Removing The 2 Ability Slots Might Not Be The Best Idea

[SoulEchelon]

Whoa whoa there, they aren't taking a Hek of a lot away from us. We lose one slot, that's the deal for having not just 6, but 8 to customize our WarFrame and powers with. I'd call that better across the board, the new players can equip more, and so can the vets. Sure, we lose one slot, but for the ability to have all our powers available, and the freedom to customize for all of those powers without having to worry about losing any of them, is a great freedom.

 

We have choice, some may think that cookie cutter builds are the answer, straight DPS, and for them that's cool, they do them, and we can do us. 8 is still a massive amount of choice, far more than we had at baseline in the current system. Trust me, very few will go for Flame Repellant over Fleeting Expertise, or Maglev instead of Flow, that's just how people are. You can still customize for that one ability you want to be super powerful, only difference is that you may be one mod short for the build. But I have to say, if the entire build is dependent on one mod, that's a pretty flimsy build to say is greater than others.

 

DE can still implement entirely new enemy types with, as you stated, smarter AI, better mechanics, and interesting fighting styles, this upcoming change doesn't mean these things cannot happen. We see that with Vay Hek, with Lephantis, and hopefully with other bosses. These new boss remakes are a good start, DE only has to keep building on it and work from there.

 

The hypothetical boss battle that you made up, would that not also remove player choice from the equation as well then? The situation you describe means that a certain build works better in those situations than others. That, in itself, removes player choice from the equation because they would have to optimize their builds a certain way for that boss battle.

 

We lose one mod slot, yes, but we gain so much more in return.

 

Took the words right out of my fingers.

[Semshol]

Whoa whoa there, they aren't taking a Hek of a lot away from us. We lose one slot, that's the deal for having not just 6, but 8 to customize our WarFrame and powers with. I'd call that better across the board, the new players can equip more, and so can the vets. Sure, we lose one slot, but for the ability to have all our powers available, and the freedom to customize for all of those powers without having to worry about losing any of them, is a great freedom.

 

We have choice, some may think that cookie cutter builds are the answer, straight DPS, and for them that's cool, they do them, and we can do us. 8 is still a massive amount of choice, far more than we had at baseline in the current system. Trust me, very few will go for Flame Repellant over Fleeting Expertise, or Maglev instead of Flow, that's just how people are. You can still customize for that one ability you want to be super powerful, only difference is that you may be one mod short for the build. But I have to say, if the entire build is dependent on one mod, that's a pretty flimsy build to say is greater than others.

 

DE can still implement entirely new enemy types with, as you stated, smarter AI, better mechanics, and interesting fighting styles, this upcoming change doesn't mean these things cannot happen. We see that with Vay Hek, with Lephantis, and hopefully with other bosses. These new boss remakes are a good start, DE only has to keep building on it and work from there.

 

The hypothetical boss battle that you made up, would that not also remove player choice from the equation as well then? The situation you describe means that a certain build works better in those situations than others. That, in itself, removes player choice from the equation because they would have to optimize their builds a certain way for that boss battle.

 

We lose one mod slot, yes, but we gain so much more in return.

 

Well how many warframes currently use ALL their powers. That's the point I'm making, very few, if not none because we as gamers are people who optimize.

 

That said, opening up more chances for us to optimize gives us a reason to go through the A, B and C configuration where we can apply different mods to suit the situation. Do we want to be faster for captures? Do we want to be tankier for survivals/defenses? Maybe we just want to ignore all possible toxin damage and run circles around the infested. These ideas can't come around if people are stuck with the exact same builds that they had BEFORE the change. Or worse, having to make a choice to remove 1 of the mods they enjoyed because they were in a 9 mod optimized build.

 

DE cannot implement smarter bosses however, because again there is no room. Lephantis and Vay Hek are just gigantic bullet sponges with invincibility frames. There is nothing bigger beyond that and that is where things are going wrong in general. More choice opens up more routes for us to take. Without it, no matter how many cool new situational mods DE introduces, no one is going to pick them up. Basically as many others in this thread have stated, nothing changes from 8 mod optimized builds, those with 6 get more fun, those with 7 get more fun, those with 9 lose out, those with no abilities have to cry. That's not exactly fairness in my opinion and it doesn't leave them room to build. When you create something, there must be room for expansion and with 10 slots, that room is there. Newbies have something to look forward to in fact, the day when they can fill all 10 slots, while vets can enjoy tweaking around with those and seeing what they can come up with.

 

As for the hypothetical boss battle, no it doesn't. It encourages choice. For example, a Runner could choose either to put on all 3 anti-element mods. Or if he feels he can deal with cold, simply by bringing a Raksa Kubrow, he now has another choice for a mod. He is not locked in to a particular style and he still has his choice. Take away mod slots however and suddenly he has to think very hard about what to take and in the end he might just choose pure survivability and the remaining niche mods go back to rotting.

 

I won't argue that we aren't gaining something. However, a gain and a loss at the same time do not make the situation better. There should only be gains and no losses. That is what makes things better.

 

Better for some is not enough.

 

Better for all is what we need to aim for.

 

Balance won't be sorted out by giving us 10 mod slots, it won't be broken by giving us 10 mod slots. Players are still players and we will diversify. What WILL change however is DE's legroom. They gain a reason to give us higher tiers and crazier levels of difficulty or perhaps more interesting challenge and that is what I see in 10 mod slots as opposed to 8.

 

Guns should already kind of tell you. With 8 slots, niche mods don't see a use in high-level play. Damage is <3, Damage is Life. Giving us 10 would still not see a change to that. Giving us 12 might. That should indicate to DE that less slots = more cookie cutter, more slots = more opportunity. (Just to clarify a point, Warframes would diversify at 10 because unlike guns, Moar Shields and Health doesn't exist except for Vigor and that consumes 1 at best, the rest becomes pure change).

[Saint_Tan]

[says in Jest...]

 

Let's just be glad DE is not going the route the game show Wheel of Fortune did. 

 

There was a time when the contestants in the final round were able to choose ALL of their letters.  But everyone always picked the same group of letters within their choices (largely E, S, R, T, L, N).  So over time the show just made those letters "a given", the contestants were then only able to add a couple additional letters to that pool.

 

Imagine if Warframe suddenly said, "Every Frame automatically comes with your Ultimate Power, Vitality, and Steel Fiber.  Now you get to pick for the remaining 4 slots..."

 

Hehe.  Just saying: give DE a chance on this.  If we don't like it, they have a record of listening and making adjustments.

[Semshol]

[says in Jest...]

 

Let's just be glad DE is not going the route the game show Wheel of Fortune did. 

 

There was a time when the contestants in the final round were able to choose ALL of their letters.  But everyone always picked the same group of letters within their choices (largely E, S, R, T, L, N).  So over time the show just made those letters "a given", the contestants were then only able to add a couple additional letters to that pool.

 

Imagine if Warframe suddenly said, "Every Frame automatically comes with your Ultimate Power, Vitality, and Steel Fiber.  Now you get to pick for the remaining 4 slots..."

 

Hehe.  Just saying: give DE a chance on this.  If we don't like it, they have a record of listening and making adjustments.

 

I am open to that, but I see no reason why I shouldn't highlight the point up front =P

 

It saves them the trouble in future.

 

Just add the legroom now and then have the opportunity to do crazy things for us.

 

Waiting and seeing will simply result in everything remaining the same, because...as we all know, most frames are already running 2 ability builds which means ---> Nothing changes for them.

 

If the result from the big change is that ----> Nothing changes, then it's not really a step forward is it? x'D

[SoulEchelon]

I won't argue that we aren't gaining something. However, a gain and a loss at the same time do not make the situation better. There should only be gains and no losses. That is what makes things better.

 

Had to stop reading right here. Nothing in this world or the next can achieve balance if all we do is continuously gain. There has to be checks and balances. If we kept continuously gaining, then there would be no challenge. Enemies will be even easier than before. The game would eventually die out because players would have no real challenge. Hell, we already have that problem right now, and this, along with quite a number of changes that have been happening lately, is DE's way of saying "We need to balance our game. Now."

[UseAndGo]

* As mentioned on DevStream that current gap between a new player and "pro" player is immense ergo DE toned down the far ends, so the gap is "alot" narrower (is that even a word) now.

 

* 1-2 Ability builds got too much power with "nightmare" mods and event mods.... Yeah simply we DE didnt see this coming as trend they didnt like it so thats it. This eventually cuts down platinum need for new players and its good thing.

 

* Few warframes (no naming) went over board with either damage or surv to "SO" badly that other warframes started to look totally lackluster and ppls trended towards these few frames. Imagine Old Quick Thinking + Rage, thats how certain frames can get even today.

 

Personally I like this new idea because Im maybe minority here that uses mostly 3-4 Abilities on all frames and this change for me personally is good one. The old system (current as I type this) is biased in the end game to have just 1-3 viable builds cause ppls want things to be easy and just hit one button to "win all". On the new system ppls actually have to think and pick more "support" frames to fill in the old "extreme" OP damage/tank comps, so in a way this brings more to table that the old system did. Ok I give you that old system gave you certain freedom to go out on weird builds and comps with no support at all - but all in all this is good change for larger player base than it was before.

[Semshol]

Had to stop reading right here. Nothing in this world or the next can achieve balance if all we do is continuously gain. There has to be checks and balances. If we kept continuously gaining, then there would be no challenge. Enemies will be even easier than before. The game would eventually die out because players would have no real challenge. Hell, we already have that problem right now, and this, along with quite a number of changes that have been happening lately, is DE's way of saying "We need to balance our game. Now."

 

Problem is you aren't going to get balance, because they have no excuse to make even more challenging enemies. If they throw them in now, people will complain: hurrr it's too hard.

 

It's happened so many times previously. I'm thinking 2 steps ahead on behalf of DE.

 

They give us power now and then introduce tougher enemies and more strategic enemies that require us to make difficult choices. Then they can look back and say, 'hey, we gave you the power to compensate, no need to whine, just git gud' (although they'll say it more nicely than I would).

 

This will not balance the game and I'll explain why in the next bit.

 

 

* As mentioned on DevStream that current gap between a new player and "pro" player is immense ergo DE toned down the far ends, so the gap is "alot" narrower (is that even a word) now.

 

* 1-2 Ability builds got too much power with "nightmare" mods and event mods.... Yeah simply we DE didnt see this coming as trend they didnt like it so thats it. This eventually cuts down platinum need for new players and its good thing.

 

* Few warframes (no naming) went over board with either damage or surv to "SO" badly that other warframes started to look totally lackluster and ppls trended towards these few frames. Imagine Old Quick Thinking + Rage, thats how certain frames can get even today.

 

Personally I like this new idea because Im maybe minority here that uses mostly 3-4 Abilities on all frames and this change for me personally is good one. The old system (current as I type this) is biased in the end game to have just 1-3 viable builds cause ppls want things to be easy and just hit one button to "win all". On the new system ppls actually have to think and pick more "support" frames to fill in the old "extreme" OP damage/tank comps, so in a way this brings more to table that the old system did. Ok I give you that old system gave you certain freedom to go out on weird builds and comps with no support at all - but all in all this is good change for larger player base than it was before.

 

It's not exactly a good change. Why?

 

People running the 8 mod builds will see no change.

 

People running 9, i.e. myself. Will now create even more optimized builds.

 

I'll still have my invincibility, I'll still have the ability to floor wipe entire rooms even beyond the 60 minute part. Except now I do it by ranking mods differently and bringing a different assistant (Raksa Kubbie instead of carrier).

 

Gamers can adapt and optimize and that will always happen.

 

Balance will not be fixed by these changes. We'll just get creative. So if we're going to get creative right from the beginning, then they should give us more choices to get creative with.

 

Nova is my current main, because she's hot  very useful and I have already tweaked her build for 8 + 4 abilities. It will be total insanity and that's always a good thing, but it's basically just the same thing. Nothing is really different, I'm still an ultra survivalist and that will happen with plenty of other frames.

 

What I don't want is: more of the same

 

What I do want is: A new possibility for even more stuff to happen.

[SoulEchelon]

Problem is you aren't going to get balance, because they have no excuse to make even more challenging enemies. If they throw them in now, people will complain: hurrr it's too hard.

 

It's happened so many times previously. I'm thinking 2 steps ahead on behalf of DE.

 

They give us power now and then introduce tougher enemies and more strategic enemies that require us to make difficult choices. Then they can look back and say, 'hey, we gave you the power to compensate, no need to whine, just git gud' (although they'll say it more nicely than I would).

 

This will not balance the game and I'll explain why in the next bit.

 

 

 

It's not exactly a good change. Why?

 

People running the 8 mod builds will see no change.

 

People running 9, i.e. myself. Will now create even more optimized builds.

 

I'll still have my invincibility, I'll still have the ability to floor wipe entire rooms even beyond the 60 minute part. Except now I do it by ranking mods differently and bringing a different assistant (Raksa Kubbie instead of carrier).

 

Gamers can adapt and optimize and that will always happen.

 

Balance will not be fixed by these changes. We'll just get creative. So if we're going to get creative right from the beginning, then they should give us more choices to get creative with.

 

Nova is my current main, because she's hot  very useful and I have already tweaked her build for 8 + 4 abilities. It will be total insanity and that's always a good thing, but it's basically just the same thing. Nothing is really different, I'm still an ultra survivalist and that will happen with plenty of other frames.

 

What I don't want is: more of the same

 

What I do want is: A new possibility for even more stuff to happen.

 

You seem to be contradicting yourself alot. You want change but frown upon the particular change DE is giving. You want more flexibility but frown upon the flexibility DE is giving. You demand more power, and yet balk at the fact that the larger percentage of players WILL have more power thanks to this change. Face it - you feel this isn't a good change because it hinders you, and those who use your way of playing (Which, oddly enough? Isn't very flexible nor creative.)

 

I'm extremely glad they're doing this. Not only because it benefits me and the general public, but because it forces players to actually BE versatile with their mods and abilities, instead of being one-trick or even no-trick ponies. Let's also look at this in a developer's point of view. Now that they've reigned in how the mod system works for warframes, they will be able to develop a more balanced system of play. Obviously this won't happen overnight. The changes to the game have been slow, but consistent. Have you not been noticing it? The focus on fixing and reworking abilities? Oberon's recent change should have clued you in. They're trying to rework it all to make each ability balanced and useful. The problem lies in the fact that players seem to believe all that's useful is damage output or AOE utility, which is a problem DE made for themselves to answer.

 

The fact of the matter here is that DE is looking for balance. You literally just said so yourself that you can still godmode your way through everything EVEN WITH the current change. I'm not sure how you thought that would strengthen your stand on the subject.... It simply showed that even with the changes, we're still able to be too damned strong, and having the proposed 10 slots would just be asinine. But that just means there will be more updates to come. More rebalancing, more buffs to certain items, nerfs to others. And you better get ready for it.

Edited October 21, 2014 by SoulEchelon

[AlphaHorseman]

Problem is you aren't going to get balance, because they have no excuse to make even more challenging enemies. If they throw them in now, people will complain: hurrr it's too hard.

 

It's happened so many times previously. I'm thinking 2 steps ahead on behalf of DE.

 

They give us power now and then introduce tougher enemies and more strategic enemies that require us to make difficult choices. Then they can look back and say, 'hey, we gave you the power to compensate, no need to whine, just git gud' (although they'll say it more nicely than I would).

 

This will not balance the game and I'll explain why in the next bit.

 

 

 

It's not exactly a good change. Why?

 

People running the 8 mod builds will see no change.

 

People running 9, i.e. myself. Will now create even more optimized builds.

 

I'll still have my invincibility, I'll still have the ability to floor wipe entire rooms even beyond the 60 minute part. Except now I do it by ranking mods differently and bringing a different assistant (Raksa Kubbie instead of carrier).

 

Gamers can adapt and optimize and that will always happen.

 

Balance will not be fixed by these changes. We'll just get creative. So if we're going to get creative right from the beginning, then they should give us more choices to get creative with.

 

Nova is my current main, because she's hot  very useful and I have already tweaked her build for 8 + 4 abilities. It will be total insanity and that's always a good thing, but it's basically just the same thing. Nothing is really different, I'm still an ultra survivalist and that will happen with plenty of other frames.

 

What I don't want is: more of the same

 

What I do want is: A new possibility for even more stuff to happen.

You realize that you just went against your own stance by saying you've been able to tweak your builds to fit the situations ahead.

 

And your propositions for bosses is still hindering in the fact that you specifically stated that you would depend on either using the survivability mods to protect you, or have to bring a kubrow instead. You stated "the Runner could choose either", the mere fact that you're delegating someone to a set role is not choice, it is a relegation of duties that a player may not want. The fact that you're making them choose either also limits them to the choices you are making them choose from, rather than their own wants and their own playstyles. You aren't giving them the ability to choose their playstyle, you're giving them the illusion of choice, not choice in its freedoms.That right there is limiting, it deducts player choice because you're narrowed into it. 

 

THE MAJORITY of the player base uses a lot of their powers, some use all of them. The minority of players who narrow themselves into one trick pony builds aren't "diversifying builds" in any sense, you've literally just narrowed yourself into using one ability, and one ability only. You can't honestly tell me that the massive influx of new players realize that they can survive without using all 4 powers, these people have simple questions on modding and fusion. Even if they aren't a lot of players are still using 3 powers.

 

For the people that want to use no powers, the beauty of the system is that YOU DON'T HAVE TO use your powers. You don't wanna use them? Sure! Just mod the 8 slots for your survivability then! NO ONE says that you have to mod them to improve your powers.

 

There is no way that it will be "better for all" when change comes, the entirety of human history can atone to that. When change happens, some will be happy, others will not be. The beauty of the incoming change that DE is making is that the majority will be happy, while the minority will have to adjust. The Devs themselves have stated in other threads that this change is for the best of the community, and while a small minority will have to adjust, they will be able to do so.

Edited October 21, 2014 by AlphaHorseman

[Omnimorph]

What DE wanted is completely different from what they GAVE us. They GAVE us the ability to customize and play our warframes in the way they WE wanted to.

 

Problem is that this is now taken away from us. Our CHOICE in the game to do what we want is being taken away so I'd rather we open up for FULL choices rather than being told: Here is how it is, now you adapt. That's a silly argument.

 

 

They may feel they made a mistake, and since the game isn't officially "finished" yet, and it's their prerogative to chop and change.  Anyone who plays the game has to be aware of that, and aware of the possibility that things may change, sometimes drastically. 

 

You say "choices", but the choices available are always only from out of what the devs design.  IOW, you're always adapting to whatever the devs design, you are never in a position with infinite choices. 

 

IOW, the devs of a game always dictate what "full choices" means, and you always have to adapt to that range of choices.