Slot Competition Is An Issue, And It Will Only Get Worse.

[SquirmyBurrito]

I'll keep this simple as this should really only be a reminder for what is obvious
 

Some mods just aren't competitive enough. I will make no definitive claims on statistics but I am pretty sure it wouldn't be wrong to assume that mods like Warm Coat rarely get used. If the upcoming ability augments are going to take the form of mods, this will only make things worse. At first I thought adding dedicated Vazarin slots might solve the issue, but even among the Vazarin, there exists a huge gap between what is and what isn't worth slotting. Part of the issue is that the situations that many of these mods are for is unpredictable, and another issue is their relative lack of power. Maybe if they had drastically lowered costs, they'd be more popular? Maybe you could turn these mods into frame augments and make that system independent of the mod system... This upcoming change on ability mods will most likely only have mixed results with the majority of the cases being that these mods continue to get ignored. Just figured I'd address that potential argument.

 

I hope this thread is in the right place.

 

Edit: I added color to the main point I'm making so fewer people will hop in and completely miss the point.

Edited October 21, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[immolator1001]

To me it sounds like the changes will only improve most endgame builds by allowing you to have the 2 powers that you got rid of to fit other mods. As for normal builds it'll basically just be a straight improvement since they won't waste 4 slot and a bunch of points on ability mods.

 

Could a tactical slot work? Probably, but it would have to be tactical only, but that could also include the new "augmentations" coming with factions.

[Vargras]

Slot competition isn't as big of an issue as you might think, as very few mods are truly mandatory in any capacity. Do you need Flow? It's nice to have, sure, but you can still perform well without it. Same goes for many other mods.

 

You'll find a way. It won't be nearly as hard as you think.

[Deviantis]

I think you should just wait until u15 before tying up your undies into a knot.

The cost of power never really has a huge impact(ie if quick thinking cost 32 mod points people would still use it). The same works backwards that even if warm coat cost 0 points, or even if it gave 7 mod points, it's still a waste of a mod slot except for some specialized cases.

[JohnProdman]

I disagree with you on this matter.

 

I think having players struggle to decide on what to include on their very limited build is a good thing. We'll definitely be seeing more varied gameplay in the future.

[AlphaHorseman]

All we can do now, is wait and see.

 

But I wouldn't mind having the frame augments available to me without having to sacrifice a mod slot for them.

[SquirmyBurrito]

To me it sounds like the changes will only improve most endgame builds by allowing you to have the 2 powers that you got rid of to fit other mods. As for normal builds it'll basically just be a straight improvement since they won't waste 4 slot and a bunch of points on ability mods.

 

Could a tactical slot work? Probably, but it would have to be tactical only, but that could also include the new "augmentations" coming with factions.

 

How will that make mods like warm coat any more competitive? 

 

Slot competition isn't as big of an issue as you might think, as very few mods are truly mandatory in any capacity. Do you need Flow? It's nice to have, sure, but you can still perform well without it. Same goes for many other mods.

 

You'll find a way. It won't be nearly as hard as you think.

 

But how does that make mods like warm coat any more competitive. I agree that no/very few mods are mandatory, the issue is that most mods are incredibly competitive. Mods like Warm Coat are widely agreed to be too situational to be worth the slot.

 

I think you should just wait until u15 before tying up your undies into a knot.

The cost of power never really has a huge impact(ie if quick thinking cost 32 mod points people would still use it). The same works backwards that even if warm coat cost 0 points, or even if it gave 7 mod points, it's still a waste of a mod slot except for some specialized cases.

 

I was going to ask if you read the OP, but your reference to Warm Coat implies you did. The only option I'm left with is to assume that you just didn't comprehend what it is that I'm saying. The power cost suggestion was just me spit balling. It wasn't something that I thought would fix the problem entirely.

 

I disagree with you on this matter.

 

I think having players struggle to decide on what to include on their very limited build is a good thing. We'll definitely be seeing more varied gameplay in the future.

 

Players having to struggle to decide what to include in their very limited build only raises the competition. This makes mods like Warm Coat even less likely to be slotted. Do you actually disagree with what I said or do you disagree with what you think I said? What I said is that mods like Warm Coat aren't competitive, and the upcoming removal of ability mods will not suddenly make them more so. Especially not if Augments take the form of mods.

[Azawarau]

It literally only gives less slots for builds that used one power

 

Everything else is better

Edited October 22, 2014 by Azawarau

[Blakrana]

Some mods just aren't competitive enough.

 

This claim is indeed correct.

 

Warm Coat, Mag-Lev, Intruder, the varied Resistance mods and the rest; they all have the barest of applications. Even the Resistances, or the cute mods like Handspring, have no 'absolutely must' to them.

 

Like you note, the circumstances are indeed random. I play through so few missions with Ice in them that when they do happen, I spend at best a moment or two to go 'bugger, ice', before I crack on with it. This is whether I'm playing frames that care less about shields (Frost, Valkyr, Saryn), or frames that rather like shields, like Trinity or Ember. The fact I don't have Warm Coat installed is because well...every mission I'm going to be making use out of things like Stretch or Vitality in some way. Warm Coat? 12% ain't going to make or break me.

 

Same issue with Intruder. Short of them making Hacking progressively harder in the star chart, perhaps have 'nested' ones near the outer Solar System/Void (that is to say, complete one, then complete 1/2 more before it's 'finished' whilst using the same time limit for them all), there is nothing really making it essential. And if the easy factor wasn't high enough, we can also make Ciphers to just do it in a resource expenditure. So there's that not helping.

 

Who needs Mag-lev when we can slide-jump-slide-spin-slide-repeat? There is just no way I can conceive of it being something someone thinks about. I mean...at best, longer slide attack window? I've got nothing.

 

Compare this with the Elemental pure and Elemental|Status mods.

 

For status strong weapons, the latter set have significant potential. I currently look at my Latron Prime and feel pretty good about having around 86%~ Status chance. Same with my Akmagnus. Comparatively, my Akbolto are just better off using pure Elemental mods as they've got so little status to work with, may as well make the shot count as much as possible.

 

So, the simple solution in theory is to buff the inferior Warframe utility mods, right?

 

Nope. You can buff Warm Coat to 100% and it still won't be worth slotting in because the circumstance is random. Short of entire mission types, planets or Voids having a fixed Ice Condition, there will not be a use for it.

 

For example, Excavation; as we gather Cryotic, it could gradually affect the environment after a threshold is hit. Shields start to get weaker. The cold is creeping in, hoarfrost growing on our very bodies. Long Excavation would then not only become even more of a challenge for the elite Tenno among us, but it'd also become an argument for Warm Coat to be pretty damned useful.

 

Even then, it wouldn't be essential. But it'd be an actual choice then.

 

Intruder, same sort of thing; harder hacking puzzles, more of a real option.

 

The last thing to do however, is making parts of a modding array completely dedicated to singular mod categories. Even then, Auras, Stances and Warframe abilities are entirely optional if you so desire. To not use something is, in and of itself, a choice.

 

Utility mods are, by contrast, completely inferior. I know this won't exactly win me any friends, but the fact of the matter is, I am happier with only 8 slots to freely choose what I put in them, than 10 slots where two of those slots can only be used by mods I would never use. In practice, I would still only have 8 and wasted space.

 

Forcing a choice is not encouraging a choice. Choices you are forced into are not choices you feel good about. In the event of us keeping 10 slots with 2 literally unable to equip anything else, I can safely say that the odds of people slotting in Maglev or Intruder or Warm Coat are practically nil.

 

Why? Because the mod points those would take up would just not be worth it, when compared to saving those points for stronger mods in the 8 slots I can make a choice with.

 

Yes. Mods compete with each other for a lot of spaces and a lot of them haven't got a hope in hell of being worth the expenditure. The answer as I see it then is to not force their use upon people in the name of 'increasing diversity', but to address the core issues around these mods; the fact that the utility they offer is weak and unreliable, and cannot be planned around being needed.

 

Summary: The uncompetitive nature of Utility mods is a problem more with their mechanics, and how they are not able to positively affect a build on a reliable basis. Answering this problem via the addition of Utility only slots would merely see them ignored as they wouldn't be worth the points spent, again highlighting the issue.

 

Instead, in order to improve the worth of such mods, the mechanics they relate to must become reliable, predictable and provide a real choice when building a frame. This would be achieved through creating reliable missions encountering these problems.

 

Forcing the usage of inferior mods will only exacerbate existing issues in build diversity limits, even if it appears to be giving 'more' choice.

[SquirmyBurrito]

It literally only gives less slots for builds that used one power

 

Everything else is better

 

Did you read the OP in full?

 

snip

 

Completely agree with everything you said except that bit on Maglev. It actually increases slide speed which means you're faster. Combining with with Rush makes the Sprint-->Slide-->Repeat tactic even faster. You could also use it instead of Rush if you wanted.

[Deviantis]

Corpus ice planet is always...well, frozen, so warm coat is a possible use there; however, it's infinitely more beneficial to put something like Vigor or Diamond Skin in my opinion.

 

As previously stated in the thread, there are other mods in the game that are mostly pointless except for specific scenarios (shield tanking corpus ice planet because reasons). Specializing is a choice, and choices are what makes Warframe fun for me.

 

And my previous post was indeed a bit confused on what your point was (paragraphing separate ideas would help). I thought you implied U15 will make warm coat a worse choice, to which I responded nothing can make warm coat a worse choice.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Deviantis

[Kruglov]

I think an easy fix would be to take rarely used mods and make them dual-stat.

 

For example take warm coat and instead of it being just:

 

12% resistance to ice

 

Make it something that helps in general like:

 

12% resistance to ice

20% shield capacity

 

or

 

12% resistance to ice

12% increased fire damage

 

 

 

Make the crappy mods into mediocre dual stat mods and I guarantee people will find ways to make them useful.

[Blakrana]

It actually increases slide speed which means you're faster. Combining with Rush makes the Sprint-->Slide-->Repeat tactic even faster. You could also use it instead of Rush if you wanted.

 

I'll be honest, I've not once considered using Maglev in any circumstance. I did use Warm Coat back when I was starting and had literally nothing else to do with my mod slots. Heck I think I've used them, Utility mods, more as fusion fodder than anything else.

 

So, hey, learned something new.

 

At any rate, it really does come down to an issue in mechanics. That and the ratio of odd numbers. Personally I'd be happy if everything came in multiples of 5; Critical Delay really could be rounded up...

 

Warm Coat's 12% is...what, giving us 62% shields compared to 50%. 15-25% could be...tempting...if there was ever a situation it came up regularly enough. 75% of your shields in Ice conditions seems more...tangible a choice.

 

Who knows. Like I said before, the idea is fine for Utility mods, but the chance that utility applies/is necessary is practically non-existent.

[Azawarau]

Did you read the OP in full?

No

 

I posted in the wrong thread after waking up

[Archistopheles]

The devs got really defensive last time we brought it up... Granted it was a miscommunication, but I don't think the devs want to taco 'bout it for awhile. The best thing we've gotten so far has been... broken mods for new players. *sigh* I hope I'm wrong, though. I hope we can have the type of customization that this mod system is capable of.

[SquirmyBurrito]

The devs got really defensive last time we brought it up... Granted it was a miscommunication, but I don't think the devs want to taco 'bout it for awhile. The best thing we've gotten so far has been... broken mods for new players. *sigh* I hope I'm wrong, though. I hope we can have the type of customization that this mod system is capable of.

 

It seemed like Steve got upset because the post in question was insulting in nature. My post isn't (trying to be) insulting.

[Archistopheles]

It seemed like Steve got upset because the post in question was insulting in nature. My post isn't (trying to be) insulting.

Correct, but it's been more than that. Scott was defensive about the mods too when asked about "bandaid" mods. Even when push came to shove, we got broken mods like Ammo Drum. In other words, we complained about it, and they gave us worse mods.

We complained that 120% slash damage was almost never equal to 90% of certain mods, but the devs politely told us the math was there, and to deal with it. Again, it might be my personal interpretation, but they seem very defensive about their mod system. I dunno why.

[Azawarau]

Now that im back

 

What i was originally going to type was the changes arent making the issue better or worse
 

Its the same

 

Even if we added 5 slots itd be used on anything but those mods

 

The issue isnt the modspace entirely

 

Its that the mods have very limited use and arent particularly useful for what they could be used for

[SquirmyBurrito]

Correct, but it's been more than that. Scott was defensive about the mods too when asked about "bandaid" mods. Even when push came to shove, we got broken mods like Ammo Drum. In other words, we complained about it, and they gave us worse mods.

We complained that 120% slash damage was almost never equal to 90% of certain mods, but the devs politely told us the math was there, and to deal with it. Again, it might be my personal interpretation, but they seem very defensive about their mod system. I dunno why.

 

Ah yeah, I had forgotten about that. I guess I'll have to think long and hard on how I can word this without angering them. The current OP isn't going to cut it.

 

Now that im back

 

What i was originally going to type was the changes arent making the issue better or worse

 

Its the same

 

Even if we added 5 slots itd be used on anything but those mods

 

The issue isnt the modspace entirely

 

Its that the mods have very limited use and arent particularly useful for what they could be used for

 

I agree, but I also think that decreasing the modspace is going to make it worse.

[Azawarau]

Ah yeah, I had forgotten about that. I guess I'll have to think long and hard on how I can word this without angering them. The current OP isn't going to cut it.

 

 

I agree, but I also think that decreasing the modspace is going to make it worse.

The other part is there arent many ways to really make them useful

 

Enemies dont use specific elements all that often nd the % are meh...

 

Adding utility slots is the best theyll get i think

[SquirmyBurrito]

The other part is there arent many ways to really make them useful

 

Enemies dont use specific elements all that often nd the % are meh...

 

Adding utility slots is the best theyll get i think

 

I was thinking about this while I was at work. We really need more normal (non-eximus) elemental enemies.

[Qmoney]

To me it sounds like the changes will only improve most endgame builds by allowing you to have the 2 powers that you got rid of to fit other mods. As for normal builds it'll basically just be a straight improvement since they won't waste 4 slot and a bunch of points on ability mods.

 

Could a tactical slot work? Probably, but it would have to be tactical only, but that could also include the new "augmentations" coming with factions.

 

It actually kills most endgame builds because most of the best builds only maximized one ability  For mulitiplayer, very few frames could contribute as much to the team with more than one power, unless the mods for maximizing both were the same (used the same corrupted mods without significant penalty).  Some exceptions exist, such as a tanking mirage, which is best with abilities 1 and 3 maximized for duration and strength. 

 

For example, there is absolutely no point to giving me back the nekros abilities besides desecrate, because I still only maximize it for range and efficiency, which kills all the other abilities (nekros is 4 LOOT + LIFE SUPPORT).  They effectively removed one warframe slot from every frame for me, and nerfed the abilities until level 30.

 

They also nerfed negative nova, and positive nova for that matter.  Mol. Prime or GTFO.

 

Then, they gave me 46 forma back that I have no use for.

[VDeorsum]

It actually kills most endgame builds because most of the best builds only maximized one ability  For mulitiplayer, very few frames could contribute as much to the team with more than one power, unless the mods for maximizing both were the same (used the same corrupted mods without significant penalty).  Some exceptions exist, such as a tanking mirage, which is best with abilities 1 and 3 maximized for duration and strength. 

 

For example, there is absolutely no point to giving me back the nekros abilities besides desecrate, because I still only maximize it for range and efficiency, which kills all the other abilities (nekros is 4 LOOT + LIFE SUPPORT).  They effectively removed one warframe slot from every frame for me, and nerfed the abilities until level 30.

 

They also nerfed negative nova, and positive nova for that matter.  Mol. Prime or GTFO.

 

Then, they gave me 46 forma back that I have no use for.

THIS^

same point here for me, this change it's terrible in my opinion

[Noble_Cactus]

They also nerfed negative nova, and positive nova for that matter.  Mol. Prime or GTFO.

 

No they didn't. In fact, you can put an Overextended on there and benefit both Speed Nova and Antimatter Drop, since the explosion radius of the latter is based on Range.

[FredIsHere]

The reason negative nova was nerfed massively in some eyes is they ran an unmodded m. prime to maximize the speed buff.