Chroia Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) As title. I believe there's no argument that building for melee channeling is better on, say, a Fragor than say Fang Primes, since the energy cost is a static, per-hit amount. Examples for illustration (made up, naturally): (Legend: *# = 'times current combo-count') Life Multistrike -> +(1/2/3/4)*# life gained, (0.25/0.5/0.75/1)*# energy drained per strike. Multiple Punishment -> +(2.5%/5%/7.5%/10%)*# status chance increase, (0.25/0.5/0.75/1)*# energy drained per strike. Skirmisher's Grip -> +(1/2/3/4)*# stamina gained on enemy kill, (0.25/0.5/0.75/1)*# energy drained per strike. etc. Edited October 21, 2014 by Chroia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealPandemonium Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) The mods that reduce channeling efficiency don't benefit any weapon. Additionally, channeling damage boosts benefit faster weapons in their slide attacks, finishers, and damage-boosted combo hits just as well as they would a slower weapon (arguably more, even.) Edited October 21, 2014 by RealPandemonium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warriorrogue Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 The mods that reduce channeling efficiency don't benefit any weapon. Additionally, channeling damage boosts benefit faster weapons in their slide attacks, finishers, and damage-boosted combo hits just as well as they would a slower weapon (arguably more, even.) I can understand his point, and it's sensible. It's more efficent. 3 hits of 15, vs one of 45 is fine normally, but, channeling, each one uses 5 energy. So, they kinda benefit heavier weapons in that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chroia Posted October 22, 2014 Author Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) 1. The mods that reduce channeling efficiency don't benefit any weapon. 2. Additionally, channeling damage boosts benefit faster weapons in their slide attacks, finishers, and damage-boosted combo hits just as well as they would a slower weapon (3. arguably more, even.) 1. True, but they hit multihitting weapons harder, due to, as Warriorogue says above, being a flat cost for a percentile increase. idk if you're familiar with D&D, but it's the old 'Do you go Greatsword or dual wield for greater damage output?' Bonuses in D&D are flat, unaffected by gear's base stats, so the answer is 'Greatsword until your bonuses reach a certain, mathable point (which I can't recall and cba to reconstruct/google atm) at which point the added flat damage-per-attack surpasses the Greatsword's higher base. But that's already beside the point, and now I'm veering off topic. 2. Proportionately yes, (It's the same +#% increase), absolutely no (that increase translates into a smaller flat increase on the weapon with the lower base damage-per-swing). Or am I misunderstanding you? Also, could you explain 3? I don't follow. ================= I'll elaborate on the OP. I don't envision these mods replacing channeling. (They could, but that'd be a whole different story since they'd either be passive/always-on or requiring a retooling of the existing UI and code framework (e.g. a mode toggle via UI checkbox/mod/stance) or a whole new system (e.g. an automatic per-weapon allocation system).) To my understanding, the combo-counter-based damage multiplier was implemented to give 'quantity'-attack weapons a leg up to compete with 'quality'-attack weapons. This appears borne out by (stance combos for) most 'heavy' weapons tending toward individual hits with sweeping attacks or built in AoE vs. light and.or dual-wield weapons tending towards hitting a single target repeatedly. Of course, I might be wrong about any or all of this. That said, once you hit x2, the increases are few and far between. At which point, things are either dying so you don't care, or not dying, and not much you can do about it. (Particularly given that most such weapons (I hesitate to say all) do not come with much by way of a useful CC AoE air-slam to keep you alive in the face of said things-not-dying.) Not to mention keeping up your combo between engagements (when you're in the latter part of 'life') is... difficult. (Speaking of: Can 'we' (a.k.a. I) get a mod or trait or something that can increase the length of time a counter 'holds' before resetting?) Ironically, this makes 'quality' (e.g. 'heavy') weapons burst and multihit weapons sustain, which is the reverse of how they usually are. I see these mods as a way to give you an 'at-will' boost (just channel for a couple hits mid-chain) in a way that's based on- and building on- existing systems. The scaling bonus from the counter-count gives you added "punch" between 15 and 45, 135, etc. hits, and the scaling cost ensures that you're limited in how you can use it. Of course, none of this will help you melee e.g. Sargus Ruk (as an extreme example), but that's a whole other can of worms. Edited October 22, 2014 by Chroia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShardsSuperior Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I think DE made Melee 2.0 really well. It's definitely true that Channeling mods work better on harder, heavy hitting beasts. They use energy on hit, not from DPS. However, there's also the combo counter, which definitely benefits fast, light weapons. So of course you can build either weapon either way, but the bonuses from damage 2.0 are well spread among different types of weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealPandemonium Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) Slide attacks, jump attacks, etc have their own set damage that is independent of the weapon's base damage. Many of the lighter weapons have even better slide attack/maneuver damage than the heavy weapons, so channeling damage actually benefits them more than it does for heavy weapons because slide attacks (and jump attacks/ground finishers) are the best form of melee attack most of the time anyway (certainly for channeling, which favors using attacks that have the most damage per individual hit.) The concept of heavy melee weapons receiving more benefit from channeling is just a concept that sounds like it should be in place, rather than a reality at the present time. Heavy weapons need a bigger channeling multiplier to give them their own niche of "measured, heavy hits." As it is now they hold no advantage over lighter weapons in any way except niche cases with the Galatine/Scindo/etc spinning combo stance (when you can actually use that without getting slaughtered, such as vs Infested and small clusters of ranged enemies.) Increasing the base channeling multiplier of hea to 85% (up from the current default of 50%) would be a good starting point. Giving them limited coptering ability would also help to make them more attractive and usable overall. Edited October 23, 2014 by RealPandemonium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)MrNishi Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I think DE made Melee 2.0 really well. It's definitely true that Channeling mods work better on harder, heavy hitting beasts. They use energy on hit, not from DPS. However, there's also the combo counter, which definitely benefits fast, light weapons. So of course you can build either weapon either way, but the bonuses from damage 2.0 are well spread among different types of weapons. Not entirely accurate. The first multi-hit attack from Brutal Tide (Just a single-tap melee) only counts as 1 hit on the combo-counter but consumes energy for each landed hit while channeling. The same as Dagger combos like Gnashing Payara. I would like if the multi-hit attacks built the combo up faster (especially just spamming Single tap Brutal tide lunge) but that is not how it works currently in the game. The Combo-hit counter and Channeling-efficiency favor harder hitting individual attacks rather than attacks that register as 1 hit on combo counter but are multi-hit attacks. (Basically they are performing like melee multi-shot in regards to the combo counter but each hit counts towards depleting energy when channeleing.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)MrNishi Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Slide attacks, jump attacks, etc have their own set damage that is independent of the weapon's base damage. Many of the lighter weapons have even better slide attack/maneuver damage than the heavy weapons, so channeling damage actually benefits them more than it does for heavy weapons because slide attacks (and jump attacks/ground finishers) are the best form of melee attack most of the time anyway (certainly for channeling, which favors using attacks that have the most damage per individual hit.) The concept of heavy melee weapons receiving more benefit from channeling is just a concept that sounds like it should be in place, rather than a reality at the present time. Heavy weapons need a bigger channeling multiplier to give them their own niche of "measured, heavy hits." As it is now they hold no advantage over lighter weapons in any way except niche cases with the Galatine/Scindo/etc spinning combo stance (when you can actually use that without getting slaughtered, such as vs Infested and small clusters of ranged enemies.) Increasing the base channeling multiplier of hea to 85% (up from the current default of 50%) would be a good starting point. Giving them limited coptering ability would also help to make them more attractive and usable overall. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azawarau Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) Slide attacks, jump attacks, etc have their own set damage that is independent of the weapon's base damage. Many of the lighter weapons have even better slide attack/maneuver damage than the heavy weapons, so channeling damage actually benefits them more than it does for heavy weapons because slide attacks (and jump attacks/ground finishers) are the best form of melee attack most of the time anyway (certainly for channeling, which favors using attacks that have the most damage per individual hit.) The concept of heavy melee weapons receiving more benefit from channeling is just a concept that sounds like it should be in place, rather than a reality at the present time. Heavy weapons need a bigger channeling multiplier to give them their own niche of "measured, heavy hits." As it is now they hold no advantage over lighter weapons in any way except niche cases with the Galatine/Scindo/etc spinning combo stance (when you can actually use that without getting slaughtered, such as vs Infested and small clusters of ranged enemies.) Increasing the base channeling multiplier of hea to 85% (up from the current default of 50%) would be a good starting point. Giving them limited coptering ability would also help to make them more attractive and usable overall. Its also true that smaller weapons tend to have a smaller AoE for slide attacks and attacks in general Youre not getting as much bang for your buck even with that Edited October 23, 2014 by Azawarau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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