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Are We Still In Beta?


Deruser
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2. Zero impact. So I suppose the thousands of players wanting the melee system to be more refined before Melee 2.0 is gonna be ignored then. They are fixing problems being faced with the multiple things you've listed.

Melee 2.0 is getting directional air combat. Which is a fix to the lack of melee combat against flying enemies.

3. The english there is so broken I can't even read it. But read this https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/28-open-beta-agreement-read-me/

Section 5.

4. The beta is here in order to allow them to make drastic changes to the game. Without it, it would seem odd for such a "finished game" to have a huge overhaul to it.

5. I believe I heard themselves say that they weren't happy with it either, which is why they removed it. You see? THEY DO LISTEN TO US WHEN THINGS AREN'T RIGHT. LIKE IT IS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN.

 

Or how about the precious changes with Excalibur? They hated his LoS for radial blind, and so they got rid of it and are currently re-working it.

 

People voiced out that Ash is not useful enough, and so they altered his ultimate so that it is faster, and made him much more effective in the battlefield. 

 

 

 

6. The mods that could only be obtained during the Cicero Crisis event were made obtainable with the inclusion of Corrupted Vor. So there, your point has been effectively destroyed.

2. Then why after all these improvements you still see posts about giving melee a proper dash, asking for further improvements on block mechanics, improvements on soft lock feature. Things like that could be avoid if de came out and said, melee 2.0 will do that that and that, do you have any other ideas how to improve melee so we can include them, then after release go and say post your opinions about melee 2.0 if theres anything that could use an improvement pls let us know and we will try to address that as soon as we can, then address these problems before next content rolls out. I would have no problem with that, community got a say about new systems and new system comes out improved since ppl who will actually use it ingame got features they wanted from that improvement.

3.Announcing that there will be no wipes means that you treat beta not as testing period but as excuse for poor state of your product. What you dont understand here??

4.Then do them, update 2 mods 2.0, update 3 dmg 2.0, update 4, drops 2.0, update 5 melee 2.0, update 5 stealth 2.0, rescue 2.0 and so on, as fast as possible. Constant improvements of game mechanics would be enough to keep players interested till game comes out, meanwhile you can roll cheap reskins or cosmetics to make some money if you must.

5.Exception that proves the rule, unless whole community decides that something isnt acceptable they wont do this. There were way many more cases where majority said "unacceptable" yet they still arent looked upon.

 

Great, they wanted to fix radial blind, they failed and now need to fix it again, but really if they asked community if los nerf was a good idea they would probably hear that it isnt and would get thousand ideas how to nerf radial blind instead, but they didnt and thats why they need to fix it again.

 

And still ash fans arent satisfied cause still his ultimate isnt useful enough, sure clones were neat idea proposed by community btw, but de again didnt listen to opinions of ash fans and released half baked improvement.

 

6. So my point which said clearly "mods werent exclusive so they were rereleased at later date" was destroyed by "they were rerelased"?? ok i wont ask further questions.

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And since it confuses people, they get angry and want it to be THEIR WAY. NOW.

 

All I can say to them is this:

 

Good luck with getting DE to do what you want when you want it. Last I checked THEY (Digital Extremes) own the game.

 

it's owned by  PWE now acutely  , and calling this game a "beta" is almost impossible with out the " "anymore 

Edited by Ravel7
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2. Then why after all these improvements you still see posts about giving melee a proper dash, asking for further improvements on block mechanics, improvements on soft lock feature. Things like that could be avoid if de came out and said, melee 2.0 will do that that and that, do you have any other ideas how to improve melee so we can include them, then after release go and say post your opinions about melee 2.0 if theres anything that could use an improvement pls let us know and we will try to address that as soon as we can, then address these problems before next content rolls out. I would have no problem with that, community got a say about new systems and new system comes out improved since ppl who will actually use it ingame got features they wanted from that improvement.

3.Announcing that there will be no wipes means that you treat beta not as testing period but as excuse for poor state of your product. What you dont understand here??

4.Then do them, update 2 mods 2.0, update 3 dmg 2.0, update 4, drops 2.0, update 5 melee 2.0, update 5 stealth 2.0, rescue 2.0 and so on, as fast as possible. Constant improvements of game mechanics would be enough to keep players interested till game comes out, meanwhile you can roll cheap reskins or cosmetics to make some money if you must.

5.Exception that proves the rule, unless whole community decides that something isnt acceptable they wont do this. There were way many more cases where majority said "unacceptable" yet they still arent looked upon.

 

Great, they wanted to fix radial blind, they failed and now need to fix it again, but really if they asked community if los nerf was a good idea they would probably hear that it isnt and would get thousand ideas how to nerf radial blind instead, but they didnt and thats why they need to fix it again.

 

And still ash fans arent satisfied cause still his ultimate isnt useful enough, sure clones were neat idea proposed by community btw, but de again didnt listen to opinions of ash fans and released half baked improvement.

 

6. So my point which said clearly "mods werent exclusive so they were rereleased at later date" was destroyed by "they were rerelased"?? ok i wont ask further questions.

2. Because there is ALWAYS room for improvement. This is why the game is beta. It can still be improved until DE feels that nothing else can be improved by it. I never said it is finished, I am saying that DE is still allowing us to provide feedback on their changes and give out ideas to improve them. They take consideration into it, and then begins game development (which by the way, isn't just a simple "Oh look this is a cool idea, let's put it in". It takes a while for an idea to be effectively raised up to the heads of the game development to say "Ok, let's have this in then"). 

 

3.Yeah no. I don't see your reasoning behind this. It makes no sense whatsoever. Just like the "It has market place, so it isn't beta"

 

4. That's what they are f***king doing. They are doing this when the time is right. Stealth 2.0 was a big advancement in the gameplay. So was rescue 2.0. So was damage 2.0. They are doing this in steps to make sure they can flesh it out larger and larger. I don't get what point you are trying to make here.

 

5. Give me an example of one these then.

 

You do realize that the majority of the ash players WANTED this change right? This means that they listened to their fans and keep in mind you cannot satisfy everyone. The ash players who disliked this change are a minority. 

 

6. Oh no you don't. You clearly said that in your original post that exclusive rewards to these events were no longer obtainable, and that this was a point to be used against the idea that  

I then provide evidence that they are indeed coming back in the form of rewards for killing enemies/future quest drops (i.e. Corrupted Vor dropping the mods that were only obtainable through the Cicero Crisis event)

 

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Why are you so bothered about a simple label?

Sure, maybe not F2P MMO games that have this type of open beta really has the standard beta that we are used to, maybe it is more towards a general "development phase" rather than "maintenance phase", but these type of games NEVER reach the latter. An example of this is Star-Trek Online, it is like 10 years old and they are still adding stuff.

Granted, they are not calling it a beta, but it is still not a finished product as we normally see it, it is in constant development.

Actually, Star-Trek online is a perfect example because they use updates like Warframe (except they call them seasons) that does major additions, right now they are in season 9 if I am not mistaken.

 

If looking at both of these games in the old development system then they are both in public beta.

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Perfect transparency isn't going to happen in a world where humans are greedy. It just isn't. Would be nice, but not going to happen.

 

THEY tell us A LOT more than MOST F2P devs. Indeed, more than ANY other devs I have ever dealt with. F2P or not.

 

The thing is, DE is not a large game company. They are not Blizzard or EA. (Or Ubisoft *BARF*) They decided to make a game in away that had never been made to work before. Funded by the players, with input from the players.

 

This whole IDEA had been tried, but had never succeeded for a well made, fully formed game concept before. One of the problems that I know of from my OWN -VERY limited- experience in working on a video game is that things change internally, sometimes on an hour by hour basis.

 

Do they have TIME to keep everyone in the loop on EVERY SINGLE change being made to the system? ESPECIALLY when up to half or 3/4 of those changes will NEVER make it to the game proper?

 

And if they did? Someone would take it and copy it, making 20 crappy clones of the game to flood the market and they would go out of business.

 

The old labels don't apply, but DE can call it whatever they want. It is their game.

That's why I specified what kind of transparency was needed. DE didn't even mention that imprints had dominant and recessive traits until they announced the removal of the latter. A removal based squarely in the fact that lots of paying customers b1tched that the system ripped them off. You would think that after the fiasco surrounding the detron's release someone with access to the front end of the game would have made a note of that little fact.

 

How many of those Devs were promoting an open beta game? Not that failing harder doesn't make this a success by default.

 

DE's small scale just makes this error glare worse. There's a lot fewer levels and departments for things to go astray in after all.

 

Still not an excuse for not giving us basic info on how things work. Wrong info yes, but not no info.

 

I'm not talking about things that are still sitting in DevBuild, I'm talking about things in the public release. It would be akin to using the num pad for movement without telling your user base in any way or allowing the rebinding of keys.

 

Tell me how explaining that you have to fight faction A to spawn special enemy B so it can drop parts for special weapon C endangers DE's hold on the game's code? Or do you think that's such a novel thing that no game has ever tried it before?

 

Again, we can't tell if something is working unless we know how it's supposed to work. We can only take DE's word that they are working, except when they aren't. And when we find out they aren't working DE takes steps to prevent us form finding out things are broken again.

 

The whole point of language is that words mean something to enough people to convey a message. Yes things can shift, but if the change is too fast things break down and fail. Perhaps that's why this whole idea has been tried and failed before, and Wareframe simply isn't as far ahead of the curve as their predecessors in the industry.

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We can also look at it this way. Were we promised a story? Yes. How much do we have? The very beginning?

We have a lot of work to do before that's finished. When we do get a complete story, there is no longer anything ambitious going into the game, then we can argue that the game is 'complete', adding occasional weapons and enemies to keep the community interested. 

With how much potential this game has, and the time it has taken DE to get as far as they have, I wouldn't expect to get too close to that goal until the end of next year or even further.

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We can also look at it this way. Were we promised a story? Yes. How much do we have? The very beginning?

We have a lot of work to do before that's finished. When we do get a complete story, there is no longer anything ambitious going into the game, then we can argue that the game is 'complete', adding occasional weapons and enemies to keep the community interested. 

With how much potential this game has, and the time it has taken DE to get as far as they have, I wouldn't expect to get too close to that goal until the end of next year or even further.

 

and with the new tutorial / ship  they just redid beginning  , DE only adds lore at the bare minimum using it as a framing for a new boss / new frame/ map 

 

Waiting for a story  after more that a year and a half seems crazy  i don't think it's some thing  that we as players will every see / have a complete picture of  ,  least not from warframe the video game - maby a 3rd party authorized  book  

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<snip>

 

Point...

 

Missed...

 

Whatever. You can call it whatever you want. You can call it 'supercalifragleisticexpalidocius' if that is what you want.

 

That DOES NOT change the fact that the people who are screaming about a 'label' of all things do NOT own the game. Therefore, we do not have to listen to you. You want it to change? Buy DE and tell them to change it.

 

No?

 

Then I don't have to listen to the people who are screaming to try and justify saying that a VIDEO GAME developer is wrong in one word of the English language. I have bigger problems, like trying to help make the game better instead of venting my spleen on something inane.

 

And...

 

FYI? They don't HAVE to tell us a DAMNED thing. This is a F2P game. They don't HAVE to be nice to people. They CHOOSE to be. It isn't enough for some. You want more.

 

And frankly? I REALLY hope they don't give it to you.

Edited by Kalenath
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Point...

 

Missed...

 

Whatever. You can call it whatever you want. You can call it 'supercalifragleisticexpalidocius' if that is what you want.

 

That DOES NOT change the fact that the people who are screaming about a 'label' of all things do NOT own the game. Therefore, we do not have to listen to you. You want it to change? Buy DE and tell them to change it.

 

No?

 

Then I don't have to listen to the people who are screaming to try and justify saying that a VIDEO GAME developer is wrong in one word of the English language. I have bigger problems, like trying to help make the game better instead of venting my spleen on something inane.

 

And...

 

FYI? They don't HAVE to tell us a DAMNED thing. This is a F2P game. They don't HAVE to be nice to people. They CHOOSE to be. It isn't enough for some. You want more.

 

And frankly? I REALLY hope they don't give it to you.

So telling your user base how to use your product is bad. Gotcha. Someone should tell the auto industry, they'd save a fortune not printing those fancy manuals.

 

I don't really care if it's in alpha, beta or whatever stage they feel like labeling it beyond some of the simple things that come attached to those labels. Also, I think it's lovely how the person talking in caps is accusing others of screaming.

 

I have not once commented about whether I feel it's this or that or the other thing, just that there are very simple things we as testers require to do our jobs. Since the game's in beta, don't cha know. Unless you're saying it's not. Then the 'have fun guessing guys!' approach is perfectly fine.

 

So how are you supposed to 'help make the game better' when you're not given some of the basic information on how and what the game is supposed to be? Besides posting pure opinion, I mean. Since you not liking something does not equate to anyone else not liking it, after all.

 

Again, it's in any dev team's best interest to give their test base a solid foundation on how the game is supposed to work. Unless they are testing intuitiveness. Warefram's not scoring to good if that's the case. No, they don't have to be nice, it's just in their best interest, since you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

 

But again, I'm terribly sorry that my desire for basic knowledge of how the game is supposed to react and behave so I can supply Support with legitimate bug reports has offended you. We can't all be omniscient after all, or have a direct line to DESteve, or whatever it is that allows you to believe that you know better what Warframe is supposed to be beyond what us filthy plebs are told.

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Onisa, on 21 Oct 2014 - 6:45 PM, said:

DE didn't even mention that imprints had dominant and recessive traits until they announced the removal of the latter.

 

Those were announced back before Kubrows were added to the game, in one of the devstreams (the one in which they revealed that you'd be hatching a Kubrow from an egg then raising it).

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Those were announced back before Kubrows were added to the game, in one of the devstreams (the one in which they revealed that you'd be hatching a Kubrow from an egg then raising it).

Do you recall what stream it was in particular? I remember them saying there would be imprints you could mix and match so you could get the perfect one, but no mention of a punnet square like feature.

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I have a feeling most people in this thread don't really know what a beta is or how it is decided when it ends. Betas do not end when a certain period of time passes, they don't end when a certain amount of profit is made, they don't end when the community reaches a certain size, they don't end when careless users forget to pay attention to what it is that they're agreeing to and miss the open beta agreement, they don't end when random consumers feel like it, etc. Beta stages end when the Dev/Company/whatever decides it does. I've seen people in other threads make the claim that a game stops being in beta as soon as it has a cash shop, this is also false. A game can have as many or as few mechanics as the devs want and still be considered a beta. People who claim the game is only in beta because 'DE would get sued blahblahblahblahBSlegalspeechblahblah' are fooling themselves. This game is in beta because it isn't finished. That's it. The fact that other companies have a bad habit of crapping out incomplete piles of trash doesn't mean DE has to. "They're doing it therefore you/I should to" has got to be the stupidest argument I have seen in a really long time.

Edited by SquirmyBurrito
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Please, give me an example of a MMO without bugs.

 

EVERY piece of computer software that is published to the masses has bugs.

 

Anyone who says otherwise is selling something. Probably computer software.

 

The old 'fix one thing, break ten more' gets REALLY bad when they release BIG updates. HOW many bugs did they fix in update 14? OMG the breaks...

 

That the game runs at ALL is a testament to human stubbornness and ingenuity.

Edited by Kalenath
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They can claim we are still in beta.  We aren't.  Far from it.  And for a long time.

 

Once they start taking your money, the game stops being beta.  I dont think DE has any intention of lifting that tag from the game, for whatever reason.  Im not sure if there has been any discussion around an actual release date.  And when the game releases, it will just be a new content patch, bug fixes, a few new this and that.  Nothing earth shattering.

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They can claim we are still in beta.  We aren't.  Far from it.  And for a long time.

 

Once they start taking your money, the game stops being beta.  I dont think DE has any intention of lifting that tag from the game, for whatever reason.  Im not sure if there has been any discussion around an actual release date.  And when the game releases, it will just be a new content patch, bug fixes, a few new this and that.  Nothing earth shattering.

No no no no no. 

This logic makes no sense whatsoever.

They need the money in order to FUND the game. 

 

Your logic makes no sense, have a nice day.

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They can claim we are still in beta.  We aren't.  Far from it.  And for a long time.

 

Once they start taking your money, the game stops being beta.  I dont think DE has any intention of lifting that tag from the game, for whatever reason.  Im not sure if there has been any discussion around an actual release date.  And when the game releases, it will just be a new content patch, bug fixes, a few new this and that.  Nothing earth shattering.

 

Logic this flawed deserves a proper answer.

 

'NI!'

 

Now go cross the Lake of Fate and make sure you answer ALL of the questions TWENTY-EIGHT!

 

(Edit) And since YOU obviously OWN the game and IP, can you please fix some stuff for me?

Edited by Kalenath
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Onisa, on 22 Oct 2014 - 9:16 PM, said:

Do you recall what stream it was in particular? I remember them saying there would be imprints you could mix and match so you could get the perfect one, but no mention of a punnet square like feature.

 

Not sure of the exact stream, but I recall being quite elated at the announcement, given that that is how alleles work in real life.

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Do you recall what stream it was in particular? I remember them saying there would be imprints you could mix and match so you could get the perfect one, but no mention of a punnet square like feature.

Not sure of the exact stream, but I recall being quite elated at the announcement, given that that is how alleles work in real life.

 

 

unfortunately given how DE likes to work push content too fast and only fix it  6 months to  a year latter  if it's  not fixed / added to  in the first 3 weeks not likely till the 2.0  

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There´s this state in a game, where there are major issues, be it design flaws or decisions made in the past about game mechanics, that won´t be solved, ever, even if the devs knows- and admits them. That´s mostly when the game(play) is stable enough to provide steady income. Than, instead of fixing those "issues" (because they are time/money consuming) they need to push out content to please the paying masses and get the money to pay their own bills.

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Not sure of the exact stream, but I recall being quite elated at the announcement, given that that is how alleles work in real life.

Then I suppose it's like when they stated they want solo play to be just as viable as team play. I know they said it but I can't for the life of me pin point where or when.

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Onisa, on 23 Oct 2014 - 7:21 PM, said:

Then I suppose it's like when they stated they want solo play to be just as viable as team play. I know they said it but I can't for the life of me pin point where or when.

 

Well, I know what else was announced in the stream so I could find it if I looked, but I'm busy enough as it is.

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