For The People Who Use No Abilities

[djuice_]

touche.

 

 

But DE does not balance around endless missions.

 

But they are the most played missions! 

 

If they don't balance the game around that, then its pointless if 70% of the people only play those modes.

[RoboDoge]

But they are the most played missions! 

 

If they don't balance the game around that, then its pointless if 70% of the people only play those modes.

If people play endless the most, that doesnt mean they stay in there for 40+ mins and 30+ waves. In 90 % of the cases people leave before 20 waves at defense, and 30 mins at survival.

 

 

Only small portion of community is trying do stupidly high runs and they are mostly using exploits for that. I remember crying about Blessing nerf because people couldnt do 140+ mins T4 Survival runs.

Edited October 20, 2014 by RoboDoge

[Kalenath]

If people play endless the most, that doesnt mean they stay in there for 40+ mins and 30+ waves. In 90 % of the cases people leave before 20 waves at defense, and 30 mins at survival.

 

 

Only small portion of community is trying do stupidly high runs and they are mostly using exploits for that. I remember crying about Blessing nerf because people couldnt do 140+ mins T4 Survival runs.

 

Most people in my own clan find above wave 40 Defense to be boring. 40 minutes or more in Survival likewise. For most of us (my clan) it is just not fun beyond that.

 

For leveling, I go to 15 minutes Survival and wave 20 Defense. Most PUGs can't do more than that anyway.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Kalenath

[Karnachkarnanz]

I like the idea of highly specialized builds. it adds diversity. and with corrupted mods it's often an either/or-situation anyway. also, I trigger abilities with my mouse (mousewheel to select), I like being able to shut abilities down to not use a wrong one by accident.

[KingTaro]

Who the crud uses no abilities...?  Do you even Warframe?

 

My Rhino PvP build has no abilities. Which I also like to use in the PvE missions once in a while.

Without abilities, you don't have to concern yourself with any skill boosting mods. This gives you alot of space to boost the basic stats.

This off course, doesn't work on frames that rely on their skills only. Like Loki, Nova, Nyx, etc...

 

The best frame for a no-skills build is Valkyr. Followed up by Saryn, Rhino, Frost, Ash and Zephyr in that particular order from my experience so far.

[Keltik0ne]

Just think of all the fun of formaing new warframes, you'll have to regrind all the skills !

[Cat_Jam]

I vote to keep it at 10 + Aura. 

Agreed, I dislike being forced to a play-style.

 

I understand that I could just not use the abilities, but that means that I have 2 fewer slots to work with; and since my build is built around the comfort of myself it also means that a part of my play-style will be sacrificed.

 

I still understand that I am in the minority (0-1 ability users compared to 2-4 ability users) but I still find it unfair that we have to sacrifice our play-style for the benefit of the people who use most abilities. DE could easily solve this by- as stated- keeping the 10 (11 if you count the aura) mod capacity. You could consider it power creep but if you think of it in the long run, it's a lot more customisation for survivability (Vitality, Redirection, Vigor and Steel Fiber will be used together if you have 10 slots).

[Sitchrea]

YOU GET YOUR FORMA BACK

[Kalenath]

YOU GET YOUR FORMA BACK

 

Hey! Don't confuse people with the facts!

[Cat_Jam]

YOU GET YOUR FORMA BACK

Read the whole thread, please.

 

Forma is not our issue. It's the fact that DE are taking slots from the players- being the ones who use 0-1 ability card(s)- who could seriously use them.

[Shehriazad]

one and zero skill builds are an absolute minority in this game.

So a few will suffer for the benefit of many.

Not to mention ability augments might be enough to justify you missing out on 1 slot when you are a 1 build frame.


Not to mention I have yet to see a build that NEEEEEEEEEDS 9 mods for 1 skill to function.

And 10 mods without skills means that you will have to drop some minor QoL mods....get over it. Not every change in the game can be great for everyone.

Overall the positive aspects of this change will outweigh the negative ones by quite a bit.


Adapt or die is all I can tell you here.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Shehriazad

[Cat_Jam]

Adapt or die is all I can tell you here.

Hard to do when 90% of the community here disagrees with your opinion in such a way that they come up with terms such as "Get over it. Not every change in the game can be great for everyone."

 

Of course not every change can benefit every player, it's DE's job to make it so all (if not then at least to 99%) of the players feel mutual about the update.

 

"Minor QoL mods" also irked me. I have spent time and effort- just as others have- in order for my play-style to be successful, these "minor" QoL mods help some people play more naturally and in most peoples' builds the QoL mods are not there for "minor" reasons- they're there in order for them to be happy and have fun.

 

For example, in my Frost P build I use Handspring. This is a mod you may consider as a "minor" QoL mod but for me it's essential in order to play with no abilities. I can't spend precious seconds on the floor as the enemies surround me, I have to be up and alert in order to stop them without the aid of abilities.

 

I thoroughly enjoy playing with no abilities, because the game changes. It changes in a way such that your Warframe stops being a god and starts adapting to it's surroundings. It's tactical. I like tactical. And as I have previously stated, just because we're in the minority doesn't mean that our voice isn't as loud as yours.

[RoboDoge]

Hard to do when 90% of the community here disagrees with your opinion in such a way that they come up with terms such as "Get over it. Not every change in the game can be great for everyone."

 

Of course not every change can benefit every player, it's DE's job to make it so all (if not then at least to 99%) of the players feel mutual about the update.

 

"Minor QoL mods" also irked me. I have spent time and effort- just as others have- in order for my play-style to be successful, these "minor" QoL mods help some people play more naturally and in most peoples' builds the QoL mods are not there for "minor" reasons- they're there in order for them to be happy and have fun.

 

For example, in my Frost P build I use Handspring. This is a mod you may consider as a "minor" QoL mod but for me it's essential in order to play with no abilities. I can't spend precious seconds on the floor as the enemies surround me, I have to be up and alert in order to stop them without the aid of abilities.

 

I thoroughly enjoy playing with no abilities, because the game changes. It changes in a way such that your Warframe stops being a god and starts adapting to it's surroundings. It's tactical. I like tactical. And as I have previously stated, just because we're in the minority doesn't mean that our voice isn't as loud as yours.

Please check your upvotes. You might realize something.

[SquirmyBurrito]

one and zero skill builds are an absolute minority in this game.

So a few will suffer for the benefit of many.

Not to mention ability augments might be enough to justify you missing out on 1 slot when you are a 1 build frame.

Not to mention I have yet to see a build that NEEEEEEEEEDS 9 mods for 1 skill to function.

And 10 mods without skills means that you will have to drop some minor QoL mods....get over it. Not every change in the game can be great for everyone.

Overall the positive aspects of this change will outweigh the negative ones by quite a bit.

Adapt or die is all I can tell you here.

 

To be fair, you can't make that claim without actual evidence to back it up. And I am pretty sure you don't have the raw statistical data on who many people use 1 ability builds.

 

The issue is that this change could easily be done in a way that doesn't make anyone suffer.

How is DE adding extra (hopefully competitive) mods to the game going to justify a DECREASE in mod slots? On a one ability build you're going to have to sacrifice two mods (one because of the change, and one for the ability augment). 

 

It isn't that all nine are needed for that skill. It is that several are needed for the skill while the others are needed/wanted for their utility/defense/general support.

 

They aren't minor for those who are using them. Blahblahblah BS, this change (as has already been explained which proves you didn't actually read through the thread) can be made good for everyone by letting us keep all ten slots. That way no one is forced to cut any abilities from their builds.

 

No, not for those of us who were using zero ability builds. The addition of abilities we didn't want at the cost of two mods we did want isn't an example of the 'positive' outweighing the negative.

 

No. I'd rather QQ on the forums until DE either stops punishing me for playing the way I wanted (that they made available to me), or until the stick their foot in their mouth by officially declaring that they view things like min-maxing to be an issue. [i received clarification, false alarm.] 

Edited October 20, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[Cat_Jam]

-snip-

I- I... I think I love you.

 

Nohomo.

 

But yeah, I can understand the positive effects this update would have on the people who use 3-4 abilities and I can also understand the negative effects this update would have on the people who use 0-1 ability builds. And I can honestly say, keeping the 10 slots would resolve every issue pointed out in this thread.

[MaverickZero]

I- I... I think I love you.

 

Nohomo.

 

But yeah, I can understand the positive effects this update would have on the people who use 3-4 abilities and I can also understand the negative effects this update would have on the people who use 0-1 ability builds. And I can honestly say, keeping the 10 slots would resolve every issue pointed out in this thread.

And ruin an already in-a-bad-shape game balance. If you want the 10 slots then wait until Scott is free to re-balance everything in the same patch. Meaning the changes should be delayed.

[FaerieBanshee]

Having just read through this entire thread I have the intense urge to look at images of kittens and pygmy hippos. It was that depressing and not because of what was being argued. ;n;

[Reidmaster]

I can understand your pain with this update, but I mean MOST of the players will benefit from this.

 

Also, what is so bad with having to use a different play-style? Isn't that why we have different Warframes?

[Nlim]

They aren't minor for those who are using them. Blahblahblah BS, this change (as has already been explained which proves you didn't actually read through the thread) can be made good for everyone by letting us keep all ten slots. That way no one is forced to cut any abilities from their builds.

Why not have 14 mod slots? Their definitly are amazing builds which could prop up think of all the variety.:O

Meanwhile in reality power creep is a real thing. I assume DE will have tested it and concluded giving us our abilities for free and 10 mod slots would just break the current scale too much.

 

And I have somewhat of a hard time to understand why you can´t see how the positives outweigh the negatives.

Sure you might run only builds which have 1 or less ability but ever since its inception people complained about how abilties got outscaled by mods.

Like nobody running Super Jump since it just wasn´t worth the one mod slot. The positive is that abilties don´t compete with mods anymore and this is huge since you don´t have to gimp yourself for running a weaker ability.

I mean sure you can play the victim and complain how DE "punishes" you for your playstyle which is currently possible but on the other hand people who wanted to play with all warframe abilites have been "punished" since the system existed. One persons joy can be another ones pain and I see more joy than pain for the majority here while the current system holds the reverse but if someone has some hard evidence that actually people who use one or less ability are a majority and want to keep this system go ahead and present it - otherwise I will keep with the more likely asumption that this is a small minority.

 

I do hope that the fall back isn´t the 10 mod slots suggestion - as explained such things have consquences. We do not have the data to make the call if this will help or break the game. Only DE can make this call but keeping 10 mod slots just to keep people happy is not a good argument from a game design perspective (altough I won´t deny it could be a good one for marketing but we do not have these numbers either- DE does)

[Riot_Inducer]

Ok so I haven't read through the whole thread but...I'm honestly kind of confused. Can someone who runs with no abilities tell me their build? Because, right now I'm just kind of running through my head of what I would put in a build with no abilities and by the time I get to the last two slots I've already covered just about everything there is to cover without powers and I'm down to stuff like handspring and reflex guard. Nice things to be sure but by no means vital to the build by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I just am finding it hard to believe that anyone's build will be irrevocably ruined by losing two mod slots. I really can't think up a build that vitally needs all 10 mods. 

[Chub_N_Tuck]

I respect the choice of using no ability. But it seems like you have no choice but to have those 10 mod slots to play the way you play. Is it not negotiable on your end?

 

DE have come up with their solution to solve the displeasure, I don't see why you should just keep on arguing that DE should have kept all 10 slots. It is what it is. They want us to use all four abilities and for the most part they have came up with the right solution. They are forcing you to use all four abilities in your specific case, but I don't think DE can please everyone - like someone mentioned before in this thread and even though someone already disagreed that DE can please everyone. 

 

When you play in a multiplayer game, there will be differences in opinion on some features of the game no matter what. Sacrificing some playstyle of some players look really miniscule to me. After all, their intention is to let us to fully use warframes along with their powers, not with a select few, or even no powers at all.

Edited October 20, 2014 by GaiaNyix

[Cat_Jam]

I can understand your pain with this update, but I mean MOST of the players will benefit from this.

 

Also, what is so bad with having to use a different play-style? Isn't that why we have different Warframes?

I like Frost P, I like his traits, his shield size, his HP size, his energy- the lot. I hate his abilities, though. So I removed them. It started out as just a test but I enjoyed it, so I used it as my main. I find it fun and enjoyable- and the new update will remove the fun and joy from me, so I felt the need to speak up here.

 

Ok so I haven't read through the whole thread but...I'm honestly kind of confused. Can someone who runs with no abilities tell me their build? Because, right now I'm just kind of running through my head of what I would put in a build with no abilities and by the time I get to the last two slots I've already covered just about everything there is to cover without powers and I'm down to stuff like handspring and reflex guard. Nice things to be sure but by no means vital to the build by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I just am finding it hard to believe that anyone's build will be irrevocably ruined by losing two mod slots. I really can't think up a build that vitally needs all 10 mods. 

0 Ability builds differ from person to person I believe.

 

I use the following: Vitality, Redirection, Steel Fibre, Quick Thinking, Rage, Fortitude, Quick Rest, Rush, Handspring and Flow. I use these for my play-style and my comfort and I can justify my reasoning for every single one of them.

 

Vitality - The increase in HP means I can take more damage if need be during high level runs. This mod- for me- works in harmony with Redirection, Steel Fibre, Quick Thinking and Rage. The complimentary idea was set in my head so I went through with it.

 

Redirection - Frost, with the highest shield pool in the game, would benefit greatly with the mod. I could take all damage on low levels without them even breaking my shields.

 

Steel Fibre - As Frost has the second highest armour rating in the game, this mod means his rating increases along with Vitality to give an increase in the total effective health.

 

Quick Thinking + Rage - For the moments when I'm not paying attention, these mods give me a second chance to stand up, equip my melee, channel and life steal all of my lost HP back. Totally necessary when soloing high level missions.

 

Fortitude - Although this mod isn't completely necessary, it compliments both the Redirection mod and my survivability when potentially being knocked down.

 

Quick Rest + Rush - As I melee, run, wall-run and jump a lot I found this combo necessary to use on Frost. Frost is a slow 'frame and Rush helps him a lot in mobility terms. Quick Rest is less needed by highly wanted in my own build.

 

Handspring - I hate those precious seconds spent wasted on the floor as I become surrounded by enemies. This is essential for solo-play if you want to stay on your feet.

 

Flow - Flow is there to boost my energy pool for when my HP is too low, it acts with Quick Thinking and provides my second chance to wake up and get my lost HP back.

 

I use this build with Frost's Arcane Aurora Helmet too, for that boost to his armour rating and slightly lower HP.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Also, what is so bad with having to use a different play-style? Isn't that why we have different Warframes?

 

I don't want to play that way. If I did I'd hop on a different build.

 

Why not have 14 mod slots? Their definitly are amazing builds which could prop up think of all the variety.:O

Meanwhile in reality power creep is a real thing. I assume DE will have tested it and concluded giving us our abilities for free and 10 mod slots would just break the current scale too much.

 

And I have somewhat of a hard time to understand why you can´t see how the positives outweigh the negatives.

Sure you might run only builds which have 1 or less ability but ever since its inception people complained about how abilties got outscaled by mods.

Like nobody running Super Jump since it just wasn´t worth the one mod slot. The positive is that abilties don´t compete with mods anymore and this is huge since you don´t have to gimp yourself for running a weaker ability.

I mean sure you can play the victim and complain how DE "punishes" you for your playstyle which is currently possible but on the other hand people who wanted to play with all warframe abilites have been "punished" since the system existed. One persons joy can be another ones pain and I see more joy than pain for the majority here while the current system holds the reverse but if someone has some hard evidence that actually people who use one or less ability are a majority and want to keep this system go ahead and present it - otherwise I will keep with the more likely asumption that this is a small minority.

 

I do hope that the fall back isn´t the 10 mod slots suggestion - as explained such things have consquences. We do not have the data to make the call if this will help or break the game. Only DE can make this call but keeping 10 mod slots just to keep people happy is not a good argument from a game design perspective (altough I won´t deny it could be a good one for marketing but we do not have these numbers either- DE does)

 

Don't try and use that argument against me. I am asking for ten purely because at that number no one will find themselves having mods yanked from their builds. If DE decided to replace two of the ten slots with utility/defense only mod slots I'd be fine with it.

 

I have already addressed the 'the positive outweigh the negatives' argument. That argument assumes that having access to all our abilities is viewed as a good thing and it also assumes that we assign a higher value to those abilities than the choice of two other mods.

 

No, people who wanted to play with all abilities were not punished. They chose not to sacrifice those abilities for more mods. I chose to sacrifice some or all of my abilities for more mods. We were equal. This upcoming change benefits them while punishing me.

 

Provide evidence that proves any one group is the majority. We have none, currently so I make no argument that draws on them as support. And even if we did have them it wouldn't matter as my one request wouldn't benefit me (0-1 ability users) while harming others. It would only serve to benefit everyone.

 

I can truthfully claim that having two mods yanked out of my ability less build in exchange for four abilities that I have no plans on using (and are operating at base stats) isn't going to leave me in a better state.

[Nlim]

 

Don't try and use that argument against me. I am asking for ten purely because at that number no one will find themselves having mods yanked from their builds. If DE decided to replace two of the ten slots with utility/defense only mod slots I'd be fine with it.

And why should I not use that argument against you? The core problem of the 10 mod suggestion is balance which makes your point void of their being a solution which would please evryone. I would have hoped the 14 suggestion was extrem enough to illustrate the issue: You are asking for an increase in mod slots without considering the affect it could have on the game.

 

 

I have already addressed the 'the positive outweigh the negatives' argument. That argument assumes that having access to all our abilities is viewed as a good thing and it also assumes that we assign a higher value to those abilities than the choice of two other mods.

 

 

 

This does not adress the argument. You are stating the obvious and try to discredit it by adding "assume". Plenty of people see it as a positive, plenty of people don´t care about those potential two mod choices. As said people have been complaing since the beginning about abilities which get out performed by conventional mods. Just because you personally count the negatives more than the positives doesn´t mean it holds true in general.

 

No, people who wanted to play with all abilities were not punished. They chose not to sacrifice those abilities for more mods. I chose to sacrifice some or all of my abilities for more mods. We were equal. This upcoming change benefits them while punishing me.

 

A calculation is not a choice. While mods and abilities aren´t directly comparable, their were plenty of abilites with too little utility or impact to justify a mod slot. People might have run with them anyways since they didn´t care about the optimum but this doesn´t change the fact that they got a disadvantage by the system via opportunity cost. The system numericly heavily favoured a lot of builds which skipt over one, two or rarly even three abilities. This is also why I find this idea of "punished" absurd. The choice people did make was to play a suboptimal build, you want to run an impossible build in the future and call it punishment than try to turn it around like it was equal before which simply isn´t true for a lot of frames&situations.

 

Provide evidence that proves any one group is the majority. We have none, currently so I make no argument that draws on them as support. And even if we did have them it wouldn't matter as my one request wouldn't benefit me (0-1 ability users) while harming others. It would only serve to benefit everyone.

Well outside the abilites being the biggest part of the warframes identity, my 400 hour playtime more often than not seeing more than one ability from other people, the ongoing discussions on the forums about frames and more specificly people constantly defending certain abilities as not useless, most effcient builds in general using at least two abilities - I guess their is no hint on which group would be the majority. Sure this is no hard proof but I don´t have a lot of sympathy in this case for hiding behind ambiguity. You are simply avoiding one of the biggest issues for your position despite their being plenty of doubt if your group is even sizeable enough to get worked up over - let alone being a majority.

If someone has data to show the opposite I am happy to admit my error in estimation but this is not a scientify arena. We are just making posts on a random forum, so I will be contend with a reasonable guess.

 

I can truthfully claim that having two mods yanked out of my ability less build in exchange for four abilities that I have no plans on using (and are operating at base stats) isn't going to leave me in a better state.

Well, yeah... If you ignore the positive change and keep being stuck on a past build your situation won´t improve. With this kind of argument you can stop pretty much any change. If you don´t want to adept fine - I on the other hand like the change.

[SquirmyBurrito]

snip

 

You shouldn't use it because that argument is just you creating a slippery slope in order to attempt to make my request seem more outlandish than it is. You claim it creates a balance issue but I see no proof to substantiate that claim. I have already considered and discussed the potential increase in power ten can create. Most people agree that it is an increase in power, whether or not said increase is enough to justify the unnecessary negative that the alternate creates is debatable. 

 

As I stated, I have already addressed that argument. I have also stated that I do not like having to repeat myself constantly. Especially not when you'd already know my response if you actually read through the entire thread. Also, my reply did address the argument.  I explained the flaws in your argument. I used the word assume where it was applicable. Plenty of people see it as a positive thing, many of those people who see it as positive have confessed to being 2-4 ability users. Most of the 1-0 ability users I have spoken with have stated that (in their opinion) having the 3-4 abilities they didn't want, does not make the loss of 1-2 mods worth it. The point is that whether or not the 'positives' outweigh the negatives is purely a matter of opinion. And as far as I feel and those I have spoken with feel, it does not. Those who are not affected by the negative shouldn't be attempting to speak on whether or not the positive outweighs it.

 

They traded those extra mods for a more versatile build. Specialist builds trade versatility, for power in their role. Optimal assumes that everyone wants the same result from their build. Banshee is a good example. A player could drop silence, sonic boom, and sound quake in order to create a powerful and tough sonar build. But in doing so they lose CC. A player could shed a mod and keep one of the three CC abilities available and they will still have less CC than a player taking all of their abilities. The only disadvantages that exist exist when you compare how two (or more) builds preform when attempting to play one role. If they play different roles (or choose to multi-role) there is no disadvantage. 

 

I disagree. I am of the opinion that the frame's appearance is the biggest part of its identity. Take away its powers and an Saryn is still a Saryn. Giving Rhino Loki's abilities doesn't suddenly turn Rhino into Loki. In my 1k+ playtime I've seen numerous examples of players only using one ability (no idea if their build had more than one slotted for obvious reasons). I almost exclusively play PUGs. There is no available data to indicate which group if the biggest nor is there anyway of knowing (currently) how big each group is. During my time on the forums I have seen massive threads devoted to claiming one frame or another only had one useful ability. Those threads will often have arguments between two groups who hold polar opposite opinions. I know because I often engage in them.

If you have no evidence to back your guess I will continue to ignore it.

 

I'm not ignoring the positive I'm pointing out how unnecessary the negative is and how the 'positive' is only a positive for those people who plan on using those abilities. My Radial Disarm Loki isn't going to use decoy, invisibility, or switch teleport just because they're available. My Ability-less Valkyr isn't going to use her powers just because they're there. Primarily because my ability-less valkyr is not going to be fun for me to play thanks to this change. Same goes for my other ability-less builds. My Speed only Volt is going to have to drop that rush mod. My Chaos-only Nyx prime is going to have to drop that health mod. etc. Most changes are backed by a good reason. Weapon nerfs because the weapon is vastly superior to everything. Ability nerfs because they're allowing unlimited invincibility. A reduction in frame slots because keeping ten would marginally increase the overall power of some builds... I do not personally find that to be a good enough reason to screw me over. My zero-ability build was not so powerful that it was unbalanced. It was not so powerful that giving me abilities would make it so. If DE is so afraid of creating imbalances, they could always just restrict the mods that are able to be put in the extra two slots so that we have 8 slots+1 aura slot+2 utility/support slots. This would allow my zero ability builds to continue to exist and would even be a step forward in making utility mods more attractive by removing some of the competition.