abilities that we had no intention of using is not a fair or equal trade off.

4. That's irrelevant to your discussion with me as I'm not asking for a further reduction to six.

5. As much as I usually have no problem with theory crafting, I am really getting sick and tired of people throwing their theories in my face in these threads as if their theories prove me wrong or invalidate my argument. Especially when my argument is purely that I'd rather DE let us keep all ten rather than cut off two. I am not against the ability mod removal, nor am I against the other stuff they hinted at. I am only against the one thing about this change that harms my builds and the builds of others like me.

[MaverickZero]

1. Prove it.

2. All of these assumptions are needless as the potential harm done to players using 0-1 abilities can be so easily avoided without harming those who use 2-4.

 

 

1. Prove 2-4 ability users are in the majority.

2. Now explain why that even matters when letting us keep all four harms no one but removes the harm that cutting off two mod slots would do to players using 0-1 abilities.

3. Gaining abilities that we had no intention of using is not a fair or equal trade off.

4. That's irrelevant to your discussion with me as I'm not asking for a further reduction to six.

5. As much as I usually have no problem with theory crafting, I am really getting sick and tired of people throwing their theories in my face in these threads as if their theories prove me wrong or invalidate my argument. Especially when my argument is purely that I'd rather DE let us keep all ten rather than cut off two. I am not against the ability mod removal, nor am I against the other stuff they hinted at. I am only against the one thing about this change that harms my builds and the builds of others like me.

A) I wasn't trying to 'shut you up'. You asked for possible explanations and I answered. I don't need to side with or against the fix to give possible reasons for it.

 

B) Any of the statistic-related numbers are strictly available to the Developers. I can't 'prove' anything related to them because I don't work at DE.

 

D) You sound very hostile (in text format) so as always I'll just try to avoid interaction.

[SquirmyBurrito]

A) I wasn't trying to 'shut you up'. You asked for possible explanations and I answered. I don't need to side with or against the fix to give possible reasons for it.

 

B) Any of the statistic-related numbers are strictly available to the Developers. I can't 'prove' anything related to them because I don't work at DE.

 

D) You sound very hostile (in text format) so as always I'll just try to avoid interaction.

 

A) I didn't say you were trying to shut me up. I asked for explanations for things that you didn't actually explain.

 

B) Then why attempt to argue based on them when you can only guess as to what they are?

 

C) Really now? I was under the impression that I was doing a good job of keeping my tempter in check. Just read back through my posts, where did I say anything that was hostile?

[MaverickZero]

A) I didn't say you were trying to shut me up. I asked for explanations for things that you didn't actually explain.

 

B) Then why attempt to argue based on them when you can only guess as to what they are?

 

C) Really now? I was under the impression that I was doing a good job of keeping my tempter in check. Just read back through my posts, where did I say anything that was hostile?

I guess I have to state the answer in a clearer manner. If you add 2 more slots (10 total) you have to fix other modules of the game such as enemies and level difficulties or risk worsening player experience (for the statistically proven majority that I have no access to). It seems logical that you achieve your goals with the most fruitful method (in terms of pleased vs not pleased customers). So if this fix is deployed every player will be in the same boat. Everyone has 4 abilities and 8 mod slots. This makes future balancing easier.

 

The short answer: Because they want to keep the current balance (not having to re-balance other modules)

 

Also, I don't think we share the same concept of 'theory crafting' at all. 

Edited October 20, 2014 by MaverickZero

[SquirmyBurrito]

I guess I have to state the answer in a clearer manner. If you add 2 more slots (10 total) you have to fix other modules of the game such as enemies and level difficulties or risk worsening player experience (for the statistically proven majority that I have no access to). It seems logical that you achieve your goals with the most fruitful method (in terms of pleased vs not pleased customers). So if this fix is deployed every player will be in the same boat. Everyone has 4 abilities and 8 mod slots. This makes future balancing easier.

 

The short answer: Because they want to keep the current balance (not having to re-balance other modules)

 

Also, I don't think we share the same concept of 'theory crafting' at all. 

 

The exact same thing can be achieved by giving us ten slots. 

 

It wouldn't create any real balance issues that don't already exist.

 

Unless you're using some extremely weird definition, I'm fairly certain we do.

[TankHunter678]

I guess I have to state the answer in a clearer manner. If you add 2 more slots (10 total) you have to fix other modules of the game such as enemies and level difficulties or risk worsening player experience (for the statistically proven majority that I have no access to). It seems logical that you achieve your goals with the most fruitful method (in terms of pleased vs not pleased customers). So if this fix is deployed every player will be in the same boat. Everyone has 4 abilities and 8 mod slots. This makes future balancing easier.

 

The short answer: Because they want to keep the current balance (not having to re-balance other modules)

 

Also, I don't think we share the same concept of 'theory crafting' at all. 

The enemies have been in need of fixing for a long time. They lack diversity to make the experience more engaging and varied. They lack a proper amount of power and durability to keep things interesting in the face of how strong players get with just weapons (who needs abilities when your weapons obliterate anything in your path anyways?) and they also lack mechanics and AI to enable them to be something more then just mindless bullet sponges.

 

The removal of 2 slots helps kill build variety even if all abilities no longer cost mod slots. Sure, on every frame I gain 2 slots since I more or less always ran 4 ability setups. Now what am I going to put in there? Probably just vigor and another defense type mod since I wont have enough slots to counteract corrupted mods properly so I do not drastically impair half of my abilities.

 

If I had access to all 10 slots then I would have more wiggle room to work with.

[Evanescent]

The game isn't balanced around anything.

touche.

 

 

But DE does not balance around endless missions.